Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

[Victorious]

That's easily explained by Cell having his memories overwritten by the super computer that was functioning by the time of Trunks' arrival. A bit like Terminator Genisys where Kyle Reese got to know his future from the perspective of a changed timeline.

The manga Panel shows Freeza getting cut in half when Cell is explaining his origins and why he has Freeza and Cold's DNA, but not Trunks. So if 'a' Future Trunks didn't kill Freeza in Cell's timeline, how would he have memories of that? Neither Cell or the supercomputer would know because it wouldn't have been an event in Cell's timeline. Goku would have killed Freeza.

Bad picture with unofficial translations, but you get the point. Cell is saying he got Goku/Vegeta and Piccolo's cells when they battled on Earth in the Saiyan arc, and he got Cold and Freeza's cells when Trunks killed them. But they discarded taking a sample from Trunks because they already had enough Saiyan samples. That is what is plainly shown.

Spoiler:

So Cell's timeline is weird as hell.

1. A Future Trunks shows up from some mystery timeline to kill Freeza and presumably warn everyone about the Androids and give Goku heart medicine too.
2. They all presumably train for the Android threat.
2. Goku and everyone else except Trunks still ends up dying.
3. #16 doesn't exist, but #17 and #18 are as powerful as they are in the main timeline, not in the Future Trunks timeline.
4. Androids still rule an apocalyptic Earth.
5. Androids end up being deactivated by Trunks
6. Cell is made by the supercomputer but becomes strong enough to go searching for the Androids in his timeline, he realizes they've been destroyed so he steals that Trunks' time machine and warps to the main story arc timeline. Why the hell did he warp to the main storyarc timeline? lol plot inconsistency.

So yeah, lot of AT BS to say the least.

[Desassina]

That wouldn't make sense. That would mean the Cell that killed Trunks travelled in time to Trunks timeline, killed Trunks, and then timetravelled again. The only reason there were two Cells in the present timeline is because one travelled back in time after stealing Trunks' machine. If there were two in the future timeline, then that creates an infinite loop where Cell just keeps going back in time, finding no Androids and going back in time again to repeat the exact same events.

Cell needs Trunks' time machine before there can be two Cells in one timeline. So I think it's pretty safe to say the Cell that stole Trunks' time machine came from a future where he was the only one.

Also, the Cell in the present timeline who was around before Freeza and Cold arrived was also active in the Android arc. So if he was the same Cell in Trunks' future timeline, then he'd long be active before Trunks was a grown up or could destroy the Androids. He'd be around before the Cell in Gero's lab is completed.

The most common mistake that people make when piecing time travel stories together is to assume that the future is a place from which you can depart, and that matter can be created by changing time (what?), but remember: the future has not yet happened, and the events must be always seen from the past up until this point. In this sense, the time traveller is someone who appears out of nowhere with memories (or visions) of something that has not yet happened. Whether or not those visions are realized depends on the course of events, but until the time comes for them to be realized, they're only memories of something that went differently for the time traveller (when in fact, he hasn't experienced them yet). If you can grasp this, you can get any time travel story, including those which people despise (Genisys).

Dragon Ball time travel theories have been controversial, and for a good reason, because there's no need for an extra universe, much less the one we haven't seen. In the end, Cell and Trunks were bound to exist, each one with a slightly different vision of the same event (a dark future) that never came to be. The chart that I made treats these events from the possiblity of their existence in terms of matter, but they're only memory maps (like programming flow).

[dbgtFO]

The most common mistake that people make when piecing time travel stories together is to assume that the future is a place from which you can depart, and that matter can be created by changing time (what?), but remember: the future has not yet happened, and the events must be always seen from the past up until this point. In this sense, the time traveller is someone who appears out of nowhere with memories (or visions) of something that has not yet happened. Whether or not those visions are realized depends on the course of events, but until the time comes for them to be realized, they're only memories of something that went differently for the time traveller (when in fact, he hasn't experienced them yet). If you can grasp this, you can get any time travel story, including those which people despise (Genisys).

Dragon Ball time travel theories have been controversial, and for a good reason, because there's no need for an extra universe, much less the one we haven't seen. In the end, Cell and Trunks were bound to exist, each one with a slightly different vision of the same event (a dark future) that never came to be. The chart that I made treats these events from the possiblity of their existence in terms of matter, but they're only memory maps (like programming flow).

Sounds way too confusing for me and where does Trunks go to, when he returns to his future? Is it all his imagination or are you going to claim it's not Earth, but another planet they erroneously assume is the same as the planet we see in the series?

[Desassina]

Hmm... never mind. I had rather not mess with the 4 timelines theory than having to explain time travel theory. I know that there are some articles on the internet that you can search with .PDF attached, but they're long reads and not as appealing as watching a show, obviously.

