Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Analytic » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:39 pm

theherodjl wrote:According to movie 12 & 13 and the Daizenshuu it is like this, Gogeta >> Janemba > Hirudegarn > Mystic Gohan.
There are two movie villains strong enough to defeat Mystic Gohan(the majority of Boohan's strength) much like Bootenks did and both of them were considerably weaker in comparison to SSJ Gogeta.
Considering this thread is talking about Boo saga Gogeta, I was not factoring movies.

And why would Janemba be stronger than Hirudegarn? According to Takao Koyama (the main writer for both movies), each movie villain that Goku fights is stronger than the last, and Goku fought Hirudegarn after he fought Janemba.

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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by theherodjl » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:02 pm

Analytic wrote:
theherodjl wrote:According to movie 12 & 13 and the Daizenshuu it is like this, Gogeta >> Janemba > Hirudegarn > Mystic Gohan.
There are two movie villains strong enough to defeat Mystic Gohan(the majority of Boohan's strength) much like Bootenks did and both of them were considerably weaker in comparison to SSJ Gogeta.
Considering this thread is talking about Boo saga Gogeta, I was not factoring movies.

And why would Janemba be stronger than Hirudegarn? According to Takao Koyama (the main writer for both movies), each movie villain that Goku fights is stronger than the last, and Goku fought Hirudegarn after he fought Janemba.
Considering Gogeta is a movie character then I think movies should be factored in to help explain things.

Janemba is also officially stronger than Hirudegarn, at least according to Toei on their old movie webiste.
The phantom majin Hildegarn is a formidable opponent capable of trading blows evenly with even Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but since Janenba from the previous work "The Rebirth of Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta" could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku, strength-wise this makes him No.2 out of the movie series enemies.
I don't make the rules with this one, Toei believes that Janemba > Hirudegarn whether it be Hirudegarn before or after he transforms.
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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Analytic » Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:12 pm

theherodjl wrote:Considering Gogeta is a movie character then I think movies should be factored in to help explain things.
Why? The topic of the thread is about a hypothetical Gogeta from the Boo arc, not the one we saw in Movie 12. Not to mention, Goku in M12 is stronger than he was in the Boo arc, which means that the Gogeta from M12 could possibly be stronger than a hypothetical Boo arc Gogeta, making any of his feats from the movies invalid in this discussion.
theherodjl wrote:Janemba is also officially stronger than Hirudegarn, at least according to Toei on their old movie webiste.
The phantom majin Hildegarn is a formidable opponent capable of trading blows evenly with even Super Saiyan 3 Goku, but since Janenba from the previous work "The Rebirth of Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta" could beat back Super Saiyan 3 Goku, strength-wise this makes him No.2 out of the movie series enemies.
I don't make the rules with this one, Toei believes that Janemba > Hirudegarn whether it be Hirudegarn before or after he transforms.
Okay, but you just completely ignored the statement I showed from the writer of the movies. Why should what other people from Toei say override what he says? If Toriyama's assistant said that Arale was stronger than Freeza and published it on some website, would you take it at face value despite Toriyama saying that Arale could give 23rd TB Goku a good fight, just because it's official?

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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by theherodjl » Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:38 pm

Why? The topic of the thread is about a hypothetical Gogeta from the Boo arc, not the one we saw in Movie 12. Not to mention, Goku in M12 is stronger than he was in the Boo arc, which means that the Gogeta from M12 could possibly be stronger than a hypothetical Boo arc Gogeta, making any of his feats from the movies invalid in this discussion.
The only instance of Gogeta we have seen is from movie 12, GT, and the video games, I can't think of a more reliable source of naming off his feats than material he has appeared in.
What proof is there that Goku is stronger in movie 12 anyways? Given that Gohan isn't in his mystic form in the movie but Gotenks exists I would say that it's more likely Gotenks defeated Fat Boo and it's only a short time after said events so I don't see why Goku would have made a massive leap to make Gogeta many times stronger.
In fact, Vegeta can't of powered up ANY since he died against Majin Boo and only now just got his body back and since the fusion dance requires both participants to be of equal power then Gogeta is based off Vegeta's level of power instead.
Okay, but you just completely ignored the statement I showed from the writer of the movies. Why should what other people from Toei say override what he says? If Toriyama's assistant said that Arale was stronger than Freeza and published it on some website, would you take it at face value despite Toriyama saying that Arale could give 23rd TB Goku a good fight, just because it's official?
Here's what Koyama actually said.
In handling the scripts for the films, what I always worried about each time was the problem of what to do about the opponent Goku fights against. That’s because, at the very least, they had to be stronger than [the ones from] the previous movie.
After much hard work, I was unable to come up with an opponent stronger than Broli, and fell into a rut where I made him appear three times.
That is to say, there’s the matter of questioning the idea of Broli as the strongest. As you are well aware, vehement opinions on the subject have been flying back and forth on this message board, as well as a variety of [other] websites.

