Beerus Did It -Overpowered Feats or Lazy Storytelling?

[apex_pretador]

I only wish that in the future there will be explained the effective usefulness of these gods of destruction in the general scenario.
Because their presence is required? How they balance the universe?

they keep the balance by destroying the planets which don't contain skillful chefs /cooks.

[Gorou]

I only wish that in the future there will be explained the effective usefulness of these gods of destruction in the general scenario.
Because their presence is required? How they balance the universe?

they keep the balance by destroying the planets which don't contain skillful chefs /cooks.

They should be called Gods of Cookery.

[ekrolo2]

I only wish that in the future there will be explained the effective usefulness of these gods of destruction in the general scenario.
Because their presence is required? How they balance the universe?

they keep the balance by destroying the planets which don't contain skillful chefs /cooks.

It would be nice if the show actually SHOWED why this balance is necessary and do something with that or is this going to just be another Chekhov's gun?

[TheMikado]

I kind of get that they can't have people running a muck and destroying planets at will unless it was sanctioned.
I.E. Saiyans taking over other peaceful planets.

But my questions still is where are the other Gods, God of Creation has to be real thing or is that actually Whis? Or are planets just not replaced as Beerus destroys them because 100 million years would give him plenty of time to destroy most of the universe.

[Gorou]

I only wish that in the future there will be explained the effective usefulness of these gods of destruction in the general scenario.
Because their presence is required? How they balance the universe?

they keep the balance by destroying the planets which don't contain skillful chefs /cooks.

It would be nice if the show actually SHOWED why this balance is necessary and do something with that or is this going to just be another Chekhov's gun?

My point.
If it is just to destroy any planet for the food, even one like Fat Buu could fulfill the role

[TheMikado]

^ considering Buu directive from his original owner was to destroy planets and its unlikely Beerus would have let Bibidi do it without his permission it wouldn't be too far off to say Bibidi worked for Beerus and Bibidi summoned Buu to do the dirty work.
That way Beerus wouldn't have even known of Buu's existence.

[Lord Beerus]

If any arc ruined the flow of the story of Dragon Ball it was definitely the Android/Cell arc.

How?
Objectively speaking, has not ruined anything

I thought the arc just took itself too seriously and had the most self contained story out of all the arcs in Dragon Ball.

[Gorou]

If any arc ruined the flow of the story of Dragon Ball it was definitely the Android/Cell arc.

How?
Objectively speaking, has not ruined anything

I thought the arc just took itself too seriously and had the most self contained story out of all the arcs in Dragon Ball.

Well .. actually introduces many things that in the future have proved very important (Satan, the new Kami, new forms of SSJ, Seishin to Toki room)
The only difference with the previous arcs, perhaps, is Cell that, universally (for Gods and other species), is not a much known enemy, unlike a Frieza or Bu.

Maybe it's a really bit 'serious, but not too much. At the end there Satan as comic figure, as the Ginyu Force in the Namek saga.

[Lord Beerus]

Well .. actually introduces many things that in the future have proved very important (Satan, the new Kami, new forms of SSJ, Seishin to Toki room)
The only difference with the previous arcs, perhaps, is Cell that, universally (for Gods and other species), is not a much known enemy, unlike a Freeza or Bu.

Maybe it's a really bit 'serious, but not too much. At the end there Satan as comic figure, as the Ginyu Force in the Namek saga.

All of the new SSJ forms were rendered meaningless very quickly and while not shown, Goku used the ROSAT in the period after the end of King Piccolo arc and before the Piccolo Jr arc. But I will say that Mr Satan's introduction was pivotal in the grand scheme of the plot.

[Gorou]

All of the new SSJ forms were rendered meaningless very quickly and while not shown

SSJ2 and SSJ3 have been fundamental in the Buu saga. Without the energy of two SSJ2, Bu would not even born.

