Turns out, power levels are BS! Who knew?

[TheMikado]

What's obvious to one person is not necessarily obvious to anyone else. When something is obvious to you and not to someone else, and you want them to understand, you have to make an effort to clearly illustrate the validity of your complaint.

Do both the anime and the manga give concrete weights to the suits? Does the anime where the suits sink give Magetta a weight? Does the manga where Magetta is given a weight feature sinking suits? If not, then the complaint should be more that the highest up editorial powers are not maintaining brand-wide in-universe factoid-consistency.

The point he is making is that according to the narrative they are at universe breaking levels with single punches strength wise. Logically using know physics which are never said to be any different, Goku and Vegeta should be able to lift the moon with like a single finger if just the vibrations from their punches could destroy all the mass in the universe and reality. And remember they have even surpassed that level now. If just the poor power escalation that's always been in Dragonball coming to head now. It was bound to happen but instead of reeling it in it was jacked to 11 with no logical way to make things make sense anymore.

Logically, using known physics, you couldn't lift the moon with your finger no matter how strong you are, because it wouldn't be able to support it's own weight when lifted.

So you're gonna have to be ignoring some physics either way. Everybody picks and chooses.

No ones saying strict physics needs to be applied, but a 7 year old is going to more readily go WTF we Gokus punches can destroy the universe and then he has trouble lifting something heavy. They may not readily think about the structural integrity of the moon but they know enough to know if your strong enough to "punch" the universe out of existence then you probably should have a problem lifting anything...

There's a certain amount of leeway fiction is given but having universe destroying punches is getting darn close to breaking that barrier of leeway if it didn't already pass it and still have you character having to face any level of threat or obstacle without invoking a few questions. I mean he latest feat makes Goku as fast as time? Where do you go from there narratively??

[Gyt Kaliba]

I dont think so. Its not a line actually said in the series, so it doesnt really count at all.

Since when does an observation have to actually be uttered verbatim in series to be accurate? Again, pretty much the entire time power levels are used as a measuring stick, we're also being shown how unreliable they are. So why fans put so much stock in them when our heroes time and again show that doing so is folly, is...well...folly.

[Cipher]

"Toriyama is an awful writer!"

(Power-level math)

This thread is a tragedy.

[Polyphase Avatron]

There is a lot more to writing than power levels...

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Seriously, some people seem to think that power levels and feats are what makes good characters. If a character is ridiculously strong, they are awesome and badass automatically.

Look how strong Broli is! Such a good character. Gohan got a "Ultimate" power up? Beast. What? He's pursuing a career as a scholar now? Trash writing. Kuririn? The guy that never bulks up or transforms and loses fights? Worthless character. Superman beat Gokuu? NOOOOOOO!

I mean, making a strong character is easy. I just though of a guy named BobX. He has multiversal destructive power, high level reality warping, faster than light feats, and can lift 10 trillion tons. He's got giant muscles, spikey purple hair, and wears the skulls of his murdered family in a necklace. His power level is 10000000000000000000000, making him stronger than Zenou.

Get hyped, I just beat Toriyama.

[Zephyr]

The point he is making is that according to the narrative they are at universe breaking levels with single punches strength wise. Logically using know physics which are never said to be any different, Goku and Vegeta should be able to lift the moon with like a single finger if just the vibrations from their punches could destroy all the mass in the universe and reality. And remember they have even surpassed that level now. If just the poor power escalation that's always been in Dragonball coming to head now. It was bound to happen but instead of reeling it in it was jacked to 11 with no logical way to make things make sense anymore.

We don't know how strong U6 arc Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are compared to Super Saiyan God Goku. Universe breaking level stuff was when God Goku and Beerus punched each other. We don't know if the force of their two punches added together in order to threaten the destruction of the universe, if it multiplied, or whatever. But we know that it only happened when two of them collided. That doesn't mean that individually they ought to casually have enough destructive capability to destroy it just like that.

[TheBlackPaladin]

That's not to say I'm trying to say Toriyama is a great writer, or anything. He's a perfectly fine one, especially with the amount of whimsy he manages to throw in, but he definitely has his weaknesses. Romance, for example. The fact that the closest thing to a well written couple we got in the franchise itself without delving into fan speculation is Gohan and Videl, and even the bulk of that relationship build-up was filler in the anime...