For this time, Goku’s opponent, designed by Toriyama-sensei, was even a God of Destruction.
In the world of Dragon Ball Z, that’s a setting where even Broli, before the God of Destruction, would face a gap like that between a Yokozuna and the very bottom of the sumo ranks. That Broli, reduced to a pushover.

Only, from the impression I got of the character on the screen, Broli was scarier, no contest. Am I the only one who found that Broli looked overwhelmingly frightening? Or am I just biased towards my own creation?
Here he says that Broly was his strongest character which means that Bojack, Janemba, and Hirudegarn would not be stronger in his honest opinion, thus this contradicts his initial statement and indicates he only considers each villain to be stronger but not necessarily that they always are. Toei's movie website stated that Janemba is the superior of Hirudegarn and it's not as inconsistent as the screenwriter who admits he has some bias towards his work regarding who is stronger based on just how menacing the character is, I'm not sure how this is supposed to conclude that Janemba < Hirudegarn when the guy doesn't make it entirely clear.
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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by nickzambuto » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:27 pm

Yeah, Koyama seems to be stating that he TRIES to make every movie villain stronger than the last, but is outright admitting that he failed at least once when it came to Broly. So we have no hard evidence indicating Hirudegarn as stronger than Janemba, but several pieces of evidence indicating the reverse. It seems to me the only logical conclusion is to say that Janemba must be stronger than Hirudegarn.

As for movie Gogeta not equaling Boo arc Gogeta, I think, in that case, a way to settle the argument would be to agree that the movie Gogeta who we actually see could defeat Boo, but a hypothetical Gogeta at the time of the Boo arc could not (that isn't what I personally believe, it just seems like a compromise that will make everyone happy)

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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by DragonBallLove » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:18 am

Nejishiki wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
Nejishiki wrote:I'm curious if Gogeta would be capable of purifying Evil Boo just as he did Janenba. It fits in line with the fusion's logic. They (Vegetto and Gogeta) don't seem to attempt for a kill and there's no doubt Gogeta's components would want to spar with him on friendlier terms. It's the reason Oob exists, after all. I think that's more in tune with the philosophy the martial artists tend to share.
"Purifying?" He blew him up.
I mean, whatever it was that was going on with the oni. I didn't have a better choice of word. He was the base of Janenba, so I was implying that regular Boo would just come back the same way after being attacked with that technique.
Any official statement on how the dragons does that Stardust Breaker power of his works? Is just a delayed ki blast or is a purificator as some imply? Perhaps akin to Akkuman's Akumaito Kousen?

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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Kaboom » Fri Sep 09, 2016 1:16 am

There was all kinds of wacky magic shiz going on in Movie 12, especially concerning Janemba. So it's not crazy to assume that just straight-up killing Janemba simply released the young Oni he had possessed somehow. I did a quick check of Daizenshuu #6's guide for the movie, and Daizenshuu #7's bios for both Gogeta and Janemba, and neither of them say anything about the former "purifying" the latter. Just that Gogeta "defeated" or "obliterated" Janemba.

There was no mention of Gogeta's finishing move in Daizenshuu #7's attack guide, either. It has the name "Soul Punisher" in the games and such, but that may just be an embellishment. I don't think it's impossible for it to be some small-scale iteration of the Spirit Bomb and thus be extra effective against evil beings, though. I can't recall who or where I got that idea from.



