Contentious Debates: Evidence of Worse Writing post-Namek?

[ABED]

In the original DB he was always in the spotlight even when a scene was focused on someone else but being sidelined in Z gave the opportunity to have multiple main characters instead of just one cause the focus kept completely switching from one to another which rarely happened in the original DB.

Goku was still clearly the main character of the Saiyan arc, Toriyama simply gave Piccolo and Gohan the time to develop, but it becomes a very lazy way to develop characters by knocking out your main character. And why is it better to have multiple main characters? So many stories have a central figure and the rest have moments in the spotlight, but more or less revolve around the main character. Buffy didn't have to be sidelined for the rest of the Scoobies or Spike to get focus. And in DB, plenty of characters got their moments to shine without pushing out Goku. In the Freeza arc, the device is used more effectively not because Gohan and Kuririn and Vegeta needed the time in order to develop as characters, but because they were all given stories that played to their strengths without having them need to be the main protagonist. In the Cell arc, much of it feels like everyone's just waiting for Goku for one reason or another.

[sintzu]

Why is it better to have multiple main characters ?

It keeps things fresh and unpredictable.

[coola]

Beside almost everyone behaving like idiot, the only real problem i had with Cell Saga, was Super Perfect Cell, he said he can regenerate, when nucleus is intact, yet Goku earlier blow his upper half, and nucleus was nowhere to be seen. It could be like in Zyuranger/MMPR episode , where brain, before monster regenerate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5kUGxbLr4I

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Why is it better to have multiple main characters ?

It keeps things fresh and unpredictable.

Even with Gokuu around it was pretty unpredictable. I don't think anyone even in their dreams would've thought Gokuu would lose the 21st TB or the 22nd TB or he would give up against Cell.

One of Cell arc's biggest flaw IMO is it focusses on everyone else except Gokuu until the end. And the whole waiting for Gokuu gets repetitive, annoying and boring. Gokuu should've been the prime focus of the arc cause everything in the arc was connected to him and yet everyone is involved except him.

- Travis

[ABED]

Why is it better to have multiple main characters ?

It keeps things fresh and unpredictable.

It was no more unpredictable than Dragon Ball. As Travis pointed out, who saw Goku losing the 22nd Budokai?

[sintzu]

Gokuu should've been the prime focus of the arc cause everything in the arc was connected to him and yet everyone is involved except him.

That's the best thing about it, For years Goku had been fighting for everyone so it was time for everyone to fight for him.

[Ringworm128]

Beside almost everyone behaving like idiot, the only real problem i had with Cell Saga, was Super Perfect Cell, he said he can regenerate, when nucleus is intact, yet Goku earlier blow his upper half, and nucleus was nowhere to be seen. It could be like in Zyuranger/MMPR episode , where brain, before monster regenerate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5kUGxbLr4I

Even the most hardcore dub bashes usually agree that Funimation's take on how Cell regenerates makes way more sense than how it was originally written.

[Lord Beerus]

While I hate the Android/Cell arc, and think it's one of the low points of the entire story, I don't think that every post-Namek was by any means majorly worse or lesser than what proceeded it. I enjoyed the hell out of the Majin Boo arc, and it's one of my favourite arcs in all of Dragon Ball. And while the narrative was a bit unfocused at time, it more than made up for it with the amount of character development, as well as the just the genuine amount of charm and whimsical nature infused into the plot. It was just wonderful. And anime adaption of that arc was freaking fantastic.

If we're taking into the Toei and Toriyama material such as GT, BOG, Minus, ROF and Super. Then there is certainly more of a debate could be made as it's been quite uneven following the end of Z and the manga.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I pondered this, and the one thing I could come up with is that ole' Freezy Pop is where the story starts to make more and more claims of import that don't match their context- that if you take a story point a step further than "Something happens because Toriyama wants it to", it can still stand plausibly on its own. I am not referring to things like the Rabbit Gang making moshi on the moon that clearly meant to be taken at face value, but ideas that we're supposed to take interest in to move the story along.