[Kamiccolo9]

Hmm... never mind. I had rather not mess with the 4 timelines theory than having to explain time travel theory. I know that there are some articles on the internet that you can search with .PDF attached, but they're long reads and not as appealing as watching a show, obviously.

And every story that has time travel has it's own time travel theory. Marvel's, for example, expressly contradicts yours, in that time doesn't exist linearly. It's basically a living organism that all exists at once, being one with the concept of all of space.

[Desassina]

Yes, but there must be an axiom from which to base all other theories. Strip them of their need to frame the comic book events that put the writers on a corner, and forced a few retcons, and you have the same time travel theory. I like to keep multiverse stuff separate from time travel.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yes, but there must be an axiom from which to base all other theories. Strip them of their need to frame the comic book events that put the writers on a corner, and forced a few retcons, and you have the same time travel theory. I like to keep multiverse stuff separate from time travel.

"Take out all the stuff that makes them different and you end up with the same thing."

Wut.

[Desassina]

You should have noticed that I was basically saying that time travel theories start with the same base, and get more complex the more they want to encompass their events. What it means is that we should start from the simplest theory, and work our way up to fit the demands of the plot. Most people have started with the 4 timelines theory, when there is a far simpler one beneath it, exemplified by the likes of Terminator Genisys. If Dragon Ball can be explained by that one, then there's no need to stack layers of complexity on top of it, as arbitrary as they should be. I mean, we're only adding an extra universe that wasn't shown nor alluded to. However, it's the theory that most people were exposed to before they were even educated on the matters of time travel, which includes not tracing its complexity back to a simple model. Also, refrain from making one word contributions to this topic, as disparaging as they should be.

[Kamiccolo9]

You should have noticed that I was basically saying that time travel theories start with the same base, and get more complex the more they want to encompass their events. What it means is that we should start from the simplest theory, and work our way up to fit the demands of the plot. Most people have started with the 4 timelines theory, when there is a far simpler one beneath it, exemplified by the likes of Terminator Genisys. If Dragon Ball can be explained by that one, then there's no need to stack layers of complexity on top of it, as arbitrary as they should be. I mean, we're only adding an extra universe that wasn't shown nor alluded to. However, it's the theory that most people were exposed to before they were even educated on the matters of time travel, which includes not tracing its complexity back to a simple model. Also, refrain from making one word contributions to this topic, as disparaging as they should be.

It's because this whole premise is ridiculous. You could use this argument to compare anything. I could say they lettuce and pork are the same thing because, once you strip them of everything that is different, they are the same. After all, they are both food.

It's even more ridiculous in the current discussion. Time travel isn't real. There is no set of rules that authors have to adhere to. Saying that there is is just you applying your wants to a fictional series.

[Victorious]

If Trunks killed Freeza in Cell's timeline then that is direct evidence of a 4th timeline at minimum. There could be more but there is direct common sensical evidence for at least 4. I'd say ass pull theories no matter how well argued are more complicated an unesesssary.

[Desassina]

Precisely! I thought the 4 time lines was an "ass pull", because it argued with things that were not shown, and not even alluded to (Trunks destroying the Androids with the remote... What?). With that being said, we know that Cell was talking about Trunks' blood not being necessary when the computer was still collecting it, which means that new data was being passed on to Cell. That's my own "ass pull", if you'd rather call it by that.

I'll try to put all the doubts in sequence, and reply to them:

How many Cell are there in each timeline? Two of them, because if Krillin and Trunks hadn't destroyed the baby Cell in the lab, he would have existed alongside the one who came from the future. In Trunks' timeline, the baby Cell wasn't destroyed, and there was another who arrived before Freeza and King Cold. It's a common event to both timelines with or without Trunks' interference.

How does Cell have memories of Trunks having killed King Cold and Freeza? The super computer was collecting data in both timelines, which means that Cell got his data updated upon the arrival of Trunks. The baby Cell who's in the lab inherits that information as well, which means that he could have departed to a similar situation if the future wasn't changed by Trunks' interference.

Is Future Trunks dead at the end? He could be, because that's what Cell told us from the time he came from, and given that Trunks killed both androids and Cell in his time, there must have been another Cell who killed him, which is what we argued in the first question. Trunks would have been stronger by then, so when in doubt, use the official and expanded filler scenes where Trunks is killed at base. He could have been revived by the time of RoF somehow.

Bam! No 4 timelines theory. Just the two that we saw and were referenced.

[Victorious]

Wait a minute, are you saying Cell doesnt come from his own timeline either? That there are only 2 timelines now? I don't get it. Somehow I get the feeling you havent watched the show or read the manga much. There is only one Cell born by a Supercomputer each timeline, if we end up getting more that exist in a timeline it means it travelled via another timeline.