I agree, I think Toriyama's a good writer, but if we're going to discuss his shortcomings, I don't even think of power levels, I think of the hasty and sometimes unrealistically-developed romances.

I mean, look, most of us are adults (or close to it), so I sometimes think we analyze Toriyama's work more deeply than even he did considering that it's a shonen series with a primary target audience of young boys. That target audience typically thinks romance is "icky," and I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama just didn't focus on it that much for that exact reason. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as far as his reasoning is concerned...but that doesn't change my perception of the romances.

As Gyt Kaliba said, the closest thing we have to a realistically-developed romance is Gohan and Videl (with most of the development actually being anime-only filler). On the exact opposite end of the spectrum, we have Vegeta and Bulma. To me, that's the most unrealistic romance in the whole series, and it seems it was developed solely for the sake of plot convenience. Bulma had no real reason to suddenly stop caring for Yamcha on the level she cared for him, and Vegeta didn't even seem that interested in her even after they had a child together. To this day, I just don't get that one.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I mean, look, most of us are adults (or close to it), so I sometimes think we analyze Toriyama's work more deeply than even he did considering that it's a shonen series with a primary target audience of young boys. That target audience typically thinks romance is "icky," and I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama just didn't focus on it that much for that exact reason. So I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as far as his reasoning is concerned...but that doesn't change my perception of the romances.

I want to say there's also an interview somewhere where Toriyama states that romance just isn't something he's very good at writing or dealing with, which is understandable and fair enough too. But at the same time I can't help but think...you have a wife and kids. One of your best friends/fellow manga artists, Masakazu Katsura, has essentially made his entire career out of writing romance stories until recently. From your own personal experience and just having a friend who's written quite a bit of it, couldn't you at least have done better than that? And I won't go fully into spoilers (especially since I'm remembering it from a secondary source, not having read that far in myself), but there's a romance in Dr. Slump that actually springs up so suddenly and out of the blue that it makes pretty much every DB relationship feel like a long-form love story. It's...kind of a sight to behold how much he went out of his way to avoid the subject.

I say this fully understanding that Dragon Ball's not that kind of series anyway, even if he wanted it to be, and in full agreement with the 'most little boys would find it icky anyway' sentiment - it's just amusing and aggravating all at once to think about.

On the exact opposite end of the spectrum, we have Vegeta and Bulma. To me, that's the most unrealistic romance in the whole series, and it seems it was developed solely for the sake of plot convenience. Bulma had no real reason to suddenly stop caring for Yamcha on the level she cared for him, and Vegeta didn't even seem that interested in her even after they had a child together. To this day, I just don't get that one.

That's the one that's always rubbed me the wrong way the most, and I feel like it was basically the final descent of poor Yamcha into the role of eternal buttmonkey for the series, and a fact that fans have since completely run with, sometimes to the point of absurdity. It's just so incredibly obvious that it was done only to get us another Saiyan. Why he didn't just use Future Gohan, or go ahead and give Goku and Chi Chi a second child at that point (in some ways it might actually have served the series better to just have the one further kid character going into the next arc rather than two, even though that'd definitely require some radically different scenarios to happen), I can only assume is because he wanted a character that looked nothing like anyone else currently on the scene. So outside of making the grim future happen so far ahead that Gohan himself could have a kid (which would have been way too big of a timeskip), he pretty much had only one choice - utilize Vegeta as the father. And I guess he found it easier to use his one other main female character still around at the time, Bulma, rather than introducing another female character that Vegeta could bump uglies with. It still basically tosses Yamcha away in the worst of ways though.

Again in retrospect though, some aspects of that actually work out well enough. Vegeta and Bulma really do make great foil for each other, especially nowadays. There's certainly more...complicated chemistry...than we really got to see with Yamcha and her, sadly. And she and Trunks also serve, in the long term, to finally make Vegeta a more bearable character, so there's that too. All of this though I can't help but feel is kind of a happy fluke after the fact though, because the original reasoning for throwing them together can't have been for any reason other than cranking out another half-Saiyan character. Great character and interesting storylines coming from it or not, that in-of itself is definitely a bout of bad writing IMO.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

No ones saying strict physics needs to be applied, but a 7 year old is going to more readily go WTF we Gokus punches can destroy the universe and then he has trouble lifting something heavy. They may not readily think about the structural integrity of the moon but they know enough to know if your strong enough to "punch" the universe out of existence then you probably should have a problem lifting anything...

