Goku Black should have been his own character

[Doctor.]

Not really, it's just Zamasu's soul with Goku's fighting ability, that's all he wanted.

That's not true, it already has been noted that Black has different personality traits to Zamasu and he even said that Goku's body has been influencing his decisions.

He's certainly his own entity at this point. Saying otherwise is like saying future Trunks and kid Trunks are the same character.

[fadeddreams5]

Not really, it's just Zamasu's soul with Goku's fighting ability, that's all he wanted.

That's not true, it already has been noted that Black has different personality traits to Zamasu and he even said that Goku's body has been influencing his decisions.

He's certainly his own entity at this point. Saying otherwise is like saying future Trunks and kid Trunks are the same character.

They might as well be in EoZ and GT.

Edit: Never mind. One has blue hair now. I forgot.

[SaiyanZ]

Goku cares outside of when they aren't in danger. Hence why he decides to show up for a tournament, or when he decides to bring Gohan along to Kame House. Yusuke Urameshi is similar, he loves his friends and family but can risk them for a good fight as we see in the final arc when he decides on a tournament.

The problem with this is that Goku has no depth as a character of any description, he's just a fighting junkie and this very simplistic view of the world makes trying to write him as anything close to Black really, really difficult. The closest we've come to an evil Goku who could happen within the parameters of Goku's character was Perfect Cell, a fighting junkie wasn't afraid of killing/torturing people to draw out strong fighters.

He has depth, just nothing relating to the worth of humanity as a whole. He doesn't care about them, so he shouldn't have an opinion. And no, no dark journey that makes him kill people, that would just make him a generic Akuma/Kamui (from Gintama) type character.

[ekrolo2]

He has depth, just nothing relating to the worth of humanity as a whole. He doesn't care about them, so he shouldn't have an opinion. And no, no dark journey that makes him kill people, that would just make him a generic Akuma/Kamui (from Gintama) type character.

I can't really agree that he has depth, his selfishness is an interesting point amongst Shonen protagonists and makes him somewhat interesting to talk about but he has no depth: he's a fighting junkie, that's basically it and that doesn't really leave much room for someone to give him a dark turn. The only way I can see it kind of working is if Goku's selfishness got everyone killed and he had no way to bullshit his way out of it.

[SaiyanZ]

He has depth, just nothing relating to the worth of humanity as a whole. He doesn't care about them, so he shouldn't have an opinion. And no, no dark journey that makes him kill people, that would just make him a generic Akuma/Kamui (from Gintama) type character.

I can't really agree that he has depth, his selfishness is an interesting point amongst Shonen protagonists and makes him somewhat interesting to talk about but he has no depth: he's a fighting junkie, that's basically it and that doesn't really leave much room for someone to give him a dark turn. The only way I can see it kind of working is if Goku's selfishness got everyone killed and he had no way to bullshit his way out of it.

I think him killing without a moral compass, then not killing after training with Kami, and then being able to kill again after defeating Freeza on Namek is something of interest to talk about when it comes to him. I think his laid-back attitude kind of lends itself to him being a character who is "just there". You see so many shonen protagonists who are against killing or don't do it nowadays that its kinda refreshing to see someone who can do it without spouting philosophical bs all the time. Even among old protagonists this is true when you think of Kenshin (minus his past as a Hitokiri I mean) and Vash, etc.

[Freeza9000]

He has depth, just nothing relating to the worth of humanity as a whole. He doesn't care about them, so he shouldn't have an opinion. And no, no dark journey that makes him kill people, that would just make him a generic Akuma/Kamui (from Gintama) type character.

I can't really agree that he has depth, his selfishness is an interesting point amongst Shonen protagonists and makes him somewhat interesting to talk about but he has no depth: he's a fighting junkie, that's basically it and that doesn't really leave much room for someone to give him a dark turn. The only way I can see it kind of working is if Goku's selfishness got everyone killed and he had no way to bullshit his way out of it.

I think him killing without a moral compass, then not killing after training with Kami, and then being able to kill again after defeating Freeza on Namek is something of interest to talk about when it comes to him. I think his laid-back attitude kind of lends itself to him being a character who is "just there". You see so many shonen protagonists who are against killing or don't do it nowadays that its kinda refreshing to see someone who can do it without spouting philosophical bs all the time. Even among old protagonists this is true when you think of Kenshin (minus his past as a Hitokiri I mean) and Vash, etc.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. This is why I like Goku and what makes him stand out as a protagonist.

