Strange coincidence between Z and GT

[Xeztin]

Baby, Shadow Dragons, and Fan-made Xicor from Toyble's AF are the most original ideas I've ever seen post DBZ.

[fadeddreams5]

Bebi and the Shadow Dragons aren't very original ideas at all. Neither is SSJ4. A tuffle villain, villains related to the dragon balls, and a form that combines SSJ with Oozaru. I'm sure many fans thought of all of this before GT was a thing. And the series executed all of it horribly.

As for the topic, the Bebi saga borrows some elements from the Garlic jr one.

[DNA]

We'll see how it goes. This entire 'Gods' arc has at least half as much material to go I think so there's time, but there's definitely no real monumental threat so far in sight which absolutely was the staple of the show and one of the significant reasons why people love the 3 core Z sagas so much.

Exactly, and it started way back on Piccolo Daimao. It's threats that make it exciting. This sort of stuff is okay too, but not for full arcs. The movies were okay, the arcs are dragging and don't even alter anything significant. There was no point to the whole deal about Tagoma and Ginyu, that resolution felt like a gigantic cop-out. Was it all for giving Vegeta the bragging rights of having killed all Ginyu Tokusentai members?

Baby, Shadow Dragons, and Fan-made Xicor from Toyble's AF are the most original ideas I've ever seen post DBZ.

Baby is very similar to stuff we've already seen. Hatchiyack was really original. Shadow Dragons were too.

[Xeztin]

Bebi and the Shadow Dragons aren't very original ideas at all. Neither is SSJ4. A tuffle villain, villains related to the dragon balls, and a form that combines SSJ with Oozaru. I'm sure many fans thought of all of this before GT was a thing. And the series executed all of it horribly.

As for the topic, the Bebi saga borrows some elements from the Garlic jr one.

No idea is original then right? There was plenty of fan-art revolving around SSG as well with the design being drastically different mind you but the general idea was the same. Heck, I think Absalon's "Holy Super Saiyan" is pretty much a renamed "God" form and it was out way before BOG was even thought about. We have 12 Universes (Multiverse fan-manga already did this) and Freeza being resurrected has been done and talked about since he first died. I think after 18 years, fans wanted more so they came up with their own stories. There is no idea that hasn't been wrote about, drawn, or at least thought of by now Dragon Ball Related. Except for Whis and the nipple guy... I'm sure those 2 characters could only come from the mind of Toriyama as I cringe when I think about where his mind was at when he created the nipple dude

[fadeddreams5]

The concept of god ki and 12 universes that possess a twin are actually pretty original. The characterizations of Beerus and Whis are a billion times fresher than anything I've seen a fan come up with since DB ended too. I never heard of planet-shaped dragon balls that co-exist in dual universes before either, nor do I know what Toriyama has in store for them.

And that's coming from someone who hates Super.

There are infinite original ideas to be made with this sort of franchise. It's just people tend to base their ideas on pre-established concepts already in the series (tuffles, saiyans, demon realm, old villains, aliens invading Earth, etc.), which is what GT did and why I see it as unoriginal. That said, you don't need to be original to make a brilliant and/or enjoyable story, but GT's execution was terrible too. =P

[Xeztin]

I agree, GT really dropped the ball when it came down to being executed right and it only scratched the surface of it's potential during its run. I See what you mean by basing their ideas off already existing material such as SSJ5 obviously coming from SSJ4. AF was cool to me for a long time, but after Young jiji's 17 volumes I believe I am burnt out, however I'd like to have seen Toyble complete his version.

[Basaku]

It's not like anyone will be able to really prove Baby/Shadow Dragons were or were not an original idea, we're talking mid-90s. Only handful of documented or preserved fanart/fiction there to check. Doesn't matter. Both concept were great and I have a hard time believing many/any fans thought of DB wishes amounting to negative energy that gets released in form of evil dragons before GT did it period. Tuffles revenge/Baby perhaps, but that's pure speculation too.