[Desassina]

Wait a minute, are you saying Cell doesnt come from his own timeline either? That there are only 2 now? I don't get it. Somehow I get the feeling you havent watched the show or read the manga much.

What's with the attitude? I have the manga, and Cell's explanation of his origins are available on youtube. You're not exactly helping by covering your ears and sticking to what some other fan explained through a 40 minutes video on youtube. Four timelines are just as arbitrary as two Cells, but we know that one timeline had the two of them, so why not include them in the other as well? Seriously, the 3rd and 4th timelines are completely unnecessary, but they can live alongside the other fan theories, so as long as you don't put another aside, which has been justified, due to some bias. Tackle my points instead.

[Victorious]

Sure i'll tackle your idea. But i'm honestly confused by it.First off do you think there are two supercomputers making two Cells per timeline? In the main storyarc timeline we got 2 Cells, one that was born by a Supercomputer and one that arrived via time travel. The one was born by the supercomputer was killed by Krillin as a little fetus. The one that arrived via timetravel was killed by Gohan in a KHH battle. So the Cell that achieved Perfection and died in the Cell Games we need to understand where he came from. He can't come from the Trunks timeline because he said he killed Trunks and stole his time machine. And if he did that then how come Future Trunks is still alive and zapping back and forth between the main storyline arc and his own storyline arc? This means the Cell that Gohan killed, you know "Cell", he must come from his own unique timeline. What happens in one timeline has no real effect on another timeline, that's not how i see timetravel but that's how it is in DBZ. They are more like parralel universes. For instance, when Future Trunks returns to his timeline at the end of the Cell saga, it's there how he left it. There has been no Cell Games or Buu saga. If the effects of his timetravel in the main arc carried over to his timeline then he would have returned to a very different world which would be like the End of Z or something. Instead everyone is still all dead and it's still just Bulma and the Androids ruling over a wasteland. So yeah the 'timelines' in DB basically are just parralel universes IMO.

[Desassina]

Sure i'll tackle your idea. But i'm honestly confused by it.First off do you think there are two supercomputers making two Cells per timeline? In the main storyarc timeline we got 2 Cells, one that was born by a Supercomputer and one that arrived via time travel. The one was born by the supercomputer was killed by Krillin as a little fetus. The one that arrived via timetravel was killed by Gohan in a KHH battle. So the Cell that achieved Perfection and died in the Cell Games we need to understand where he came from. He can't come from the Trunks timeline because he said he killed Trunks and stole his time machine. And if he did that then how come Future Trunks is still alive and zapping back and forth between the main storyline arc and his own storyline arc? Cell must come from his own unique timeline.

Well, thanks for putting in the time to try to understand my idea, but the outcome may not be as you expected, which is why I'm going to reveal it now: Trunks is dead at the end, but he could have been revived, somehow, by the time of RoF.

First off do you think there are two supercomputers making two Cells per timeline? No, I believe that each timeline has one super computer generating one Cell, while the other existed before King Cold and Freeza's arrival. There's an anime filler that shows Cell hiding in the ground, which means that he could have been hiding all along. This Cell comes from the same lab that is generating him, but the present events changed due to Trunks' interference. In one timeline he was informed of that event, while in the other it was Goku who killed Freeza and King Cold.

He can't come from the Trunks timeline because he said he killed Trunks and stole his time machine. And if he did that then how come Future Trunks is still alive and zapping back and forth between the main storyline arc and his own storyline arc? In the present, Cell is surprised at Trunks being alive, because Trunks hasn't departed to his future to die by his hand yet. That means that Cell departed from Trunks' future after the latter killed the Androids and another Cell. The other Cell is the same one who arrived and hid underground.

By the way, I only picked part of your post, because I left the computer to do something, and didn't catch your edited parts.

[Victorious]

I get what you're saying but think there is a hole in your idea/model. First off Yeah i don't have a problem with that anime filler of Cell hiding around and digging in the ground. But that is the same Cell that ends ends up achieving perfection and hosting the Cell games and getting killed by Gohan is it not? So his presence in the main timeline is explained by time travel. That filler sequence is just showing the struggle he had to put himself through. Because Cell had to devolve just to go back in time and had to live that type of existence once he came to the main timeline until he could evolve back into his 1st form which took years. So we have 3 Cells and we know how they each died, specifically. First we have that "Cell", arguably the most important Cell, who died by Gohan in the Cell Games. Next We have the little fetus Cell that was born via the Super computer in the main storyarc timeline but was killed by Krillin. So now the only Cell left is the one that Future Trunks kills when he returns to his timeline all powered up. That Cell must be the Cell that was born by the Supercomputer in Trunks timeline. So how can there be 4 Cells per 2 timelines? If the Cell that Gohan killed reallly came from the Trunks timeline and not his own distinct timeline(via being born by the supercomputer in his own timeline), then how do you explain his existence in the Trunks' timeline in the first place? The Supercomputer only makes one Cell per time. It is said that Cell is the "ultimate project" of Gero, not "projects" lol. So if the existence in the main timeline of the Cell that Gohan killed is explained by the fact he time traveled to get there and is the reason we had 2 Cells in the main storyarc timeline. Then there being 2 Cells from the Trunks timeline must mean one of the Cells time travelled to the Trunks timeline, creating a 3rd timeline by default. You would need to ask the question where the two Cells in the Trunks timeline came from, and one of them would have to have an origin from outside of the Trunks timeline. After all that's the only reason why we had 2 different Cells in the main timeline. Unless there's somethin i'm missing even with your model we end up getting at least 3 timelines. I think Saiga already explaned this.