Goku used the ROSAT in the period after the end of King Piccolo arc and before the Piccolo Jr arc

Which we never see, and we learn this precisely in this saga. Before it had never been mentioned
In fact, the introduction of ROSAT, its rules and its functioning, takes place in the Androids saga.

[ekrolo2]

SSJ2 and SSJ3 have been fundamental in the Buu saga. Without the energy of two SSJ2, Bu would not even born.

Like that's a pre-determined rule Toriyama HAD to obey even if he, hypothetically made the Boo Saga happen after Freeza. Which it isn't, in that scenario he would've simply re-written that the charact powers at the time, whatever those were, would be sufficient to resurrect Boo.

Which we never see, and we learn precisely in this saga. Before it had never been mentioned
In fact, the introduction of ROSAT, its rules and its functioning takes place in the Androids saga.

The ROSAT is awful the way it works in the series. It completely breaks both the present and future timelines with how it was always around but no one thinks to use it. Even though the very reason they choose to fight instead of outright killing Gero is to train. You mean to tell me that Future Gohan wouldn't use something like that? Or Trunks? Really?!.It's not a bad concept but it shouldn't have been something not so readily available to everyone.

[Gorou]

SSJ2 and SSJ3 have been fundamental in the Buu saga. Without the energy of two SSJ2, Bu would not even born.

Like that's a pre-determined rule Toriyama HAD to obey even if he, hypothetically made the Boo Saga happen after Freeza. Which it isn't, in that scenario he would've simply re-written that the charact powers at the time, whatever those were, would be sufficient to resurrect Boo.

With "if" and with but do not you go ahead. In fact, the Buu saga was conceived after, and is linked indelibly to the penultimate saga. No use denying it.

The ROSAT is awful the way it works in the series. It completely breaks both the present and future timelines with how it was always around but no one thinks to use it. Even though the very reason they choose to fight instead of outright killing Gero is to train. You mean to tell me that Future Gohan wouldn't use something like that? Or Trunks? Really?!.It's not a bad concept but it shouldn't have been something not so readily available to everyone.

Dragon Ball has always had power ups, and ROSAT is yet another plot device designed to grant at the characters new power in a short time.
I do not see what doily Mirai Trunks and Gohan. We do not know how things went on that timeline, and not we see the observatory of God, therefore, for all we know, anything might have happened (maybe cyborgs have destroyed). Goku has not used because he believed it would be enough the normal training.

[ekrolo2]

With "if" and with but do not you go ahead. In fact, the Buu saga was conceived after, and is linked indelibly to the penultimate saga. No use denying it.

Never said I was denying anything. I simply find this whole notion of "Oh well if you changed this then everything goes to hell!" when it comes to discussing Dragon Ball stupid because Toriyama could've written around them or written them differently. There is no omnipotent God ordering him "thou shalt maketh SSJ2 and SSJ3 or elseth Boo reviving maketh no sense!" if he wanted to just do Boo after Freeza.

Dragon Ball has always had power ups, and ROSAT is yet another plot device designed to grant to the characters new power in a short time..
I do not see what doily Mirai Trunks and Gohan. We do not know how things went on that timeline, and not we see the observatory of God, therefore, for all we know, it might have happened to it all.
Maybe cyborgs have destroyed. Goku has not used because he believed it would be enough the normal training.

[/quote]

And it's a bad plot device the way it exists. In the present timeline, Goku's whole thing is to train as hard as possible to defeat the Androids yet he blatantly half-assed it. Not only is Piccolo the only one to hugely benefit from the training, Goku didn't even bother making Gohan into an SSJ in the proceeding three years. He knows there's a room where he can become hugely stronger yet doesn't bother to use it, even though the (stupid) reason he doesn't just kill the guy affiliated with the RRA is to train!

