Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:12 pm

Araki wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:"DBS anime canon to anime and DBS manga canon to manga".

Hope this makes my previous statement more clear.
Like VegettoEX explained in great detail, the manga is nothing more than an advertisement for the anime. A pamphlet, one could say. Toriyama doesn't have any involvement other than getting the generic credit he always does, so how can we call it canon to anything? It has no more value than Dragon Ball SD, which is its own product.

Maybe the people who believe otherwise will finally realize the truth once the manga skips another arc, an entire fight, or even if it suddenly stops. It should be obvious at this point that it's skipping important developments while just giving people a glimpse of what's coming in the anime - pretty much the words Shueisha used when they announced the Champa arc would start in the manga.
We have no idea if the manga skips parts from Toriyama's original story drafts though, and the manga version fits better with the original manga & movies. The manga & anime have the same story, but all of the details are different, which indicates that they are 2 different adaptations of Toriyama's scripts, and not an adaptation of the other (the manga isn't an adaptation of the anime & the anime isn't an adaptation of the manga).

This could change later of course, maybe the manga will skip important things later. But so far, the manga fits far better with the original manga & the movies than the anime does*.

*I'm not talking about the BoG/FnF Super adaptations.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by irreality » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:29 pm

Consistency doesn't make something canon or not canon -- Dragon Ball is not particularly consistent with *itself* in the manga, yet nobody is going to argue that RRA arc is not canon to the Pilaf arc. Super "manga" fits better because it covers less stuff. Toriyama doesn't care about issues like "has bulma ever met the ginyuu frog" or "is gregory a character?" -- these are *completely* ancillary to the plot and don't determine canonicity.

Super's manga is promotional material. It is not a continuation of the manga or meant to be the official continuation.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 02, 2016 4:43 pm

irreality wrote:Consistency doesn't make something canon or not canon -- Dragon Ball is not particularly consistent with *itself* in the manga, yet nobody is going to argue that RRA arc is not canon to the Pilaf arc. Super "manga" fits better because it covers less stuff. Toriyama doesn't care about issues like "has bulma ever met the ginyuu frog" or "is gregory a character?" -- these are *completely* ancillary to the plot and don't determine canonicity.

Super's manga is promotional material. It is not a continuation of the manga or meant to be the official continuation.
I'm not saying that the manga is canon because it fits better, I'm saying that none of the two is more canon than the other. I'm explaining why people are free to take the manga version as canon instead of the anime, if they want to. The manga version of the Hakaishin Champa arc isn't an incomplete rushed story like the manga version of the BoG arc, so I see no reason to disregard it. It's even going to get a volume release, it's not something irrelevant or a simple advertisement as people make it to be.

Besides, as far as we know, Toriyama is equally "involved" with both the anime & manga. He wrote the original story drafts & created character designs, to which both the manga & anime are based on.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by Araki » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:01 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I'm explaining why people are free to take the manga version as canon instead of the anime, if they want to. The manga version of the Hakaishin Champa arc isn't an incomplete rushed story like the manga version of the BoG arc, so I see no reason to disregard it. It's even going to get a volume release, it's not something irrelevant or a simple advertisement as people make it to be.
Except manga made just to advertise an anime or game often get volume releases, too. People were expecting Super's to get one exactly because of that.

Anyone is free to think whatever they want, of course. But when even the publisher itself says its manga is a glimpse of what's to come on tv...it's hard to counter that. It's not "people" who make it out to be like that, it's just what the manga is supposed to be.
Like it or not, the anime is the main product, and it's clear that the manga is still skipping things.

Besides, as far as we know, Toriyama is equally "involved" with both the anime & manga. He wrote the original story drafts & created character designs, to which both the manga & anime are based on.
We can't say that, because the credits are different, as said. While the anime gives him the same credit BoG does (story and character designs), the manga doesn't give him any special credit, just the generic one he always gets.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by LuckyCat » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:04 pm

I agree with DBZGTKOSDH, people should be free to choose whichever adaptation of Super they like. So far, there aren't any compelling plot reasons to accept one or the other as the "true story" by Toriyama.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by Kuririn Fan » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:16 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
irreality wrote:Consistency doesn't make something canon or not canon -- Dragon Ball is not particularly consistent with *itself* in the manga, yet nobody is going to argue that RRA arc is not canon to the Pilaf arc. Super "manga" fits better because it covers less stuff. Toriyama doesn't care about issues like "has bulma ever met the ginyuu frog" or "is gregory a character?" -- these are *completely* ancillary to the plot and don't determine canonicity.