[dbgtFO]

Still needlessly complicating matters. If it works differently in DB, then it just does and again, where does Future Trunks come from and what is the place he returns to?

[Desassina]

It doesn't go again and again, only if you decide to follow Cell and Trunks' progress, but even they have their own end. Look:




Trunks - He dies at the hands of Cell in the same chaotic timeline that he was born in, having influenced the other with his presence.
Cell (1) - He arrives at the present where Goku or Trunks kill Freeza and King Cold, with Trunks and Gohan killing them in their respective time.
Cell (2) - He appears from the lab that went unnoticed by Trunks, kills him and departs, or dies at the hands of Krillin and Trunks who destroy that same lab.

The Cell (1) that dies at the hands of Gohan and Trunks is the same one as Cell (2) that is on the lab, which went unnoticed in Trunks' timeline. Cell existed before Freeza and King Cold in both of them, but he knew about a possible future before it was even changed, because the future doesn't happen before the past. Therefore, when Cell (2) dies at the hands of Krillin and Trunks, the future that Cell knew is changed in that timeline. Time does not create matter that we can visit, but matter changes with time.

[Victorious]

It doesn't go again and again, only if you decide to follow Cell and Trunks' progress, but even they have their own end. Look:




Trunks - He dies at the hands of Cell in the same chaotic timeline that he was born in, having influenced the other with his presence.
Cell (1) - He arrives at the present where Goku or Trunks kill Freeza and King Cold, with Trunks and Gohan killing them in their respective time.
Cell (2) - He appears from the lab that went unnoticed by Trunks, kills him and departs, or dies at the hands of Krillin and Trunks who destroy that same lab.

The Cell (1) that dies at the hands of Gohan and Trunks is the same one as Cell (2) that is on the lab, which went unnoticed in Trunks' timeline. Cell existed before Freeza and King Cold in both of them, but he knew about a possible future before it was even changed, because the future doesn't happen before the past. Therefore, when Cell (2) dies at the hands of Krillin and Trunks, the future that Cell knew is changed in that timeline. Time does not create matter that we can visit, but matter changes with time.

So your model is more that they are all one big timeline, not two distinct timelines [like my parallel universe analogy]. But the problem is that there's nothing Future Trunks does in what we call the "main timeline" that seems to influence his own timeline. When he returns home at the end of the Cell arc for instance, he's returning to an apolotypic world where everyone is dead, not one where there's been a Cell Games and Gohan has killed Cell. Why hasn't matter changed for Trunks' future? You said the Future doesnt happen before the past, therefor all events in the past must be causal to the future. Which means when Trunks returned home at the end of the Cell saga, he should have returned to a completely different future than the one he left, right? But that didnt happen in DBZ.

See what you're doing is IMO not forming a logical consistency, you're picking and choosing from a two timeline model, and a one timeline model. Somehow Cell killing Trunks travelling back has all this causal influence on later events in both timelines, but Trunks travelling back only influences one timeline. This is inconsistent IMO.

You either have to have a 2 timeline model/parallel universe model, which is basically how I and most feel DBZ time travel works, OR you have to have one big timeline model where every event is causal to the last, that means what we call a time traveller from the future could influence the past...but it could only lead to the future that the time traveller came from, not change it.

[Desassina]

I called it a memory map before, because in Dragon Ball Z, we see Trunks killing the Androids and Cell, when it could have been a memory from the Cell who killed him, and stole the time machine, being passed onto us (the readers) after the events of the Cell games. Why do you think that Trunks' future was told through his memories of it as well? It doesn't contradict the fact that, in time travel theory, the one who appears in the past, all of a sudden, has memories of a future that hasn't happened yet, which are merely visions to whomever time flows naturally. It also doesn't contradict the fact that time doesn't create matter, although I accept the existence of a loop that spans across two universes. The problem would be the confirmation of 12 universes from Beerus, and the event when Trunks punched in the date on the time machine.