We know how things went: forced and stupidly. Even if you use the excuse that the ROSAT doesn't exist or got destroyed, the Androids simply can't win. Why? Because NO ONE WOULD AGREE TO STAY DEAD! They would find Goku, have him take five minutes of King Kai's time and contact New Namek and get resurrected. Even if King Kai has initial troubles finding it, there's no reason he couldn't simply relocate to another place in the afterlife for better reception and bring everyone back. Yet in the future timeline, no one apparently does anything, they just die, tell Gohan, the last survivor to eat shit while they chill in Otherworld.

The future timeline does not work as its own continuity even if the ROSAT doesn't exist. And if it did, Gohan and Trunks are morons for not abusing it as much as humanly possible. Especially since there's no indication that 17 & 18 even know where the hell the Lookout even is.

[Gorou]

Never said I was denying anything. I simply find this whole notion of "Oh well if you changed this then everything goes to hell!" when it comes to discussing Dragon Ball stupid because Toriyama could've written around them or written them differently. There is no omnipotent God ordering him "thou shalt maketh SSJ2 and SSJ3 or elseth Boo reviving maketh no sense!" if he wanted to just do Boo after Freeza.

It is a irrelevant point because it can be applied to ANY ACT. Even the first form of SSJ would have been able to get in another way. According to the story that we know, and that we must considered, the stages of the SSJ2 and SSJ3 have had their utility. "What if" are not a good argument.

And it's a bad plot device the way it exists.

Your opinion.

In the present timeline, Goku's whole thing is to train as hard as possible to defeat the Androids yet he blatantly half-assed it. Not only is Piccolo the only one to hugely benefit from the training, Goku didn't even bother making Gohan into an SSJ in the proceeding three years. He knows there's a room where he can become hugely stronger yet doesn't bother to use it, even though the (stupid) reason he doesn't just kill the guy affiliated with the RRA is to train!

Evidently, he did not think the situation was so desperate to the point of using a room that, at the end, had proved dangerous for him in the past. When the androids have defeated Vegeta (which in any case he fought well with 18, as proof that training has taken effect) and after that Cell makes its appearance, the situation becomes much more tragic. Then, Goku then has always been a naive, and has always underestimated the threats (think to Frieza)

Then, frankly, is not a more forcible conduct of many others in the manga.
Even in the saga of the sayan they could stop the two Saiyan with the Dragon Balls with a bit of brain.

They would find Goku, have him take five minutes of King Kai's time and contact New Namek and get resurrected

Not at all, since Kai does not monitor constantly the earth (when Goku goes to find him knows nothing about Cell or the android) and, it seems to me, that the Dragon balls (even those of namek) can not revive the natural death
Goku (who died as he would not even have the right to interfere with the living) did not know if it was always with Kaioh in the afterlife.

The future timeline does not work as its own continuity even if the ROSAT doesn't exist. And if it did, Gohan and Trunks are morons for not abusing it as much as humanly possible. Especially since there's no indication that 17 & 18 even know where the hell the Lookout even is.

Again, nothing is said to us, and we look once the Lookout, so it may well be so.

[ekrolo2]

Evidently, he did not think the situation was so desperate to the point of using a room that, at the end, had proved dangerous for him in the past. When the androids have defeated Vegeta (which in any case he fought well with 18, as proof that training has taken effect) and after that Cell makes its appearance, the situation becomes much more tragic. Then, Goku then has always been a naive, and has always underestimated the threats (think to Frieza)

Then, frankly, is not a more forcible conduct of many others in the manga.
Even in the saga of the sayan they could stop the two Saiyan with the Dragon Balls

Goku isn't naive, he's willfully selfish and everyone else feeds into his sick obsession of fighting. If the stakes weren't so high I wouldn't care but Goku blatantly put the entire planet on the line, after hearing that EVERYONE dies in a post-apocalyptic future because he wants to fight some more. So, if you're going to train, train properly. Fuck, at least make Gohan into a freaking Super Saiyan but Goku couldn't even do this correctly.

And no they couldn't, Oolong suggests doing it but Shenron tells them he cannot effect beings stronger than Kami.