Anyway, I still think my approach to gauging Gogeta's power is best, especially because it allows the most freedom of opinion. If one assume's Old Kaioshin's line to mean, "it's because of those two that the Potara were able to go so far," that would mean an extra-potent Fusion of Goku and Vegeta was only possible via the Potara. Which would mean the Potara would be the primary reason for Vegetto's strength... which goes against what Old Kaioshin said and is exactly what he chided his younger counterpart for thinking. It all kind of falls apart.

But instead taking it to mean "it's because of those two that the Fusion was able to go so far," which fits cleanly with everything said and shown, then the floodgates are open and there's basically nothing holding back hypothetical Gogeta from having almost any strength level one can imagine. Other than, again, the simple "still weaker than Vegetto" restriction.
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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by ahill1 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:42 am

Kaboom wrote:that would mean an extra-potent Fusion of Goku and Vegeta was only possible via the Potara.
And an extra-potent Potara fusion was possible because two strong people [Goku and Vegeta] were the ones doing it. When Old Kai warns Kibitoshin about his fusion not being enough, he even says "you weren't any special to begin with", implying it requires "strong" peoples to make a stronger fusion.
Kaboom wrote:which goes against what Old Kaioshin said and is exactly what he chided his younger counterpart for thinking. It all kind of falls apart.
The idiot is saying simply merging with the Potara is this incredible, without even thinking of the strength of the fusees, then gets told that it still requires strong enough mergers to get the job done. So one could easily see it as "Idiot, it's because of them merging with the Potara" --- there's no contradiction.

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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Kaboom » Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:47 am

Which still doesn't make such an outcome exclusive to the Potara or exclude the Fusion Dance in any way. If two strong and special people somehow make a stronger Fusion than expected with one method, they can totally do so with another method too. That's the larger point I'm trying to make, that such surprisingly high strength isn't necessarily exclusive to Vegetto or the Potara. So there's no good reason to place lots of silly, overly-strict limits on how strong Gogeta can be.
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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by ahill1 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:07 pm

Kaboom wrote:Which still doesn't make such an outcome exclusive to the Potara or exclude the Fusion Dance in any way
It's the same with the Fusion Dance. "Stonger fuseers = Stronger fusion". That's even implied in two situations:

Goku: “No…I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right? …It's a nasty gamble, but…Seeing those two super-gifted squirts, it made me want to take this gamble…”

That's why Goku even wants to see Goten and Trunks' power before teaching them the fusion.


Chapter: 493 (DBZ 299), P12.2-4
Kaioshin: “In-incredible…S-so this is Fusion?...”
Goku: “N-no…That’s Fusion, no doubt about it, but…Thi-this is Super Saiyan 3…! Un-unbelievable…Those rotten little brats…They al-already became Super Saiyan 3, and that took me years to finally manage it…Am-amazin’…haha…amazin’…!”

Goku kind of correcting Kaioshin by saying it's simply just not fusion, and praising the Kids rather than fusion.

That's what Elder Kai was saying imo, to sum it up "Idiot, look at youself! You're made of a Potara fusion yet you suck!". A Potara fusion obviously will not take everyone to being able to easily make a fool of Boo, the perfect example being Kabitokai.
Kaboom wrote:So there's no good reason to place lots of silly, overly-strict limits on how strong Gogeta can be.
It's not really silly, considering people are basing it off on Boohan's statement, that is, a direct statement. And also on Goku saying Potara is the only option.
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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Kaboom » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:14 pm

ahill1 wrote:
Kaboom wrote:So there's no good reason to place lots of silly, overly-strict limits on how strong Gogeta can be.
It's not really silly, considering people are basing it off on Boohan's statement, that is, a direct statement. And also on Goku saying Potara is the only option.
And I'm not really saying either of them are wrong, just that there's extra elements that neither of them know about or are considering. Gohan-Boo couldn't have predicted Goku and Vegeta making such a good Fusion, and in Goku's experience the Potara really was the only thing that had worked so far. Even Vegetto himself was surprised at his own strength, even though his Goku half knew the Potara would make something stronger. There's no real definitive statements here, just a lot of people having their expectations subverted. So why insist that Gogeta wouldn't or couldn't be surprisingly extra-strong too?