Like you've said, it all comes down to execution. Super got a lot of great lore expansion and I agree that the way Toriyama's done the multiverse thing is fresh, exciting and interesting, as is Beerus/Whis, Gods of Destruction concept etc. But Super suffers from many similar execution issues, perhaps as much as GT did and some of them Toriyama is directly responsible for - lack of good and relevant roles and/or plot for supporting cast.

[fadeddreams5]

I think I'll take back saying that the Shadow Dragon concept was unoriginal. It was pretty unique.

[MajinMan]

The Shadow Dragon stuff was pretty good as a closing arc, but the whole "Goku must do EVERYTHING in the series" disease made it a failure just like the rest of GT's ideas.

[Hellspawn28]

Okay, I've been harbouring this opinion for a long time now and reading this thread, I have to comment here.

He's a character who's always either hungry, sleeping or pissed off. He makes gods tremble in fear. Who am I talking about here? Beerus or Buu?
Beerus is not an original villain, he's just a rehashed Majin Buu.

Beerus and Buu had one thing in common which is that they love eating food. Otherwise, they are different since they have different goals in mind. Beerus has reasons to destroy while Buu does it for fun.

[Xeztin]

The Shadow Dragon stuff was pretty good as a closing arc, but the whole "Goku must do EVERYTHING in the series" disease made it a failure just like the rest of GT's ideas.

That's what bugged me the most, If GT had an official sequel they'd bring Goku back to life yet again (Assuming Goku died at the end, pure speculation). I hope we get closure with Goku and Vegeta if we continue on past EOZ, they don't have to die but it'd be nice if the series had a new cast of main characters like Uub and Pan. It'd be cool to see Uub make his own cast of friends along his adventures but the only way Goku would sit out a major fight is if he indeed died and had no chance of ever reviving.

[DNA]

Beerus and Buu had one thing in common which is that they love eating food. Otherwise, they are different since they have different goals in mind. Beerus has reasons to destroy while Buu does it for fun.

All of their traits are similar. They're both childish, both quick to anger, they both love food and demand food all the time. And they both destroy planets for no reason. What reason does Beerus have really? He's supposed to be the God of Destruction, yet he destroys planets because he feels like it.

As for those who are saying that you can't prove Baby isn't original. What are you talking about? It's Hatchiyack all over again. With a sprinkle of Garlic Junior (making everyone a villain) and Majin Buu (taking over bodies and making Vegeta evil again).

[Kid Buu]

Okay, I've been harbouring this opinion for a long time now and reading this thread, I have to comment here.

He's a character who's always either hungry, sleeping or pissed off. He makes gods tremble in fear. Who am I talking about here? Beerus or Buu?
Beerus is not an original villain, he's just a rehashed Majin Buu.

You know who should have been the God of Destruction? Whis. He's an actual original character, he's super fun and has a great personality. Beerus shouldn't even have existed as far as I'm concerned. What a boring, annoying, childish character.

This has been the problem with Super and will continue to be. There is no threat. None at all. Beerus is not threatening, he's just an asshole. Freeza coming back wasn't threatening at all, things only went wrong because Goku and Vegeta were too busy toying with Freeza. And the tournament has no threat from the beginning since as Goku puts it, the worse that can happen is that they get transferred from one universe to the other and nobody cares.

I agree. Toriyama is just as bad when it comes to recycling. Whis as the main villain might have made things more interest.

[Lord Beerus]

He's a character who's always either hungry, sleeping or pissed off. He makes gods tremble in fear. Who am I talking about here? Beerus or Buu?
Beerus is not an original villain, he's just a rehashed Majin Buu.

You also forget that he loves to fight, he's very sociable, he can be merciful and can also be quite patient. And quite frankly, your description could also easily apply to Vegeta, too.