There's a certain amount of leeway fiction is given but having universe destroying punches is getting darn close to breaking that barrier of leeway if it didn't already pass it and still have you character having to face any level of threat or obstacle without invoking a few questions. I mean he latest feat makes Goku as fast as time? Where do you go from there narratively??

You´re contradicting yourself.

Whose saying that fiction needs to be apply our real world physic logic?

[Soppa Saia People]

Toriyama's a bad writer because he's using fictional logic in a fictional story?

PVegeta in TFS said it perfectly: "Power levels are bull****." And intentionally so.

You had to go and quote TFS?

What is it, a crime ?
Anyway, well Toriyama isn't the best writer, it's not because of Power levels.

[Overlord78]

The point he is making is that according to the narrative they are at universe breaking levels with single punches strength wise. Logically using know physics which are never said to be any different, Goku and Vegeta should be able to lift the moon with like a single finger if just the vibrations from their punches could destroy all the mass in the universe and reality. And remember they have even surpassed that level now. If just the poor power escalation that's always been in Dragonball coming to head now. It was bound to happen but instead of reeling it in it was jacked to 11 with no logical way to make things make sense anymore.

We don't know how strong U6 arc Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta are compared to Super Saiyan God Goku. Universe breaking level stuff was when God Goku and Beerus punched each other. We don't know if the force of their two punches added together in order to threaten the destruction of the universe, if it multiplied, or whatever. But we know that it only happened when two of them collided. That doesn't mean that individually they ought to casually have enough destructive capability to destroy it just like that.

And yet Beerus managed to nullify both his and Goku's energy when that explosion happened which was stated by Whis, Elder Kai and the narrator to be universal level. You can argue that Goku isn't at this level on his own but I'm pretty sure Beerus is since he nullified that explosion by himself.

[Zephyr]

That wouldn't exactly pose problems for the whole Vegeta-Magetta thing, though. We don't know if being as strong as God Goku gives them the ability to destroy a universe casually. We don't know where God Goku stands compared to Champa arc Super Saiyan Vegeta.

I think, using Occam's Razor, we would assume that they're not on par; and even if they are, then God Goku can't destroy a universe on his own via punching force; and even if he could, then it doesn't mean he's guaranteed to be able to lift X amount. If a given assumption has unfavorable consequences, there's always the option to simply not make said assumption. Again, the systems that fans have developed for calculating and scaling statements, feats, and the like isn't the thing that the narrative must conform to. If these systems don't work in the narrative, then all the worse for the systems.

So, God Goku levels of power would be stupid for SSj Vegeta to have, given what we see SSj Vegeta's limitations are? I think the take home point there is "SSj Vegeta doesn't have God Goku levels of power", rather than "he does have the power, but he just can't lift some thousands of tons".

Alternatively, say we do go with the less appealing conclusion. SSj Vegeta does have God Goku's level of power and can't lift Magetta. Do we assume that he can bust universes but can't lift Magetta, or do we assume that he can do neither? If God Goku being able to bust universes makes Vegeta's lifting of Magetta illogical, then it seems like we probably shouldn't be assuming that God Goku can bust universes. Right?

But why even assume that someone able to pack a thrown punch with enough destructive force thus has some equivalent lifting force? The assumption more consistent with the narrative would be that they're not equivalent.

I think this all ultimately stems from a thirst or a need to make the assumptions that cohere more to the fanmade systems, rather than the assumptions that cohere more with the narrative. I can understand why people might have that problem, but I don't see any reason that people who don't care about said systems should suddenly care about them. Toriyama making a narrative that is inconsistent with fan systems isn't bad writing; it's certainly a poor understanding of certain nuances of the fandom, that's for certain, but not poor writing.

[Overlord78]

That wouldn't exactly pose problems for the whole Vegeta-Magetta thing, though. We don't know if being as strong as God Goku gives them the ability to destroy a universe casually. We don't know where God Goku stands compared to Champa arc Super Saiyan Vegeta.