I dunno, it all just reeks to me of wanting to consider Gogeta a (relative) weakling for some reason. When everything can be put together in a way that allows more freedom, why not embrace that? But whatever, you do you and I'll be over here letting Gogeta share some of the hype normally denied to him. :P
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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:20 pm

What makes Buu an expert on fusion, anyway?
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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Tectorman » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:12 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:What makes Buu an expert on fusion, anyway?
He knows something about the dance fusion, at least, since at one point he was comprised of just such a fusion. He should know how strong Goten and Trunks were, he should know how strong Gotenks was, he should know how much of a boost all the SSJ transformations would grant, and he should know how strong Goku and whoever the other power level he's sensing is. So in the absence of a previously unknown factor like a rivalry boost, his statement regarding not being concerned about a potential Goku/whoever-that-other-guy-is fusion wouldn't be anything other than a clear assessment of strength.

As for whether dance fusion allows for a rivalry boost, I wouldn't think so. In that technique, both participants must match. They must match power levels, speed, rhythm, and so on. They have to, if not submit to each other, then at least cooperate with each other and take each other's lead. Doesn't seem like there would be room for a rivalry boost in that paradigm. Could be, but I don't see it.
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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Captain Strawberry » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:26 pm

Nejishiki wrote:I'm curious if Gogeta would be capable of purifying Evil Boo just as he did Janenba. It fits in line with the fusion's logic. They (Vegetto and Gogeta) don't seem to attempt for a kill and there's no doubt Gogeta's components would want to spar with him on friendlier terms. It's the reason Oob exists, after all. I think that's more in tune with the philosophy the martial artists tend to share. While it's on my mind, Boo was still inside of Evil Boo, yes? That leaves potential for a turning. Let's not forget Pure Boo spit him out since his nature held him back.
The magic of the fusion is never really explained. We don't know anything about the Metamorphian other than their traditional clothes.
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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by ahill1 » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:47 pm

Kaboom wrote:So why insist that Gogeta wouldn't or couldn't be surprisingly extra-strong too?
I'm not saying Gogeta couldn't be surprisingly strong, I even think that is a viable option. I'm just saying Elder Kai's statement can be interpreted differently. Not everyone interpret/interprets [?] it as Goku and Vegeta making a stronger fusion than predicted.
Kaboom wrote:Even Vegetto himself was surprised at his own strength, even though his Goku half knew the Potara would make something stronger.
Yeah, Goku knew that merging through Potara would make better results than through the Fusion Dance, but he still couldn't know how much, since it's not like Elder Kai said "the Potara is 3x stronger than Fusion" or something like this. Besides, Vegetto is agreeing with Boo-Gohan that this (Boo getting tooled) shouldn't be happening by saying "don't feel bad, I'm surprised too" or something to that effect. Boo only has knowledge about the Fusion Dance.

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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Nejishiki » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:42 pm

Captain Strawberry wrote:The magic of the fusion is never really explained. We don't know anything about the Metamorphian other than their traditional clothes.
I'm not sure if I'm following your message. The subject my post addressed was how Gogeta would deal with Boo. Whether he can defeat him or not loses relevance as I think he would aim to tame him like Vegetto. He wants to save everyone first before entertaining a battle. Vegetto chose to retrieve everyone from the inside; Gogeta might try something similar. He'll likely desire to keep him alive for his own reasons, if he can help it. After all, when Evil Boo calls Vegetto unfair, he routs the criticism right back at him. When the scenario changed, they found battling Pure Boo to be fair without fusion. I'm not dismissing your accurate assessment, but I'm trying to figure what direction you were going in that response, if you please. :)