Say, King Piccolo's ability to create fast-growing progeny with some knowledge of his own will- that is in line with how his previous demon children worked, and human's slow growth rates are evolutionary anomalies anyway. Radditz's being the weakest of the surviving saiyans (even if I am not fond of the width of the gap), or cream-of-the-crop Vegeta's surviving his world's destruction. Those are things that could happen. Freeza's having four transformations that explicitly alter his body for different modes of fighting despite admitting to having never combat trained in his life? Repeatedly altered histories? Cell's transforming by eating two entirely unrelated robots? Most anything Buu does? This does not stop these stories from doing anything worthwhile or enjoyable, I like the Buu arc a lot myself, but they ask for a lot things that don't follow.

This does not leave the first eight arcs innocent of stretching by any means, when you have things like the actual Ultra Holy Water, the entire concept of the Saiyans, and many others besides; not to mention the whole thing is arbitrary- I did not list "Androids stronger than Freeza" on my short list of leaps, did I "cede" it because otherwise the story does not happen?

[ABED]

Freeza's having four transformations that explicitly alter his body for different modes of fighting despite admitting to having never combat trained in his life?

Are you saying that's bad writing?

Cell's transforming by eating two entirely unrelated robots?

But Gero built Cell with them in mind.

the entire concept of the Saiyans

How is that a stretch?

[ekrolo2]

Freeza didn't design them for various modes of fighting like Frost did, though, they're there to keep a lid on his powers. Near as I recall, Freeza doesn't call his third form an "assault form" or whatever.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Freeza's having four transformations that explicitly alter his body for different modes of fighting despite admitting to having never combat trained in his life?

Are you saying that's bad writing?

In that it asks too much for what it presents itself as. Nappa, Vegeta, and Zarbon form this surprisingly un-Toriyama chain of characters that have learned to understand, mitigate, and optimize their various facets and transformations to work in an organized, face-conscious private army (The three Saiyans wrapping their tails around their waists is such a great picture of "We people now"). Freeza has an angle too, suppressing his power; but does that call for three largely distinct transformations? Toriyama decided it did, but if you look for something in the story's own logic, beyond his authorial word, you get nothing.

Say, a throwaway line about growing them through his own experimentation, in all his free time? It makes him even more threatening by being aware of what he can do, without diminishing his smug confidence in his own unchallenged power- Vegeta and Nappa did the same thing with their Monkey forms, and they certainly aren't martial artists. Not to mention that it would make Resurrection 'F' that much easier to swallow.

Cell's transforming by eating two entirely unrelated robots?

But Gero built Cell with them in mind.[/quote]

What about Cell's design concept demands he eat two teenage robots? Their energy reactors? Maybe, Cell never bothered to say "Why this must be so", only "I am killing off meandering characters, this must be so."

the entire concept of the Saiyans

How is that a stretch?[/quote]

I am not sure it is, it is simply a candidate. "Your strength is explained by your being an alien and the only one who knew was your adoptive grandfather who died before the series began" has a good deal of potential dramatic heft, too.

[ABED]

It asks too much? No, it's just interesting looking and fun. It's the ultimate villain and instead of one transformation, he has several. There's nothing un-Toriyama like about it, it's just different. The Saiyans can only transform by the light of a full moon and Zarbon is vein. He doesn't like the way he looks in his more powerful form.

What about Cell's design concept demands he eat two teenage robots? Their energy reactors? Maybe, Cell never bothered to say "Why this must be so", only "I am killing off meandering characters, this must be so."

Huh? I think you are trying to make this WAY more intellectual than it needs to be. What about it demands he eats them? Nothing, but it makes sense plotwise. It makes it seem like we are seeing a progression of story and that the episodes before it weren't wasted by coming up with 2 characters that don't mean anything to the story. And I never once bothered to question why because it's all just BS fictional science anyway. Why does Cell look the way he looks and can do the things he does? Fake science. And 17 and 18 aren't meandering characters. They have a goal, but they're so powerful that they are taking their time to savor achieving it.

The only thing that's a buy with Goku being a Saiyan is that Gohan didn't tell him, but Roshi did tell Goku that Gohan found him in his spaceship. Other than that, it doesn't break the internal logic of the show. The sci-fi elements have been there since the beginning.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

The funny thing is is that I don't really think I'm going too far off the beaten path about it. If we can have blutz waves, which are apparently such an extraneous detail that FUNimation replaced them with "Your father was a brilliant scientist, Kakkarot" the first time around, why not a reason for what #17 and #18 do for Cell? Both things make sense as tools for story progression in of themselves, but in the first instance Toriyama decided to give a "why" that further characterized what was happening.