Super's manga is promotional material. It is not a continuation of the manga or meant to be the official continuation.
I'm not saying that the manga is canon because it fits better, I'm saying that none of the two is more canon than the other. I'm explaining why people are free to take the manga version as canon instead of the anime, if they want to. The manga version of the Hakaishin Champa arc isn't an incomplete rushed story like the manga version of the BoG arc, so I see no reason to disregard it. It's even going to get a volume release, it's not something irrelevant or a simple advertisement as people make it to be.

Besides, as far as we know, Toriyama is equally "involved" with both the anime & manga. He wrote the original story drafts & created character designs, to which both the manga & anime are based on.
Dragon Ball SD is also getting volume releases, so that's not saying much.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by irreality » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:29 pm

LuckyCat wrote:I agree with DBZGTKOSDH, people should be free to choose whichever adaptation of Super they like. So far, there aren't any compelling plot reasons to accept one or the other as the "true story" by Toriyama.
People are free to do whatever always. There are still compelling *reality* reasons (Word of God -- Shueisha/Jump/Toei) to accept one as the official product and the other as simply promotional material. The manga is not an "alternate adaptation" of Super.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by LuckyCat » Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:37 pm

irreality wrote:The manga is not an "alternate adaptation" of Super.
Why not?

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by UltimateSSJG » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:10 pm

Toriyama is happily retired so he won't be doing a monthly manga, sadly. Canon is dead dragon ball, there won't be a conclusion to it so just enjoy what it is already.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:53 pm

Araki wrote:But when even the publisher itself says its manga is a glimpse of what's to come on tv...it's hard to counter that. It's not "people" who make it out to be like that, it's just what the manga is supposed to be.
What are you talking about? The manga is supposed to be a comicalized version of Toriyama's scripts, it was never advertised as "Promotional manga! Ignore it after you watch the new anime on TV!".
V-Jump wrote:V-Jump Comicalizes the New “Dragon Ball” Anime From Akira Toriyama’s Story Draft

The new “Dragon Ball” anime series, Dragon Ball Super, from original author Akira Toriyama is receiving a comicalized serialization, which is set to start in the August 2015 issue of V-Jump (Shueisha) on June 20th. It will be written by Toyotarō, who worked on the comicalization of the Dragon Ball Z: Revival of “F” movie in this magazine.

The stage for the Dragon Ball Super anime, the first new “Dragon Ball” series in 18 years, follows Goku’s fierce battle with Majin Buu, where peace has once again fallen over the Earth. Based on a draft by Toriyama, the [new series] will be broadcast on Sundays at 9 a.m. on Fuji TV this July.
Toyotaro wrote:Getting to see a new DB anime series every week makes me too happy! With this comicalization, I want to make my own small contribution to the excitement, so everyone please check out the manga, too!
So yes, the manga is an alternative adaptation of Toriyama's script.
Like it or not, the anime is the main product, and it's clear that the manga is still skipping things.
We have no idea what, or if, the manga is skipping from Toriyama's original drafts. And the anime being the main product doesn't mean much. The anime version of the JSAT Special was also the main product, yet Toriyama was more involved & liked better its manga adaptation, which was completely ignored after its release on V-Jump. If we are lucky, we may learn his opinion on the Super manga in its volume release.
While the anime gives him the same credit BoG does (story and character designs), the manga doesn't give him any special credit, just the generic one he always gets.
He doesn't get the same credit like in BoG. The credit he gets is "Original Author/Story Draft /Character Drafts", but the actual scripts are written by Toei writers. Even if he doesn't get this credit in the manga, we know that his original draft scripts & character designs are used as a basis for the manga, like they are used for the anime.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by eledoremassis02 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:18 pm

Kuririn Fan wrote:How is Super "manga" original when it's done by different author and anime being the main product?
What I mean is SD is a parody. Original probably wasn't the best word to use there though but perhaps the closest comparison would be the GT anicomic Jump did a while ago?

But (and this isn't aimed towards you) I am getting a little tired of people not being able to like certain certain things on here. In the end does it really matter? If you don't want it, don't collect it. A lot of people don't consider GT to be part of the universe or even Super (because of GT). Or even the Anime Comics for the movies themselves. Heck people who even consider Dragon Ball Z the Abridged to be their version of DBZ. I don't like the abridged but I'm not going to rail on them because it's not Toriyama, or it's not official, or not even a true abridgment (which would be kai) because it's what they like and it doesn't hurt anyone for them to like it.

Why can't Supers manga be both promotional to the anime and a sequal/companion to the manga (which essentially is what the anime is to begin with)?