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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Analytic » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:45 pm

theherodjl wrote:The only instance of Gogeta we have seen is from movie 12, GT, and the video games, I can't think of a more reliable source of naming off his feats than material he has appeared in.
It's not reliable because you would have to assume that the Gogeta from M12 would be as powerful as a hypothetical one from the Boo arc, which is not supported by anything as far as I am aware.
theherodjl wrote:What proof is there that Goku is stronger in movie 12 anyways?
Vegeta explicitly states in the movie that Goku has been able to train due to having a body and has become stronger than himself, enough so that he was even crying.
theherodjl wrote:In fact, Vegeta can't of powered up ANY since he died against Majin Boo and only now just got his body back and since the fusion dance requires both participants to be of equal power then Gogeta is based off Vegeta's level of power instead.
How does that prove that Gogeta would be based off of Vegeta's power level? Is it ever stated that the suppressed power from the other participant magically goes away post-Fusion?
theherodjl wrote:Here he says that Broly was his strongest character which means that Bojack, Janemba, and Hirudegarn would not be stronger in his honest opinion, thus this contradicts his initial statement and indicates he only considers each villain to be stronger but not necessarily that they always are. Toei's movie website stated that Janemba is the superior of Hirudegarn and it's not as inconsistent as the screenwriter who admits he has some bias towards his work regarding who is stronger based on just how menacing the character is, I'm not sure how this is supposed to conclude that Janemba < Hirudegarn when the guy doesn't make it entirely clear.
All he says is that he fell into a rut and couldn't think of a character stronger than Broly and had to use him for three movies, not that no villain after Broly never surpassed him.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:What makes Buu an expert on fusion, anyway?
Why does he need to be an "expert" to say how strong a fusion of Goku and Vegeta would be? Goku, who had never even tested Fusion before, was able to estimate how strong a fusion of Goten and Trunks would be just by sensing their Ki.

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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Captain Strawberry » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:10 pm

Nejishiki wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:The magic of the fusion is never really explained. We don't know anything about the Metamorphian other than their traditional clothes.
I'm not sure if I'm following your message. The subject my post addressed was how Gogeta would deal with Boo. Whether he can defeat him or not loses relevance as I think he would aim to tame him like Vegetto. He wants to save everyone first before entertaining a battle. Vegetto chose to retrieve everyone from the inside; Gogeta might try something similar. He'll likely desire to keep him alive for his own reasons, if he can help it. After all, when Evil Boo calls Vegetto unfair, he routs the criticism right back at him. When the scenario changed, they found battling Pure Boo to be fair without fusion. I'm not dismissing your accurate assessment, but I'm trying to figure what direction you were going in that response, if you please. :)
I meant the whole purifying thing. We don't know if they can do that. Attacks from fusion happen because it's 'fusion'. Like the ghost attack Gotenks does for example.
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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Nejishiki » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:56 pm

Captain Strawberry wrote:
Nejishiki wrote:
Captain Strawberry wrote:The magic of the fusion is never really explained. We don't know anything about the Metamorphian other than their traditional clothes.
I'm not sure if I'm following your message. The subject my post addressed was how Gogeta would deal with Boo. Whether he can defeat him or not loses relevance as I think he would aim to tame him like Vegetto. He wants to save everyone first before entertaining a battle. Vegetto chose to retrieve everyone from the inside; Gogeta might try something similar. He'll likely desire to keep him alive for his own reasons, if he can help it. After all, when Evil Boo calls Vegetto unfair, he routs the criticism right back at him. When the scenario changed, they found battling Pure Boo to be fair without fusion. I'm not dismissing your accurate assessment, but I'm trying to figure what direction you were going in that response, if you please. :)
I meant the whole purifying thing. We don't know if they can do that. Attacks from fusion happen because it's 'fusion'. Like the ghost attack Gotenks does for example.
Ah, well as I mentioned earlier, it wasn't meant to be that literal. I truly don't know what to call whatever happened to the oni. As for techniques being exclusive to fusion, that's not necessarily the case. Evil Boo was able to spit out ghosts long after Gotenks defused.

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Re: Hypothetical Gogeta (Boo saga)

Post by Captain Strawberry » Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:46 am

Nejishiki wrote: As for techniques being exclusive to fusion, that's not necessarily the case. Evil Boo was able to spit out ghosts long after Gotenks defused.
Well to be fair, Buu is very good at copying techniques.
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