Are power levels Bullshit?

[Lord Beerus]

In the manga they were pretty consistent and straight forward.

If that were the case, power level debates, or even the thread itself on this very forum, wouldn't exist.

But here we are.

[Boo Machine]

If by power levels you mean numbers and charts then they hold very little weight to me.

I'm all for consistency, but if the charts are a little off or the series decides to make a few liberties then I won't be losing any sleep as long as it's fun.

[TheUltimateNinja]

In the manga they were pretty consistent and straight forward.

If that were the case, power level debates, or even the thread itself on this very forum, wouldn't exist.

But here we are.

The only option now is for you to rewrite DB.

[Lord Beerus]

In the manga they were pretty consistent and straight forward.

If that were the case, power level debates, or even the thread itself on this very forum, wouldn't exist.

But here we are.

The only option now is for you to rewrite DB.

That's too heavy of a burden for one mere mortal to carry out.

[TheUltimateNinja]

If that were the case, power level debates, or even the thread itself on this very forum, wouldn't exist.

But here we are.

The only option now is for you to rewrite DB.

That's too heavy of a burden for one mere mortal to carry out.

Toriyama did it and he didn't even have a base to modify.

[Lord Beerus]

The only option now is for you to rewrite DB.

That's too heavy of a burden for one mere mortal to carry out.

Toriyama did it and he didn't even have a base to modify.

Toriyama added a few backstories and epilogue for certain characters, but the original story remains the same.

[TheUltimateNinja]

That's too heavy of a burden for one mere mortal to carry out.

Toriyama did it and he didn't even have a base to modify.

Toriyama added a few backstories and epilogue for certain characters, but the original story remains the same.

I was talking about writing the series in the first place, he didn't already have a story in place to work from, and he had to draw illustrations as well.

[The Monkey King]

In the manga they were pretty consistent and straight forward.

If that were the case, power level debates, or even the thread itself on this very forum, wouldn't exist.

But here we are.

I disagree, they really are straight forward.

Most power level arguments regarding the manga already have an answer and only come up during the Buu saga when Toriyama was running out of steam.
I'm referring to debates such as "who's the strongest Majin?", "Buu saga SSJ3 Goku vs U.Gohan" and "The power of Pre-ROSAT Gotenks".
For me reading the manga made the answer to these questions pretty obvious; they have only persisted so much because some Goku fans don't like the idea of him being weaker than other characters.

Ask me any power level related question regarding the DB manga and I can most likely give you a satisfactory answer.
Unlike with Super where I'd just have to shrug my shoulders and say "Just go with the bullshit"

[TheUltimateNinja]

I disagree, they really are straight forward.

Most power level arguments regarding the manga already have an answer and only come up during the Buu saga when Toriyama was running out of steam.
I'm referring to debates such as "who's the strongest Majin?", "Buu saga SSJ3 Goku vs U.Gohan" and "The power of Pre-ROSAT Gotenks".
For me reading the manga made the answer to these questions pretty obvious; they have only persisted so much because some Goku fans don't like the idea of him being weaker than other characters.

Ask me any power level related question regarding the DB manga and I can most likely give you a satisfactory answer.
Unlike with Super where I'd just have to shrug my shoulders and say "Just go with the bullshit"

Tell me about Base Gotenks.

[Lord Beerus]

In the manga they were pretty consistent and straight forward.

If that were the case, power level debates, or even the thread itself on this very forum, wouldn't exist.

But here we are.

I disagree, they really are straight forward.

Most power level arguments regarding the manga already have an answer and only come up during the Buu saga when Toriyama was running out of steam.
I'm referring to debates such as "who's the strongest Majin?", "Buu saga SSJ3 Goku vs U.Gohan" and "The power of Pre-ROSAT Gotenks".
For me reading the manga made the answer to these questions pretty obvious; they have only persisted so much because some Goku fans don't like the idea of him being weaker than other characters.

Ask me any power level related question regarding the DB manga and I can most likely give you a satisfactory answer.
Unlike with Super where I'd just have to shrug my shoulders and say "Just go with the bullshit"

That's pretty big generalisation for why power level debates such as "who's the strongest Majin?", "Buu saga SSJ3 Goku vs U.Gohan" and "The power of Pre-ROSAT Gotenks". There are some people who are just confused by what the narrative structure of that arc and can completely determine who is stronger than who.

Plus, there are quite a few power level debates that still rage on to this day. Such as:
- Who is strongest earthling?
- How strong was Krillin on Namek?
- How strong was Piccolo before fusing with Nail?
- How did Freeza get stronger from cheaply applied cybernetic replacements?
- How could the Androids be more powerful than SSJ's if Gero had not data on them? (This is more of a personal peeve)
- Just how strong is Pre-ROSAT Base & SSJ Gotenks?
- How strong was Dabra?
- Was Gohan a SSJ2 or SSJ1 when he fought Dabra?
- How strong was Base Vegeta if he could still live after getting his ass kicked by Kid Boo?