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by irreality » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:24 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
irreality wrote:The manga is not an "alternate adaptation" of Super.
Why not?
It is an adaptation of the anime, sure. I object to the word "alternate" mostly, like there is some platonic ideal of DBS that has two versions, the manga and the anime. No, it is more like a tie-in movie novelization, but with less detail instead of more.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by LuckyCat » Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:32 pm

irreality wrote:It is an adaptation of the anime, sure. I object to the word "alternate" mostly, like there is some platonic ideal of DBS that has two versions, the manga and the anime. No, it is more like a tie-in movie novelization, but with less detail instead of more.
The manga has details the anime lacks as well. The Beerus versus Champa fight is much more detailed, Super Saiyan Blue gets named, and in terms of detailed artwork the manga wins hands-down. Also, Super's anime additions so far have been puerile, like 10 minutes of Champa running and then discussing his diet. Personally, I think that could've been cut.

But hey, some people like that. That's why it's good to have two versions.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by Neon Z » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:36 pm

irreality wrote:
LuckyCat wrote:
irreality wrote:The manga is not an "alternate adaptation" of Super.
Why not?
It is an adaptation of the anime, sure. I object to the word "alternate" mostly, like there is some platonic ideal of DBS that has two versions, the manga and the anime. No, it is more like a tie-in movie novelization, but with less detail instead of more.
The "platonic ideal" that people are implying is presumably Toriyama's outline. Yes, it was made for the anime, not the manga, but it seems pretty clear that the manga is adapting that outline, rather than the actual final anime script.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:31 pm

Neon Z wrote:it seems pretty clear that the manga is adapting that outline, rather than the actual final anime script.
It is a stated fact that the manga is adapting Toriyama's story draft and not the final anime scripts.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by Araki » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:32 pm

LuckyCat wrote:Also, Super's anime additions so far have been puerile, like 10 minutes of Champa running and then discussing his diet. Personally, I think that could've been cut.

But hey, some people like that. That's why it's good to have two versions.
Biased much? For starters, the manga didn't have Vegeta explaining why he wanted a written test or his reasons for accepting the tournament. The manga didn't show the devastated U6 Earth. In the manga, Bulma never pointed out that Champa's reasons didn't make sense - in fact, she barely bothered to discuss the situation. We never even learn about Gohan training. I could keep going, but you get the gist.
Why ignore all that to come up with an imaginary scene of Champa running for 10 minutes?

You talk like a stupid "SSJ Blue" joke was more necessary than all of those additions. But hey, i guess some people like that, too.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by Miracles » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:45 am

Does it really matter? The anime pretty much releases the same material as the manga.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by VegettoEX » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:37 am

Miracles wrote:Does it really matter? The anime pretty much releases the same material as the manga.
That's not true at all, though, and is why it's a question in the first place. From the very beginning in chapter one we've had slightly different events/jokes, and starting in chapter two, Vados and Champa were introduced and integrated into the material loooooooooooong before they were in the TV version. Every single chapter has had differences that range from minor/insignificant to changing up dialog/events entirely.
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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by LuckyCat » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:32 am

Araki wrote:Biased much? For starters, the manga didn't have Vegeta explaining why he wanted a written test or his reasons for accepting the tournament. The manga didn't show the devastated U6 Earth. In the manga, Bulma never pointed out that Champa's reasons didn't make sense - in fact, she barely bothered to discuss the situation. We never even learn about Gohan training. I could keep going, but you get the gist.
Why ignore all that to come up with an imaginary scene of Champa running for 10 minutes?

You talk like a stupid "SSJ Blue" joke was more necessary than all of those additions. But hey, i guess some people like that, too.
Please don't take my words out of context. I was in a line of discussion about good details and bad details to show that the manga has its merits. I too can go off on the anime's merits, but it seems like enough of the anime fans are already hellbent on advocating the anime while dismissing the manga here, for reasons I cannot fathom.

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Re: Is Toriyama writing the Super manga?

Post by Kuririn Fan » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:40 am

LuckyCat wrote:
Araki wrote:Biased much? For starters, the manga didn't have Vegeta explaining why he wanted a written test or his reasons for accepting the tournament. The manga didn't show the devastated U6 Earth. In the manga, Bulma never pointed out that Champa's reasons didn't make sense - in fact, she barely bothered to discuss the situation. We never even learn about Gohan training. I could keep going, but you get the gist.
Why ignore all that to come up with an imaginary scene of Champa running for 10 minutes?

You talk like a stupid "SSJ Blue" joke was more necessary than all of those additions. But hey, i guess some people like that, too.
Please don't take my words out of context. I was in a line of discussion about good details and bad details to show that the manga has its merits. I too can go off on the anime's merits, but it seems like enough of the anime fans are already hellbent on advocating the anime while dismissing the manga here, for reasons I cannot fathom.
Its easy to dismiss the manga because its not the main product, not written by original creator and its a monthly promotional material for the anime.

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