They would find Goku, have him take five minutes of King Kai's time and contact New Namek and get resurrected

Not at all, since Kaioh does not monitory constantly the earth (when Goku goes to find him knows nothing about Cell or the android) and, it seems to me, that the Dragon balls can not remedy the natural deaths.
Goku (who died as he would not even have the right to interfere with the living) did not know if it was always with Kaioh in the afterlife.

King Kai doesn't have to monitor anything. Piccolo and the rest would get sent to Otherworld where Goku is and once he sees and hears about what happened, he would use IT to find King Kai and try to establish contact with New Namek. Goku himself doesn't need to comeback, just revive Vegeta & Piccolo, have the latter train with Gohan while Vegeta does his own thing and, even if it takes them years, they'll beat the Androids. Once Piccolo powers up following the training, he can fuse with Kami and boom! He and Gohan can murder stomp 17 and 18 no problem. Especially since the future versions are weaker than the present day versions. But no one does this, because Toriyamamnesia makes every post-Namek into a selfish, stupid, prick.

The future timeline does not work as its own continuity even if the ROSAT doesn't exist. And if it did, Gohan and Trunks are morons for not abusing it as much as humanly possible. Especially since there's no indication that 17 & 18 even know where the hell the Lookout even is.

Look at my above post to see why the ROSAT existing or not existing is irrelevant to why future scenario can't happen the way it does.

[Gorou]

Goku isn't naive

Sure?
Yet Kai told him to stay far away as possible from Frieza, but him has not the least heard, believing that they can be able to face him.
We all know how it went then. If he had not unlocked the transformation, he would have died in Namek.

he's willfully selfish and everyone else feeds into his sick obsession of fighting.

Exactly, and it's always been that way.

If the stakes weren't so high I wouldn't care but Goku blatantly put the entire planet on the line, after hearing that EVERYONE dies in a post-apocalyptic future because he wants to fight some more. So, if you're going to train, train properly. Fuck, at least make Gohan into a freaking Super Saiyan but Goku couldn't even do this correctly.

He knew that everyone would die without him, and without ANY PREPARATORY training that preceded the appearance of the androids.

And no they couldn't, Oolong suggests doing it but Shenron tells them he cannot effect beings stronger than Kami.

I was not referring to that.
They could ask the dragon to blow their ships, and the two would die in space.

King Kai doesn't have to monitor anything. Piccolo and the rest would get sent to Otherworld where Goku is and once he sees and hears about what happened, he would use IT to find King Kai and try to establish contact with New Namek. Goku himself doesn't need to comeback, just revive Vegeta & Piccolo, have the latter train with Gohan while Vegeta does his own thing and, even if it takes them years, they'll beat the Androids. Once Piccolo powers up following the training, he can fuse with Kami and boom! He and Gohan can murder stomp 17 and 18 no problem. Especially since the future versions are weaker than the present day versions. But no one does this, because Toriyamamnesia makes every post-Namek into a selfish, stupid, prick.

All true, but I repeat, since we do not know how things turned out, anything might have happened . To say, the gods always tend to not interfere in the world of the living,except that not subsist a real threat to the entire universe (like Cell or Buu). Is likely to King Kai does not consider the androids so dangerous to inteferire. This is an eventuality that would make it all possible. Vegeta did not even know if he would go along with Piccolo in the afterlife.

Not sure that the androids are most weaker. With Gohan, in the manga, they always fought using half the force. Maybe they are strong exactly as their counterparts, and are always limited with Trunks too.

[ekrolo2]

Exactly, and it's always been that way.

And that's a big problem for the other characters. If Goku and Vegeta are the only ones acting like morons, sure, fine, whatever, they're Saiyan's. The problem is EVERYONE is acting like a stupid fighting obsessed Saiyan, especially characters who have no reason to do so. Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin all saw the destruction that can be wreaked on a planet if insane, powerful beings are left to do as they please. If there was any character consistency from arc to arc, none of them would so casually feed Goku's stupid Saiyan obsession. You don't go from witnessing one genocide then shrugs off a wise plan to smother one in its crib just because a stupid, alien freak like Goku tells you to.

