DBZ Kai Dub and Goku's character

[TheBlackPaladin]

I think some (a lot?) of what's going on is that people are seeing, for example, us only just in 2015 translating a 1996 Toriyama interview where he makes the biggest point about Goku's character, and misinterpreting that as "new" or inadvertently giving it more timely relevance than it perhaps should get.

Toriyama has ALWAYS felt this way about Goku, and him continuing to write Goku as the Goku he always wrote Goku is... well, I don't know how else to explain that! So again, I think that's just more pushback and cognitive dissonance going on with the (forgive me for pigeon-holing you all!) Toonami generation because now they CAN'T AVOID the Goku that we've been discussing for years.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I didn't mean to suggest that all fans of the original Japanese version thought Goku was completely selfish. Actually, the first major fan of the original Japanese version that I remember pointing out that Goku still had his "superhero moments" even in the original version was Herms. I have, however, seen a small number of fans of the Japanese version taking the "he's completely selfish and there's nothing heroic about him"-route, and I wondered if that's what they truly believed, or if they were going over-board in an effort to combat the incorrect image of Goku that FUNimation popularized from their earlier efforts.

Having said that, I didn't know that Toriyama said this in 1996. You're right, because you guys translated in 2015, I thought that was a very recent admission of his. Interesting to learn that's not the case!

[Snow_Lilies]

I feel like there's a middle-ground here, and that it's the dub fans who are trying to paint US as trying to paint Goku as 100% complete opposite of what they know.

Like, we know that's not the case. I don't see many of us actually pushing that agenda. Don't misinterpret our pointing out contrary examples as somehow missing the forest for the trees.

That's getting a bit defensive, isn't it? It's good to identify those feelings because you might be able to understand where those dub fans might be coming from. Absolutely relevant counter-examples should be allowed to speak for themselves but there's a fine line between framing the discussion as "Goku isn't a hero like Superman" (an arguably true statement) and "Goku doesn't display heroic characteristics in the vein of Superman to the degree that Funi and arguably, to a lesser extent, Toei do." Some topic starters won't really close out their argument with an impression of the latter, and even if they meant it to be as neutral as possible, not all participants will be able to recognize and appreciate that nuance. It's difficult when you're a moderate and you suddenly feel like you walked into a mudslinging fight. But really clarifying one's position and making concedes in a debate is more likely to help get us back on track than pointing fingers in either direction.

You do make an excellent point, but it's not exclusively dub fans raising the ruckus. It's more of a failing to come together of fans from both sides of the fandom due to loads of out-group baggage and loud individuals serving as poor representatives of their argument.

[90sDBZ]

I think some (a lot?) of what's going on is that people are seeing, for example, us only just in 2015 translating a 1996 Toriyama interview where he makes the biggest point about Goku's character, and misinterpreting that as "new" or inadvertently giving it more timely relevance than it perhaps should get.

Toriyama has ALWAYS felt this way about Goku, and him continuing to write Goku as the Goku he always wrote Goku is... well, I don't know how else to explain that! So again, I think that's just more pushback and cognitive dissonance going on with the (forgive me for pigeon-holing you all!) Toonami generation because now they CAN'T AVOID the Goku that we've been discussing for years.

I will say that I wasn't aware of the time that interview was originally from. Yes Goku has always had those qualities, but I can't help but feel that they've been dialled up to 11 in recent years. If we look back to the Buu arc for example, Goku was noticeably distressed watching Gohan take a beating from Buutenks and was desperate to do something to help him, and was similarly distressed watching Vegeta take a beating from Kid Buu. He even refused to throw the Spirit Bomb until Vegeta was moved to safety.

In Battle of Gods he literally stands back in the shadows and watches while his friends and sons risk their lives against Beerus, and then later acts like it was no big deal. He's willing to risk letting them die just to study Beerus's technique. His attitude also seems cockier in general than before, and is made a significant plot point in RF when it was never that much of a weakness before.