Comparing their fighting styles

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

To argue that Gohan is solely a powerhouse who exploits the weakness of his enemy doesn't seem fair if you ask me.

That would be completely inaccurate based on his performance consistency because Gohan never fights like that at all, he knows Martial arts but he doesn't actually know how to fight. People only assume he's a certain way because they see him when he's briefly overpowering opponents under the rare advantage of raw strength, thus people equate it to something they want to see him do in comparison to what he doesn't do and then assume, what they want to see from him is what he lost now. When really Gohan can keep up but he can't fight. He reacts. Gohan in the Cell games then wasn't a smart fighter either contrary to what people think. He just had that much of a sudden gap above Cell. When Cell returned stronger, he was caught off guard and terrified. The same thing happened when he fought Super Buu. He was all talk and happened to be stronger until Super Buu closed the gap and easily picked him apart. Gohan is just rage-boosts and misused "potential" hes not a fighter at all. I mean even when Krillin retired he was still far more competent in technique than he is. He's more instinctual when fighting than Goku is which is his own credit but thats only what keeps him usable when they need him.

[Lionel]

To argue that Gohan is solely a powerhouse who exploits the weakness of his enemy doesn't seem fair if you ask me.

That would be completely inaccurate based on his performance consistency because Gohan never fights like that at all, he knows Martial arts but he doesn't actually know how to fight. People only assume he's a certain way because they see him when he's briefly overpowering opponents under the rare advantage of raw strength, thus people equate it to something they want to see him do in comparison to what he doesn't do and then assume, what they want to see from him is what he lost now. When really Gohan can keep up but he can't fight. He reacts. Gohan in the Cell games then wasn't a smart fighter either contrary to what people think. He just had that much of a sudden gap above Cell. When Cell returned stronger, he was caught off guard and terrified. The same thing happened when he fought Super Buu. He was all talk and happened to be stronger until Super Buu closed the gap and easily picked him apart. Gohan is just rage-boosts and misused "potential" hes not a fighter at all. I mean even when Krillin retired he was still far more competent in technique than he is. He's more instinctual when fighting than Goku is which is his own credit but thats only what keeps him usable when they need him.

I'm sure Yamcha appears like a substandard fighter as well to many viewers of the series. The extent of their comprehension of his skills is marred by his susceptibility as a guinea pig for the benefit of appearances. As I explained previously -- the pool of information regarding other characters is severely limited compared with Goku. Certain avenues of combat may not have been available for people to see. Gohan has the unfortunate coincidence of being either severely stronger or severely weaker than those around him. Moments of stupidity or shortsightedness are widespread and commitable by everyone in fights, including "smart fighters" like Piccolo and Goku. In fact, their adaptability under harsh conditions might arguably be considered less than someone like Krillin who is confronted with adverse conditions in fights very frequently. Given the same opportunities to fight at an even level, I think Gohan would perform admirably if Krillin's verbal indications ring of any truth.

Also something else to factor is the widespread "evolution" of combat to a galactic scale from the more earthly hand to hand origins of DB conveniently allows for certain truths to go unfettered.

[apex_pretador]

Half of your statements don't make sense. How is Goku vs. #19 close? Goku was utterly decimating him. The only reason he lost is due to the heart virus. So we can pretty much chalk this down to it being a possible curbstomp if Goku wasn't sick.

But we are not talking about a "possible" fight. We are talking about actual fight.

Against Tenshinhan Goku also had a significant advantage. The only reason the fight became more even is because A) Cheating diminished Goku's strength. and B) Goku couldn't fly so he had to use his Kamehameha to do any air battle.

But the fight overall was very even. That you agree with.

Versus Daimao the first time it was a curbstomp against Goku but when Goku powers-up it is actually a curbstomp in the opposite direction. The only reason this fight was fairly close is because Piccolo weakened Goku by damaging his limbs by threatening to kill Tenshinhan.

Again, the fight was overall close.
I am not talking about "what - if?" , but how the fights happened actually.