This has been the problem with Super and will continue to be. There is no threat. None at all. Beerus is not threatening, he's just an asshole. Freeza coming back wasn't threatening at all, things only went wrong because Goku and Vegeta were too busy toying with Freeza. And the tournament has no threat from the beginning since as Goku puts it, the worse that can happen is that they get transferred from one universe to the other and nobody cares.

The time placement of Super does the show no favours though, to be fair. If the events of Battle Of Gods were retold after EOZ, rather than set during the ten year time skip, then the stakes would have been way higher because there is much less certainty about how the events would end.

[DNA]

You also forget that he loves to fight, he's very sociable, he can be merciful and can also be quite patient. And quite frankly, your description could also easily apply to Vegeta, too.

Vegeta isn't always hungry, nor sleeping. He doesn't make gods tremble in fear. The only trait that applies to Vegeta is the pissed off. Nice try.
Majin Buu also loves to fight. And if you want to extend, Mister Buu is also sociable and eventually becomes really popular. Beerus bitch slaps Blooma for shouting at him because he crashed her party and was beating the shit out of everyone because kitty didn't get his pudding. Really sociable.
The only trait that doesn't apply to Buu is patient, which Beerus also isn't. He summoned Vegeta and Goku back from the dimension they were training in because he couldn't wait to get more pizza, just to name the most recent of many instances of his impatience. Face it, Beerus is a more communicative Majin Buu, nothing more.

It's okay if you like him, I don't care. I mean, I like Baby and he's nothing more than a mishmash of other characters and arcs. I didn't dislike Beerus the first time I saw Battle of Gods, but the more I see of him, the more I can't stand him. Especially the part where he's supposedly responsible for tons of unresolved plot points that happened in the series before. Such a huge cop-out.

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta isn't always hungry, nor sleeping. He doesn't make gods tremble in fear.The only trait that applies to Vegeta is the pissed off. Nice try.

He made Kaioshin practically piss his pants when he made Kaioshin realise just how strong he and the rest of the Saiyans were when battling Babidi's minions.

Majin Buu also loves to fight.

Since when? Majin Boo has only ever been shown to interested in fighting if he's baited into it with the promise of food. Hell, Majin Boo slept through the events of Resurrection F.

And if you want to extend, Mister Buu is also sociable and eventually becomes really popular. Beerus bitch slaps Blooma for shouting at him because he crashed her party and was beating the shit out of everyone because kitty didn't get his pudding. Really sociable.

Are we going to ignore that the only reason Beerus got pissed to begin with was because Majin Boo decided to be a greedy asshole and then chose to spite Beerus when politely asked several times just for one pudding cup when Majin Boo had a tray of like ten of them? Hell, at the end of Battle Of Gods, Beerus apologized for all the ruckus that he caused after his battle with SSJ God Goku ended and he left Earth peacefully. And Majin Boo never apologized for maliciously upsetting Beerus and getting him angry in the first place. Beerus hardly even crashed the party to begin with. He came to Earth looking for the Super Saiyan God, then Bulma spotted him and Whis, and assuming they were Vegeta's friends, she invited him and Whis to join the party and they did. Beerus ate some food, had some drinks and socialised with everyone while waiting for the Super Saiyan God to appear. Beerus caused zero trouble until Majin Boo decided to go full Eric Cartman send Beerus into a foul mood.

[fadeddreams5]

Which Majin Buu are we even talking about?

I definitely see a big resemblance between him and Super Buu. The latter impatiently requested to fight a strong fighter, just as Beerus craved a SSJG challenge. Super Buu is quite cunning, as is Beerus. Both are obsessed with food--Super Buu's tantrum over not getting his candy distorted a dimension, while Beerus' tantrum over the lack of pudding put the Earth in danger.

Beerus is a more articulate and less evil (sort of?) Super Buu.

[DNA]

Were we discussing how movie villains and latter arc villains remind us of manga villains or how exactly the same they are? I mean, it's pretty clear to me, and apparently more people, that Beerus is extremely similar to Majin Buu, too much so. Is he exactly the same? Of course not. Every villain has at least some differences.