I think, using Occam's Razor, we would assume that they're not on par; and even if they are, then God Goku can't destroy a universe on his own via punching force; and even if he could, then it doesn't mean he's guaranteed to be able to lift X amount. If a given assumption has unfavorable consequences, there's always the option to simply not make said assumption. Again, the systems that fans have developed for calculating and scaling statements, feats, and the like isn't the thing that the narrative must conform to. If these systems don't work in the narrative, then all the worse for the systems.

So, God Goku levels of power would be stupid for SSj Vegeta to have, given what we see SSj Vegeta's limitations are? I think the take home point there is "SSj Vegeta doesn't have God Goku levels of power", rather than "he does have the power, but he just can't lift some thousands of tons".

Alternatively, say we do go with the less appealing conclusion. SSj Vegeta does have God Goku's level of power and can't lift Magetta. Do we assume that he can bust universes but can't lift Magetta, or do we assume that he can do neither? If God Goku being able to bust universes makes Vegeta's lifting of Magetta illogical, then it seems like we probably shouldn't be assuming that God Goku can bust universes. Right?

But why even assume that someone able to pack a thrown punch with enough destructive force thus has some equivalent lifting force? The assumption more consistent with the narrative would be that they're not equivalent.

I think this all ultimately stems from a thirst or a need to make the assumptions that cohere more to the fanmade systems, rather than the assumptions that cohere more with the narrative. I can understand why people might have that problem, but I don't see any reason that people who don't care about said systems should suddenly care about them. Toriyama making a narrative that is inconsistent with fan systems isn't bad writing; it's certainly a poor understanding of certain nuances of the fandom, that's for certain, but not poor writing.

I don't think SSJ is on the same level as SSG. If he was that strong that would mean characters like Magetta, Frost and Cabba could take hits from a galaxy/ universal being. I only think they are at that level of strength when they are in their God forms. But then if we go with this then we have no idea how strong the current SSJ form is.

I've always seen Dragon Ball characters having greater striking strength than lifting strength so I would assume that they are not equivalent. They usually amp their attacks and durability with ki so maybe that doesn't apply to lifting strength. But it's strange seeing a character that could potentially destroy the universe struggle with 1000 tons. Even base form Goku in the Buu saga lifted 40 tons, times that by 50 and SSJ Goku could lift 2000 tons. Maybe Goku & Vegeta's lifting strength isn't equal and Goku can lift more?

[Turbotrup]

Who the hell dared to change my topic's title?! That's the 1st thing. 2ndly, tons of people are still blindly believing that just because Toriyama got rid of power levels, he automatically made power scaling vanish. Aha, bravo! So you think that the training the characters were coming through for so many years was nothing more than just a filler to make the gap between fights with other opponents? Are you saying, that it's okay that if Goku was struggling to lift 100 tons several years after his fight against Freeza, after his training with GOD OF DESTRUCTION and after training in the Time Chamber, JUST BECAUSE it was never stated how much more powerful exactly Goku has become...? You're okay with him standing in the same point for entire show as long as nothing about his official feats has been said while it's obvious how, more or less, is he strong since you can SEE THE CLEAR DIFFERENCE.

I'm not going to discuss it any further with people THIS close-minded. Sorry. Anyone with common sense would guess that Goku can easily lift over 1000 tons by now. Without even going SSJ. Anyone but you. This is really incredible. Truly, your love for Toriyama blinds you so much I can't even...

[Gaffer Tape]

So apparently "THIS close-minded" equates to "people who don't agree with me." And blinding "love for Toriyama" doesn't take into account a conversation half a dozen posts above yours about how bad he is at writing romance. Look, you can write your heart out about a point on which you feel passionately, and sometimes people just aren't going to agree. This is a forum, not a sounding board to have your own opinions parroted back at you. I appreciate that you have an opinion and are willing to share it, but I for one can't get worked up about made-up numbers. I barely care about them within the series itself, let alone the way other fans have expanded the concept of them. And any time the word "feats" or "*blank*-buster" comes into a conversation, I get a bit sleepy. But that's just my perspective, and if those things strike a chord with you, more power to you.