[ekrolo2]

Saying Goku has a moral compass when he refrains from killing people is pretty doubtful since fighting them again is why he does it. Think about, why spare Piccolo? Besides keeping the Dragon Balls around, he's the only challenge Goku has left in the world so why not let him stick around even if he keeps murdering people! Same thing with Vegeta, then Freeza, he flat out revives Boo as Oob so he can train the kid to fight him at his best again.

There might be some shred of him that likes to give people a second chance but make no mistake, Goku's reasons are primarily selfish in nature and he is consistently written like that from the Vegeta fight onwards and its only really GT that gives him somewhat of a more no-nonsense attitude. He tells Baby he's gonna murder him and he does so, same thing with Super 17 and most of the Shadow Dragons. The only one I'm not positive about is Eise since I haven't watched their Japanese fight in a while.

[Doctor.]

Saying Goku has a moral compass when he refrains from killing people is pretty doubtful since fighting them again is why he does it. Think about, why spare Piccolo? Besides keeping the Dragon Balls around, he's the only challenge Goku has left in the world so why not let him stick around even if he keeps murdering people! Same thing with Vegeta, then Freeza, he flat out revives Boo as Oob so he can train the kid to fight him at his best again.

There might be some shred of him that likes to give people a second chance but make no mistake, Goku's reasons are primarily selfish in nature and he is consistently written like that from the Vegeta fight onwards and its only really GT that gives him somewhat of a more no-nonsense attitude. He tells Baby he's gonna murder him and he does so, same thing with Super 17 and most of the Shadow Dragons. The only one I'm not positive about is Eise since I haven't watched their Japanese fight in a while.

Why spare the Ginyu Force though? They're weaklings. He expressed no desire in fighting them again. Freeza too. He told Freeza to disappear and never bother him again. He does seem to refrain from killing.

[DragonBallFoodie]

I can't really agree that he has depth, his selfishness is an interesting point amongst Shonen protagonists and makes him somewhat interesting to talk about but he has no depth: he's a fighting junkie, that's basically it and that doesn't really leave much room for someone to give him a dark turn. The only way I can see it kind of working is if Goku's selfishness got everyone killed and he had no way to bullshit his way out of it.

Childishness is a better term to put it. He was raised in the wilderness and had brief parental guidance, so he knows the basics of right from wrong but he has a very simple look on the world and he won't give up his fighting addiction.

The Sean Schemmel Goku is more a naive country boy, like a slightly less bright Clark Kent.


Black Goku is distinctly smarter and aloof than normal Goku, which is due to Zamasu's intellect in place. But I think Goku would normally have gotten there if he'd gone bad, since he keeps beating up people stronger than him.

[ekrolo2]

Saying Goku has a moral compass when he refrains from killing people is pretty doubtful since fighting them again is why he does it. Think about, why spare Piccolo? Besides keeping the Dragon Balls around, he's the only challenge Goku has left in the world so why not let him stick around even if he keeps murdering people! Same thing with Vegeta, then Freeza, he flat out revives Boo as Oob so he can train the kid to fight him at his best again.

There might be some shred of him that likes to give people a second chance but make no mistake, Goku's reasons are primarily selfish in nature and he is consistently written like that from the Vegeta fight onwards and its only really GT that gives him somewhat of a more no-nonsense attitude. He tells Baby he's gonna murder him and he does so, same thing with Super 17 and most of the Shadow Dragons. The only one I'm not positive about is Eise since I haven't watched their Japanese fight in a while.

Why spare the Ginyu Force though? They're weaklings. He expressed no desire in fighting them again. Freeza too. He told Freeza to disappear and never bother him again. He does seem to refrain from killing.

Touche.

[DragonHermit]

I still have a theory that a Towa-type character planted the evil thoughts in Zamasu/Black's head, that will lead to the next arc.

Maybe that Universe 12 guy who first time travelled is somehow involved.

[Freeza9000]

Maybe that Universe 12 guy who first time travelled is somehow involved.

That was manga only.

[jjgp1112]

Saying Goku has a moral compass when he refrains from killing people is pretty doubtful since fighting them again is why he does it. Think about, why spare Piccolo? Besides keeping the Dragon Balls around, he's the only challenge Goku has left in the world so why not let him stick around even if he keeps murdering people! Same thing with Vegeta, then Freeza, he flat out revives Boo as Oob so he can train the kid to fight him at his best again.