In the 23rd TB Goku was also holding back due to the stuff with Kami and pretty much decimated Piccolo all the way up to the end until Piccolo did a cheap shot and mouth beamed him through the arm. Even with that Goku could still put up a fight. And he still won that fight with that grave injury.

So? Wasn't the fight dead even? Goku was "holding back a lot" ? Why did he do the super kamehameha then ?
Was mouth beam banned from fight? or did piccolo agree on giving up ? What makes it a "cheap shot" more than a surprise attack ?
The fight played out dead even, get over with it. They both have died if they continued to fight.

If you're going to take into account disadvantages and cheating into battles then

What cheatings?

you may aswell say that Vegeta didn't curbstomp Semi-perfect Cell because Semi-perfect Cell obtained his new transformation and then dominated Vegeta.

Semi-cell vs vegeta is a curbstomp in vegeta's favour, Perfect cell vs vegeta is a domination in cell's favour.

Or you could say it is equivalent to SSJ2 Gohan taking damage to his arm and losing half of his Ki therefore clearly the fight was "fairly even" against Super Perfect Cell. When we know that SSJ2 Gohan probably would have still had the upper hand considering he still fended off Cell with only half his Ki.

SS2 gohan vs cell - curbstomp
SS2 gohan (1 arm) vs SPC - even

And the Nappa fight also was not a close one either. Goku was hardly giving it his best and showed that he could have clearly curbstomped him at any time during the fight when he attacked Kuririn and Gohan. He may not have even needed Kaioken if it weren't for the fact that he wouldn't have made it in time without it.

The only thing that indicates that goku could've curbstomped nappa anytime is "Official 4000" power level for nappa. The fight indicates otherwise.
Actually, goku was worried about nappa's mouth blast (Yes, it was his best technique, but it proves this is NOT a stomp).

I'm not saying that it was an even battle, but it was close, closer than what "OFFICIAL" power levels indicate. Nappa was able to follow & match goku's movements. Yes, he was outclassed, but not to the same degree as humans + piccolo vs him.
If you check out, this fight was closer than 22nd TB goku vs krillin.

If the battle had gone on we know what the outcome would have been. Especially seeing as he was twice as strong as Nappa.

Again, you are taking "official" power levels too literally. Just go by watching the fight, rather than some numbers which put yamcha & nappa MUCH closer than goku vs nappa , & nappa barely above piccolo (who got curbstomped).

Even with Vegeta it wasn't and even fight. Goku was clearly dominating the fight at 3x Kaioken throughout the fight. His only issue was the strain of the form which in the end took its toll

Goku fights vegeta - gets dominated , uses KK - same result , uses KK x2 - same
Goku uses KK x3 - thrashed vegeta around a bit
KK x3 vs Galick gun - dead even
KK x4 vs kalick gun - KHH wins
Goku - no stamina left
Vegeta - hurt badly, but stamina left.

I see the fight very even.

. And I'm not sure what you saw of the Fat Boo fight but even while Goku was not giving it his all it was clear he had the advantage. Piccolo thought so too.

Yes he had the advantage, but it was close. (Only because goku wasn't going all out. If he did, he'd have stomped fat buu , & most likely have killed him even before stamina issues.


Oh, and the words I used go on the following order :

(from dead even to curbstomp)

1. Dead even
2. Very even
3. -
4. Even
5. Very close
6. -
7. Close
8. -
9. -
10. -
11. Dominating
12. Stomp
13. Curbstomps

So, what you see "close" means slight advantage, but not big enough to dominate, let alone curbstomp.

[Hitiro]

Half of your statements don't make sense. How is Goku vs. #19 close? Goku was utterly decimating him. The only reason he lost is due to the heart virus. So we can pretty much chalk this down to it being a possible curbstomp if Goku wasn't sick.

But we are not talking about a "possible" fight. We are talking about actual fight.

We're talking about his ability during the fights. You're generalising it down his feats due to events that either de-power him or give the other person a significant advantage. If you can look at the scenes and tell me that Goku was comparably better in those scenes until something event happens that makes him worse off then okay then. But as far as I see from the fights Goku does have the advantage to the point of curbstomping in several of these fights.