[ABED]

But did we really need Bruits Waves? Would werewolves be better if we knew the BS fake science reason why the light of the full moon turns humans into wolves, or in DB's case from wolf into a man? I don't think either werewolf stories or DB were better for that bit of exposition. That seems more like something interesting that's better found in an Ask Toriyama Q&A.

[LuckyCat]

But did we really need Bruits Waves? Would werewolves be better if we knew the BS fake science reason why the light of the full moon turns humans into wolves, or in DB's case from wolf into a man? I don't think either werewolf stories or DB were better for that bit of exposition. That seems more like something interesting that's better found in an Ask Toriyama Q&A.

I think the only reason Blutz waves were named, was because at that point in the series oozaru had already appeared several times in Dragon Ball. Toriyama wanted to flesh out the idea in a sci-fi way, lending itself to the next arc. It also makes Vegeta sound all the more dangerous, as he not only knows about oozaru, but he's extremely familiar with how the transformation works.

[ABED]

But did we really need Bruits Waves? Would werewolves be better if we knew the BS fake science reason why the light of the full moon turns humans into wolves, or in DB's case from wolf into a man? I don't think either werewolf stories or DB were better for that bit of exposition. That seems more like something interesting that's better found in an Ask Toriyama Q&A.

I think the only reason Blutz waves were named, was because at that point in the series oozaru had already appeared several times in Dragon Ball. Toriyama wanted to flesh out the idea in a sci-fi way, lending itself to the next arc. It also makes Vegeta sound all the more dangerous, as he not only knows about oozaru, but he's extremely familiar with how the transformation works.

Fair enough, I simply wish the scene wasn't so exposition-y. However, that doesn't spoil the great reversal. Piccolo takes out the moon to stop Gohan from transforming and as a precaution against the Saiyans. Little does he know that Vegeta can create an artificial moon so the point is moot. That whole arc is full of great reversals.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

LuckyCat found my meaning precisely- the Blutz Waves idea was a good call not because we need physiological details of how fictional aliens transform into fictional giant monkeys, but to strengthen the dramatic angle. You are more likely to say "Damn, these saiyans are so good at what they do that they have outs to our boys' contingency plans!" when Vegeta transforms by a method that Saiyans put time into researching years ago (You lot thought you were clever for destroying your moon? What do you take us for?) than if he just popped out a fake moon with some convinient bit of Saiyan evolution that Goku naturally does not have.

[ABED]

LuckyCat found my meaning precisely- the Blutz Waves idea was a good call not because we need physiological details of how fictional aliens transform into fictional giant monkeys, but to strengthen the dramatic angle. You are more likely to say "Damn, these saiyans are so good at what they do that they have outs to our boys' contingency plans!" when Vegeta transforms by a method that Saiyans put time into researching years ago (You lot thought you were clever for destroying your moon? What do you take us for?) than if he just popped out a fake moon with some convinient bit of Saiyan evolution that Goku naturally does not have.

But you don't need that long drawn out explanation to make it work, we can see it work. Brevity is a writer's friend when writing exposition, especially fake science. The reversal is great and dramatic, the explanation isn't. It works fine as "Blowing up your moon was a great idea, but alas, we've created a technique that simulates the source of our power", whereas "Do you know why you transform? [insert fake science]. It was a great idea to destroy the moon, but we figured out a way around it by [insert fake science]."

I have no idea what you mean by "convenient bit of Saiyan evolution that Goku naturally does not have."

I don't think Luckycat's idea strengthens anything dramatically.

It also makes Vegeta sound all the more dangerous, as he not only knows about oozaru, but he's extremely familiar with how the transformation works.

I don't think he sounds more dangerous because he understands the mechanics. He's dangerous because he figured out a way around the two biggest drawbacks of the transformation, namely the lose of rationality and the need for an event that happens at only particular times, if that since some planets don't have moons.