Typically, you'll find more battle power-oriented fans over the "In-Universe Discussion" board. But if you're going to post a thread about how terrible a writer Toriyama is, it's not unfair for those entering the thread to assume there's going to be a discussion about plot and character and world-building, not the physics in a flat-out fantasy world.

[TheMikado]

Yeah I'm not really a fan of the title change and think it is inappropriate. The core argument is that Toriyama is not a very good writer. This poster feels he is awful for the reasons that matter to him feat/power consistency. Others feel this way due to his romance characterization which I also agree with as well as the feats. I really don't seem how this is ok?

Saying everything is good because it came from Toriyama is ludicrous. Some feel he is not that great a writer and my personal opinion is that failure to critize his short coming also results in failure to acknowledge the things he did exceptionally well as I also listed above. Everything with Toriyamas name on it is not Gold and above reproach or analysis. I think Toriyama is a fair writer with flashes of true inspiration and brilliance and as such is a cut above most other writers but only when his works are viewed within a whole transition and not independently. Basically his stories are far greater than mediocre sum of their individual parts due to the structure and progression.

[DBZAOTA482]

Lifting strength don't exactly correlate with battle power. Generally people can effectively lift more than they can throw or strike with and lifting strength is mostly useless in battle.

[ABED]

Toriyama's strength as a writer lie in his ability to create distinct and memorable characters that the audience can invest in in some way emotionally. Some writers aren't good at that. They are great with structure and/or plot, but the characters fall flat. I find Christopher Nolan falls into that category. With the exception of characters he didn't create, I don't invest in his characters on an emotional level, or rarely do.

[TheMikado]

No ones saying strict physics needs to be applied, but a 7 year old is going to more readily go WTF we Gokus punches can destroy the universe and then he has trouble lifting something heavy. They may not readily think about the structural integrity of the moon but they know enough to know if your strong enough to "punch" the universe out of existence then you probably should have a problem lifting anything...

There's a certain amount of leeway fiction is given but having universe destroying punches is getting darn close to breaking that barrier of leeway if it didn't already pass it and still have you character having to face any level of threat or obstacle without invoking a few questions. I mean he latest feat makes Goku as fast as time? Where do you go from there narratively??

You´re contradicting yourself.

Whose saying that fiction needs to be apply our real world physic logic?

Is one of the basis rules of storytelling, which is what this debate is about. Whether he is a good writer or not. Let me explain this about writing and what seperate good authors from bad ones.

English 101

The world in which a fictional story is set is ALWAYS assumed but the reader and writer to have known relatability unless explicitly stated otherwise.

For instance all characters named are initially assumed to be human unless specifically revealed to be otherwise.
The story takes place on Earth unless specifically stated to be otherwise.
The sky is blue, water is wet, physics still apply unless stated otherwise.
As a work of fiction you can obviously bend but not break these rules if they are established on known principles.

Here are examples of bad writing.
"Terry walked out into the sun from his home. He enjoyed the smell of the flowers"
"Terry walked out into the sun from his small hole, his mousy whiskers twitched are the smell of the flowers"

In both sentences Terry is a mouse. If in the first sentence this is never expounded upon that Terry is a mouse then either through foreshadowing or exposition in a later reveal and the author says Terry is a mouse outside the context of the book the. You've lost all context while within the story which is bad writing. This is what consistency and context do matter in a narrative.

This debate isn't about what you or I personally like but whether this is technically good writing/storytelling which as I stated it mediocre in most cases but brilliant for its structure.

Not taking your point into context, a 7 year old will assume the same known physics apply in this universe unless specifically stated. If the physics are not specifically stated to be different then the context is broken and by extension that is poor writing. We see this multiple times in the series but Super has been the worse culprit without the redeeming qualities of the other series.

As I said Toriyama as individual parts of literature are just fine. As a whole his previous works when analyzed together make his writing brilliant.

[TheMikado]

Toriyama's strength as a writer lie in his ability to create distinct and memorable characters that the audience can invest in in some way emotionally. Some writers aren't good at that. They are great with structure and/or plot, but the characters fall flat. I find Christopher Nolan falls into that category. With the exception of characters he didn't create, I don't invest in his characters on an emotional level, or rarely do.

Can we get the title changed back since people are actually discussing his literary skills and not just debating power levels in here. The "reworked" title is extremely misleading and could derail what may otherwise be a productive thread.