Against Tenshinhan Goku also had a significant advantage. The only reason the fight became more even is because A) Cheating diminished Goku's strength. and B) Goku couldn't fly so he had to use his Kamehameha to do any air battle.

But the fight overall was very even. That you agree with.

Again, this is about Goku's ability. Not the overall fight. If you're going to base his ability on the overall fight then you aren't getting to what the point of this thread was about. Which was that Goku hasn't had fights where he showed comparable ability to characters like Vegeta and Gohan. And it is the same for everything you said. To say a fight is close just because of lucky or harmful events is like saying Golden Freeza isn't a lot stronger than BSSJ Goku because he weakens to the point that BSSJ Goku has the advantage. We can't base Goku's fighting style or his ability in these fights based on how the battle played out. Only on what the character had been capable of during these fights. And as we see from these battles Goku was capable of curbstomping several times.

[apex_pretador]

We're talking about his ability during the fights. You're generalising it down his feats due to events that either de-power him or give the other person a significant advantage. If you can look at the scenes and tell me that Goku was comparably better in those scenes until something event happens that makes him worse off then okay then. But as far as I see from the fights Goku does have the advantage to the point of curbstomping in several of these fights.

The only fight which ahs some random, unexpected situational disadvantage against goku was heart virus. This doesn't discredit other fights. Also, the fact is, goku started the fight with heart virus too.

However, this fight can be ignored if you don't feel like it being included.

Again, this is about Goku's ability. Not the overall fight. If you're going to base his ability on the overall fight then you aren't getting to what the point of this thread was about. Which was that Goku hasn't had fights where he showed comparable ability to characters like Vegeta and Gohan. And it is the same for everything you said. To say a fight is close just because of lucky or harmful events is like saying Golden Freeza isn't a lot stronger than BSSJ Goku because he weakens to the point that BSSJ Goku has the advantage. We can't base Goku's fighting style or his ability in these fights based on how the battle played out. Only on what the character had been capable of during these fights. And as we see from these battles Goku was capable of curbstomping several times.

What ability? Goku was even with tien FACT.
Flying is also an ability, and you can't call it "unfair" or "cheating".
We CAN base goku's fighting style ONLY on basis of how the fights played out, there's no other way.


Goku doesn't go all-out. Goku's fights are close generally. His fighting style is that.
However, it doesn't help when your opponent is stronger than you & can blow up planet instantly (cell or kid buu)

[DanielSSJ]

Another point to Goku: His fighting style is very inventive and improvisational, at least in his earlier years. When fighting opponents, Goku is constantly coming up with moves and counter-moves on the fly. He counters Muten Roshi's Sui-Ken with his own Kyo-Ken and he counter's Tenshinhan's Shiyo-ken by copying Chappa's Hasshu-ken. Also, Feet Kamehameha, anyone? This is somewhat lost in the later fights when most matches are determined by power levels.

I've also noticed a difference between Goku's and Vegeta's fighting style. Vegeta tends to use Ki attacks much more often and seems to prefer flight combat, whereas Goku seems to prefer melee over relying on Ki attacks and also prefers grounded combat. This probably has to do with their different backgrounds, but it is interesting to think about.

[Captain Strawberry]

Goku's fighting style is more composed while Vegeta is more of a savage and brutal.

[apex_pretador]

Another point to Goku: His fighting style is very inventive and improvisational, at least in his earlier years. When fighting opponents, Goku is constantly coming up with moves and counter-moves on the fly. He counters Muten Roshi's Sui-Ken with his own Kyo-Ken and he counter's Tenshinhan's Shiyo-ken by copying Chappa's Hasshu-ken. Also, Feet Kamehameha, anyone? This is somewhat lost in the later fights when most matches are determined by power levels.

IT kamehameha
(i don't remember more instances in Z about this, as it was just a show of power levels)



Maybe that's why whis said that goku is always one step ahead of vegeta.

[Lord Beerus]

I've always seen guys like Krillin, Vegeta, Future Trunks and Piccolo as being quite pragmatic in battle. Vegeta and Piccolo in particular can be quite savage in combat but when they realise they have a job that need to be done they go all out the finish off their opponent as quick as possible.