There is one major question about Super that need to be answered in terms of power scaling:
- When do Goku and Vegeta use God ki outside of Super Saiyan Blue?

Answering that could solve a lot of shit out.

[The Monkey King]

Tell me about Base Gotenks.

Not too much to say. As far as Buu saga base saiyans go he was indeed in a league of his own, only 2nd to Base Vegito.

The fact that he fought Fat Buu as a base saiyan and didn't die (unlike Vegeta) and managed to escape (unlike Gohan) speaks volumes.

After training in the ROSAT he powered up considerably as seen by Piccolo's quote regarding him:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

[TheUltimateNinja]

That's pretty big generalisation for why power level debates such as "who's the strongest Majin?", "Buu saga SSJ3 Goku vs U.Gohan" and "The power of Pre-ROSAT Gotenks". There are some people who are just confused by what the narrative structure of that arc and can completely determine who is stronger than who.

Plus, there are quite a few power level debates that still rage on to this day. Such as:
- Who is strongest earthling?
- How strong was Krillin on Namek?
- How strong was Piccolo before fusing with Nail?
- How did Freeza get stronger from cheaply applied cybernetic replacements?
- How could the Androids be more powerful than SSJ's if Gero had not data on them? (This is more of a personal peeve)
- Just how strong is Pre-ROSAT Base & SSJ Gotenks?
- How strong was Dabra?
- Was Gohan a SSJ2 or SSJ1 when he fought Dabra?
- How strong was Base Vegeta if he could still live after getting his ass kicked by Kid Boo?

There is one major question about Super that need to be answered in terms of power scaling:
- When do Goku and Vegeta use God ki outside of Super Saiyan Blue?

Answering that could solve a lot of shit out.

We do know a lot of those.

-Kuririn is the strongest.

-Stronger than Ginyu-Goku, at 75,000 if you believe the guides.

-We don't know this, my hunch is he's around the same level as Nail, perhaps slightly weaker.

-We don't know about cheaply, perhaps their functions are simply superior to his organic parts.

-Guess Gero just wanted to go way overkill, maybe that's simply the baseline power for infinite energy models.

-According to the Daizenshuu, weaker than Majin Vegeta.

-Weaker than Cell.

-No lightning or SSJ2 hairstyle, this would suggest he was only using MSSJ.

-Satan survived some hits too, guess good guys just have insane durability sometimes.

-Presumably whenever they're facing God tier opponents.

Tell me about Base Gotenks.

Not too much to say. As far as Buu saga base saiyans go he was indeed in a league of his own, only 2nd to Base Vegito.

The fact that he fought Fat Buu as a base saiyan and didn't die (unlike Vegeta) and managed to escape (unlike Gohan) speaks volumes.

After training in the ROSAT he powered up considerably as seen by Piccolo's quote regarding him:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

On the other hand, Buu didn't have orders to kill him whereas he was specifically ordered to kill Vegeta and co., maybe Buu just thrashed him and let him go.

[Lord Beerus]

Tell me about Base Gotenks.

Not too much to say. As far as Buu saga base saiyans go he was indeed in a league of his own, only 2nd to Base Vegito.

The fact that he fought Fat Buu as a base saiyan and didn't die (unlike Vegeta) and managed to escape (unlike Gohan) speaks volumes.

After training in the ROSAT he powered up considerably as seen by Piccolo's quote regarding him:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

But Majin Boo didn't kill Vegeta. He beat him unconscious but Vegeta killed himself. Same deal with Gohan. Majin Boo didn't kill him either. In fact, he took a full on blast at point blank range from Majin Boo, as a Super Saiyan, and didn't die. And even after Base Gotenks seemingly becomes more powerful in the ROSAT, Super Boo no sells everything Gotenks throws at his and smacks him around like nothing. Hell, it isn't until Gotenks turns SSJ3 that he gets some major offence on Super Boo.

That's pretty big generalisation for why power level debates such as "who's the strongest Majin?", "Buu saga SSJ3 Goku vs U.Gohan" and "The power of Pre-ROSAT Gotenks". There are some people who are just confused by what the narrative structure of that arc and can completely determine who is stronger than who.

Plus, there are quite a few power level debates that still rage on to this day. Such as:
- Who is strongest earthling?
- How strong was Krillin on Namek?
- How strong was Piccolo before fusing with Nail?
- How did Freeza get stronger from cheaply applied cybernetic replacements?
- How could the Androids be more powerful than SSJ's if Gero had not data on them? (This is more of a personal peeve)
- Just how strong is Pre-ROSAT Base & SSJ Gotenks?
- How strong was Dabra?
- Was Gohan a SSJ2 or SSJ1 when he fought Dabra?
- How strong was Base Vegeta if he could still live after getting his ass kicked by Kid Boo?