There might be some shred of him that likes to give people a second chance but make no mistake, Goku's reasons are primarily selfish in nature and he is consistently written like that from the Vegeta fight onwards and its only really GT that gives him somewhat of a more no-nonsense attitude. He tells Baby he's gonna murder him and he does so, same thing with Super 17 and most of the Shadow Dragons. The only one I'm not positive about is Eise since I haven't watched their Japanese fight in a while.

This is a rather extreme interpretation. Not only did Goku spare Frieza and Vegeta, he also spared Nappa and the Ginyu Force members after applying lethal, but not fatal, force. He's always made it clear he doesn't respect people who beat up on those who are defenseless or weaker than him, which is why he always urged henchmen to just surrender rather than press the issue.

[Yomi]

I still have a theory that a Towa-type character planted the evil thoughts in Zamasu/Black's head, that will lead to the next arc.

Maybe that Universe 12 guy who first time travelled is somehow involved.

I think that would be lame, since there was all this talk about gods ignoring their subjects and allowing evil. I just hope Zamasu finds the answer to peace. He probably won't. Which will be disappointing. Maybe he'll find a friend in Zeno.

[KinguKurimuzon]

It's funny, when the Universe 6 tournament was still going on, I had a theory that the next saga would involve an evil Goku, only he'd be the Goku from Universe 6. I assumed that since U6 is supposed to be a standard mirror universe (at least in the manga), U6 Goku would've come to earth to save the earth from getting blown the fuck up like how it ended up, only to hit his head and be raised by an evil Grandpa Gohan to be cruel and destructive. I've been enjoying Zamasu, but I still wish my theory was more than just half-right.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I still have a theory that a Towa-type character planted the evil thoughts in Zamasu/Black's head, that will lead to the next arc.

Maybe that Universe 12 guy who first time travelled is somehow involved.

We have already seen why Zamasu has distaste for non-gods first-hand, it makes sense all on its own. Adding magic into the mix would be beating a dead horse.

[Metalwario64]

Saying Goku has a moral compass when he refrains from killing people is pretty doubtful since fighting them again is why he does it. Think about, why spare Piccolo? Besides keeping the Dragon Balls around, he's the only challenge Goku has left in the world so why not let him stick around even if he keeps murdering people! Same thing with Vegeta, then Freeza, he flat out revives Boo as Oob so he can train the kid to fight him at his best again.

There might be some shred of him that likes to give people a second chance but make no mistake, Goku's reasons are primarily selfish in nature and he is consistently written like that from the Vegeta fight onwards and its only really GT that gives him somewhat of a more no-nonsense attitude. He tells Baby he's gonna murder him and he does so, same thing with Super 17 and most of the Shadow Dragons. The only one I'm not positive about is Eise since I haven't watched their Japanese fight in a while.

This is a rather extreme interpretation. Not only did Goku spare Frieza and Vegeta, he also spared Nappa and the Ginyu Force members after applying lethal, but not fatal, force. He's always made it clear he doesn't respect people who beat up on those who are defenseless or weaker than him, which is why he always urged henchmen to just surrender rather than press the issue.

Exactly. Even in the Japanese version, Goku does many dangerous, selfish things, but he's not the 100% self worshiping guy who only thinks of himself that many fans these days make him out to be (which, to me, is just as wrong as the dub's old superhero characterization, just swung in the opposite direction).

[OLKv3]

People don't realize that Cell was pretty much evil Goku

[Jinzoningen MULE]

People don't realize that Cell was pretty much evil Goku

He wasn't really, his mannerisms and personality didn't favor Goku. The only resemblance is their love of battle and self-improvement. Even though he's not an evil Goku, I am willing to concede that he's pretty much the equivalent of an OP Saiyan.

[Lionel]

This may have been possible if Goku's Saiyan memories had not been erased from his mind. A philosophically complex or introspective Goku does not adequately mesh well together. I do agree more could have been achieved to properly differentiate Black from Future Zamasu. Some moral ambivalence over the severity of their methods coupled with more of a grief-stricken but suppressed demeanour around Black over the death of Gowasu could help offer a provocative contrast between the two partners. The lack of impetus or exacerbation from exposure to Goku in the future would have helped to mollify his rage.