Expanded Lore Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

I agree with most people here in that the 12 universes is a great concept. Most people forget that there were originally 18 but 6 were destroyed by the Omni-King, it would be cool to see backstory on how all that went down. If the Omni-King is as strong as they claim, then surely he could transform into another being. I know Toriyama loves sending us the "don't judge a book by its cover", message, but we will see.

Does Whis explanation about how every Universe is a mirror of another actually work with 18 Universes? All mirrors add to 13. The Universes are numbered.
I have no proof, still that 18 Universe line seems completely devoid of any thought. The kinda of line we sometimes get in the anime... I feel it's just to hype the Omni-King even more.

I like the expansion of the multiverse. I hate how all the universes are so similar. It doesn't appear like Goku and co are visiting other universes, but rather, other planets. So what was even the point of this?

We only visited two Universes and neutral space. We can't take any conclusions based on this.
Universes are composed of planets, you want Goku to walk around in space? Maybe asteroids can be an exception or something. Planets are the inhabited spaces of the Universe(s) they're the only places worth visiting.
They could have spiced up the Kaioshin Realm of Universe 10 and the Babarians planet was somewhat uninspired. I would hope planets in different Universes have some wackiness to them.

Oh and completely agree with you regarding the SSJG ritual, it stopped BoG from being close to amazing to me. I would rather Goku just drank some Super Magic God water.

[fadeddreams5]

I expected some creativity, like cube or cone-shaped planets and distorted physics, or lack of ki manipulation. And hell, why not a universe where Goku can freely breathe in space. The possibilities are endless, really.

[Anime Kitten]

I expected some creativity, like cube or cone-shaped planets and distorted physics, or lack of ki manipulation. And why not a universe where Goku can freely breathe in space. The possibilities are endless, really.

It's still possible. Universe 6 is a twin of 7, so you have to expect they're gonna be similar. Universes 1-5 and 8-12 could still be a whole lot different.

[fadeddreams5]

I expected some creativity, like cube or cone-shaped planets and distorted physics, or lack of ki manipulation. And why not a universe where Goku can freely breathe in space. The possibilities are endless, really.

It's still possible. Universe 6 is a twin of 7, so you have to expect they're gonna be similar. Universes 1-5 and 8-12 could still be a whole lot different.

We should cross out universe 10 too. I can't wait to see their gods of destruction, at the very least.

[Anime Kitten]

Well, we should cross out universe 10 too.

Maybe it's a lot different outside the Kai Realm. *shrug*

[saunasolmu]

Does Whis explanation about how every Universe is a mirror of another actually work with 18 Universes? All mirrors add to 13. The Universes are numbered.
I have no proof, still that 18 Universe line seems completely devoid of any thought. The kinda of line we sometimes get in the anime... I feel it's just to hype the Omni-King even more.

New numbers must've been given to the universes after Omni-King destroyed the six universes. It works out just fine if you assume that the universes he destroyed were twins of each others.

The quote was both in anime and manga, so it definitely seems to be a Toriyama-thing.

[Alruneia]

The 18 universes becoming 12 thing is fine, they simply adjusted for it. It was probably like this: There were 18 universes. 9 twin universes. Their numbers added up to 19. 1+18, 2+17... you get the point. Zen'ou blew up three twin universes, so after that, they had to reassign numbers. It became 1+12, 2+11... and their numbers added up to 13. Simple change to make, really.

[fadeddreams5]

Zeno blew up GT's universe. This is canon.

[Lord Beerus]

I expected some creativity, like cube or cone-shaped planets and distorted physics, or lack of ki manipulation. And hell, why not a universe where Goku can freely breathe in space. The possibilities are endless, really.

Didn't Battle Of Gods and Dragon Ball Super already confirm that Goku could breath in space?

[LightBing]

I expected some creativity, like cube or cone-shaped planets and distorted physics, or lack of ki manipulation. And hell, why not a universe where Goku can freely breathe in space. The possibilities are endless, really.

I can't imagine Dragon Ball going in that direction. Way too chaotic. Weird cultures and races are more grounded expectations. You made me think of Space Dandy, I have to get that anime a rewatch.

Does Whis explanation about how every Universe is a mirror of another actually work with 18 Universes? All mirrors add to 13. The Universes are numbered.
I have no proof, still that 18 Universe line seems completely devoid of any thought. The kinda of line we sometimes get in the anime... I feel it's just to hype the Omni-King even more.

New numbers must've been given to the universes after Omni-King destroyed the six universes. It works out just fine if you assume that the universes he destroyed were twins of each others.

The quote was both in anime and manga, so it definitely seems to be a Toriyama-thing.