There is one major question about Super that need to be answered in terms of power scaling:
- When do Goku and Vegeta use God ki outside of Super Saiyan Blue?

Answering that could solve a lot of shit out.

We do know a lot of those.

-Kuririn is the strongest.

-Stronger than Ginyu-Goku, at 75,000 if you believe the guides.

-We don't know this, my hunch is he's around the same level as Nail, perhaps slightly weaker.

-We don't know about cheaply, perhaps their functions are simply superior to his organic parts.

-Guess Gero just wanted to go way overkill, maybe that's simply the baseline power for infinite energy models.

-According to the Daizenshuu, weaker than Majin Vegeta.

-Weaker than Cell.

-No lightning or SSJ2 hairstyle, this would suggest he was only using MSSJ.

-Satan survived some hits too, guess good guys just have insane durability sometimes.

-Presumably whenever they're facing God tier opponents.

We're talking strictly about the manga. Supplementary material not included. And lot of your responses imply quite a bit of guesswork in needed to fill in the hole. A scenario that is all too similar to what is going on with Super in its bogus power scaling. Nothing is concrete.

[PsionicWarrior]

Trunks as SSJ2 only traded blows with Rose Black once and that was after a rage boost. He mostly fought future zamasu and left black to goku. People need to pay attention to what they're watching and stop bringing this up. No offence.

Even if SSJ2 Trunks is as strong as SSJ3 Goku by that time like they say in the manga, it still doesn't add up, technically he shouldn't be able to lay a finger on SSJR Black, they should have been on a complete different level, this was for narrative purpose and they really couldn't care less about power levels consistency in this instance lol

I know there is also power levels inconsistencies in Z but they weren't THAT straight to our faces lol

[Cipher]

There's a relative sense of who's stronger than who, and intellectual increasing of scale that relies on comparisons to previous characters once capacity for visual depictions of power cap out, that is somewhat important to understanding the series as a fighting drama. I can understand people becoming frustrated when relative strength becomes unclear on a broad scale; the series makes that element important.

Past that though, when it gets to the level of fan trivia, numerical multipliers, and comparisons between two characters in the same relative range, yes, it's bullshit. I understand there's a game to it certain fans enjoy playing, but I've never seen the appeal. To each their own.

[kinisking]

I don't like handwaving these sorts of things away because "it's just a kids show." I don't think power levels need to be so precise and nailed down on a numerical level but I do expect logical consistency in stories, not because I'm anal, but because lack of logic hurts my ability to enjoy something. It's one reason the last DBZ movie bugged me.

This perfectly sums up my feelings. No, I'm not a huge power level fanatic. However, I like some god damn consistency. It takes me out of the story if the thing that's happening in front of me doesn't make a lick of sense. Part of the reasons I dislike time travel . I rarely fully understand them and most of the time they have paradoxes or plot holes that I don't like.

[Ssenrof]

Swap Ron Wensley for Harry Potter and you have Harry Potter.

I think prodigious talent falls under the category of proper justification.

Of course it does- but you can't be prodigious one arc and then lose all your talent in the next and vice versa.

We saw trunks train with Vegeta during the android/cell arcs. He didn't showcase anything remotely comparable to his godly "talent" in Super.

Dragon Ball Z consistently portrayed gohan from a young age to have potential- so it makes sense that he has potential realized in cell arc.

Dragon ball Super- gives trunks the potential to do whatever he wants- mafuba in 5? genki dama by accident?

If trunks really had the potential Super says he has- then he should have Massively surpassed Vegeta/Goku/Cell during the Time Chamber Training.

[FoolsGil]

If they hadn't become bs by Super, well they are now.

[Luso Saiyan]

Most power level arguments regarding the manga already have an answer and only come up during the Buu saga when Toriyama was running out of steam.

No. Toriyama dropped power levels way back during the Freeza arc. They ceased to matter. They were innacurate measurements of power. It's not Toriyama running out of steam, it's people choosing to focus and argue over a concept that was deliberately dropped for its lack of importance and accuracy in this fictional universe.

[PsionicWarrior]

No. Toriyama dropped power levels way back during the Freeza arc. They ceased to matter. They were innacurate measurements of power. It's not Toriyama running out of steam, it's people choosing to focus and argue over a concept that was deliberately dropped for its lack of importance and accuracy in this fictional universe.

I wouldn't say it's not important, even if deliberately dropped, it has always been enjoyable to see characters grow stronger and follow them on their path, powerups coming out of nowhere are just lazy, I don't ask for something surgically accurate, but dropping that aspect completely altogether is certainly frustrating.

Also I disagree with you saying they ceased to matter during Freeza arc, I think they are there in the whole of Z even if there is a few inconsistencies here and there lol