His reasoning for it is stupid too. Okay, so Goku knows the RRA were an evil if incompetent organization and Gero worked for them. Maybe he's evil, maybe not. Here's how we can know for sure: gather the Dragon Balls and ask Shenron, hear out Gero's backstory then with 100% concrete information, decide how you want to proceed.

Everyone deciding to battle wouldn't be so bad if the character spent more than 5 seconds to think things through and based Goku's whole "Gero isn't necessarily a bad guy" assumption on factual information. But they do neither. They hear about the apocalyptic future and how they can stop it and just decided "Nah, we're gonna train and fight. Hell, we're not even gonna train properly!".

He knew that everyone would die without him, and without ANY PREPARATORY training that preceded the appearance of the androids.

Okay, so if the preparatory training is this important, why not simply train 2 years and 363 days then spend the last two in the ROSAT? That way you get enough preparatory training AND the benefits of the ROSAT to complete what Goku's objective is: TRAIN for the Android arrival.

All true, but I repeat, since I do not know how things turned out, it could have happened to it all. To say, the gods always tend to not interfere in the world of the living, unless because it is not a real threat to the entire universe (like Cell or Buu). Is likely to King Kai does not consider the androids so dangerous to inteferire. This is an eventuality That would make it all possible. Vegeta did not even know if he would go along with Piccolo in the afterlife.

Not sure that the androids are most weaker. With Gohan, in the manga, they always fought using half the force. Maybe they are strong exactly as their counterparts, and are retained well with Trunks.

Okay, if the Gods are so apprehensive about involving themselves in mortal affairs, even at the behest of mortals they personally know and consider friends, then why didn't King Kai tell Goku to fuck off when Goku asks him for his help in the main timeline? He doesn't, because King Kai isn't that much of an empathetic bastard. There's no way he'd hear about everyone being murdered, get visited by them and Goku then tell them "lol can't help, piss off!".

But that's how it happened. Toriyama needs everyone to be stupid and/or a massive dickhead because the Android Saga is built on forced contrivances. Even without Vegeta, all Gohan needs is Piccolo. With a Gohan who's apparently a Super Saiyan and, at least a few years of sparring + the fusion boost Piccolo would get from Kami, the two of them can still win. Hell, you can even have Piccolo stay dead and train with Goku in Otherworld for a few months to speed the process up. Maybe have him learn some useful techniques from its residents too.

[Gorou]

The problem is Goku. No one would have listened to Vegeta, but once Goku has expressed his desire to want to face the androids, they all queued up to his will. All blindly trusted to him as they always have.
Goku, on the other hand, has always preferred fight great battles, to world security; otherwise, he would not spare genocidal monsters as Vegeta and Frieza.
On the other hand, preventively kill Gero, on their own timelines, it would made the things worse. On earth, in fact, there was already Cell, which preceded the arrival of Trunks of one year. After three years they would have to face him, but without having any preparation.

You are overestimating by far the intelligence of the other characters. In no way, in the previous story arcs, they have had such a analytical approach. I repeat, they could have avoided the whole sayan and a namek saga, using the brain.

Okay, so if the preparatory training is this important, why not simply train 2 years and 363 days then spend the last two in the ROSAT? That way you get enough preparatory training AND the benefits of the ROSAT to complete what Goku's objective is: TRAIN for the Android arrival. ]

Quite simply, he has think that a three-year joint training would be enough, how he think, earlier, a gravity training be enough to deal Frieza, and at the same way, in the future, he will think that the fusion of two kids is enough to destroy Majin Buu. Always been naive, always underestimated the danger of the enemy.