I guess that would work not that I like it, still seems pretty messy. I thought it was only in the anime for some reason.

[LightBing]

What does everyone think about the new God Link information introduced in the manga?
Do you guys think there's some ritual to link them, since Hakaishin's are nominated and Kaioshin are - with the exception of Zamasu - born into it.
Maybe he have to forget everything Mr.Toriyama said before about the Kaioshins. Zamasu is already a semi-contradiction to the World Tree idea.

Is there a good in-universe reason for this link? Maintaining balance is the only thing I can imagine.

[GodKaio-Ken]

What does everyone think about the new God Link information introduced in the manga?
Do you guys think there's some ritual to link them, since Hakaishin's are nominated and Kaioshin are - with the exception of Zamasu - born into it.
Maybe he have to forget everything Mr.Toriyama said before about the Kaioshins. Zamasu is already a semi-contradiction to the World Tree idea.

Is there a good in-universe reason for this link? Maintaining balance is the only thing I can imagine.

Like you said...balance. I guess so that the God Of Destruction can't just go totally wacky and kill all the Kaioshin.

[precita]

So can someone clear this up, if Supreme Kai dies Beerus would die?

So if Fat Buu killed Supreme Kai when he originally came out way back in the early Buu arc, would Beerus have died?

[GodKaio-Ken]

So can someone clear this up, if Supreme Kai dies Beerus would die?

So if Fat Buu killed Supreme Kai when he originally came out way back in the early Buu arc, would Beerus have died?

If there is no other Kaiohin (alive) left in the Universe Beerus would die.

[LightBing]

Who wants to speculate about Whis race?
The new Priest character, told to be one of five the strongest fighters of all Universe, appears to belong to his race and that of Vados.
Interestingly, they don't bow down to the Omni-King nor do they recoil in fear.

I'm wondering are they the one pulling the strings behind the curtain?

[Anime Kitten]

Considering Whis and Vados are stronger than Beerus and Champa respectively, I'd say even Zen'ō doesn't know everything about them. I personally despise the idea of that character being many levels above Whis. It makes me wonder if the Universe 6/7 set is weak, or each Universe is stronger based on the number (1 is very weak, 12 is insane; it's dumb, but it wouldn't surprise me).

[dbzfan7]

It's opened the door to many possibilities. They'd have struggled I think moving the story forward in any significant way without that idea.

I agree with your first statement, but I honestly don't think Super (or the films prior) have done anything that would absolutely require the concept of the 12 Universes to exist so far. Obviously, this notion will change the moment we get to Zeno's tournament though. (If we get there.)

• Battle of Gods? Universe 7.
• Resurrection "F"? Still in Universe 7.
• Hakaishin Champa Arc? It's easier with things being between Universes, but the Super Dragon Balls could have just been scattered across the universe. Beerus and Champa could have been dual Hakaishin, each watching over half the universe. Zeno could still be the highest being who watches over everything and appoints the gods or whatever. Champa's fighters are the only aspect that directly benefits from the Universe concept; Cabba and Frost specifically. Hit could still have been an ultimate assassin with absurd power whose existence was nothing more than a rumor of a rumor or something. Still, fans already complain about most of the characters, even with them being from a different universe. So what's a liiiittle more contrivance?
• Future" Trunks Arc? Hard to say right this moment. If Zamasu is the cause of Black's origin, he could have just been the first newly appointed Kaioshin since Boo killed them all (in both timelines). No explicit need for Gowasu and Universe 10 yet.

I absolutely love the amount of potential and stuff we can get from 12 universes. It's the biggest thing that can expand the Dragon World massively. Yet you've said exactly why it hardly has meant much to me at all. None of it feels as grand as it should. A lot of the events could easily be rewritten without the idea of 12 universes. Hopefully the Zeno Tournament is what really sells the multiple universes, as right now it's just a still not well enough explored idea yet.

[kinisking]

Considering Whis and Vados are stronger than Beerus and Champa respectively, I'd say even Zen'ō doesn't know everything about them. I personally despise the idea of that character being many levels above Whis. It makes me wonder if the Universe 6/7 set is weak, or each Universe is stronger based on the number (1 is very weak, 12 is insane; it's dumb, but it wouldn't surprise me).

I would love that though. More and more possible strong allies and villians. I don't want the power levels in dragonBall to hit a set limit too soon.

[omaro34]

Zeno blew up GT's universe. This is canon.

The jury is still out on whether most view Super as being better than GT.

[Anime Kitten]

So, how likely does it seem that we'll be introduced to the God(dess) of Destruction from Universe 10? Gowasu could always be revived, which would present an opportunity to showcase him/her.