Okay, if the Gods are so apprehensive about involving themselves in mortal affairs, even at the behest of mortals they personally know and consider friends, then why didn't King Kai tell Goku to fuck off when Goku asks him for his help in the main timeline? He doesn't, because King Kai isn't that much of an empathetic bastard. There's no way he'd hear about everyone being murdered, get visited by them and Goku then tell them "lol can't help, piss off!".

When it did, the first time, it is limited to coach a hero who had just crossed the big snake, and he would be resurrected regardless.

The second helped them to face Freeza, of which it knows the dangerousness.

The third time helped him against Cell, that if he would have won would have represented a real threat to the universe.

The fourth was the ultimate threat: Bu

I repeat, we have very little information on that timline, and we do not see the afterlife once. All this can be probable

[ekrolo2]

The problem is Goku. No one would have listened to Vegeta, but once Goku has expressed his desire to want to face the androids, they all queued up to his will. All blindly trusted to him as they always have.
Goku, on the other hand, has always preferred battles to world security; otherwise, he would not spare genocidal monsters as Vegeta and Frieza.
On the other hand, preventively kill Gero, on their own timelines, it would made things worse. On earth, in fact, there was already Cell, which preceded the arrival of Trunks of one year. After three years they would have to face him, but without having any preparation.

Cell wouldn't do anything to them. Cell needs the Androids, everyone telling Goku to eat shit and die for his stupid plan and listening to Bulma's wise plan of killing Gero would've resulted in all of the Android stuff being wiped off the face of the planet, negating Cell's entire motivation. Even if he killed them out of revenge, once again, they can ask King Kai to contact New Namek and come back to life no problem.

And before you use the "But Dabura would've killed them all!" excuse, no he wouldn't. The reason they take such an interest in everyone in the Boo Saga is because they're strong enough to free Boo. If they're considerably weaker, Babidi won't waste time with them.

Quite simply, he has think that a three-year joint training would be enough, how he think, earlier, a gravity training be enough to deal Frieza, and how, in the future, he will think that the fusion of two boys is enough to destroy Majin Buu. Always been naive.

Fine for Goku, why's everyone else listening to him? I already made a whole spiel in my last comment why no one but Vegeta and maybe Tien would be on board with this idea if Toriyama wasn't writing them like morons who forget what they experienced for the sake of advancing the plot.

When it did, the first time, it is limited to coach a hero who had just crossed the snake, and he would be resurrected regardless.

The second helped them to face Freeza, of which it knows the dangerousness.

The third time helped him against Cell, that if he would have won would have represented a real threat to the universe.

The fourth was the ultimate threat: Bu

So you agree that King Kai would help, great, so why the hell didn't he help in the future timeline?

[Gorou]

But Cell is a real threat even without its perfect form.
He would be born after three years and would have started to absorb the people (although Bulma would have discovered her fetus in the lab could not know that his alternative part had arrived from the future four years before), and after a few days it would become so strong to kill any z warrior who would face him.

Without finding the androids,he would kept hiding and continuing to absorb people, becoming increasingly strong.
In point it is that killing Gero would not put things right as many think.

The characters and situations are consistent. Personal tastes are something different from the objectivity, and personal tastes are not objective.

Fine for Goku, why's everyone else listening to him? I already made a whole spiel in my last comment why no one but Vegeta and maybe Tien would be on board with this idea if Toriyama wasn't writing them like morons who forget what they experienced for the sake of advancing the plot.

Others simply trust to Goku, as they ALWAYS did when he saved the earth from invincible monsters like King Piccolo, Vegeta and Frieza.
Even in the Saiyan Saga, Krillin fulfill a stupid wish of Goku, and spared Vegeta, that probably would be come back to kill them.
Honestly, I do not see no one contradiction in this.

So you agree that King Kai would help, great, so why the hell didn't he help in the future timeline?

Maybe, because Android is a threat confined to the earth, and because they can not abandon it.

If for what, in the manga, King kai could warn namekkians and convince them to resurrect all the warriors killed by Nappa, avoiding all the Namek saga. Just to give an example. It does not help them actively, in the absence of a real threat