The new arc will (may?) settle an old debate: Tenshinhan vs. Kuririn

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I don't know what to think. Whether Tenshinhan counts as human or not is debatable. If we assume Tenshinhan isn't human, going by the characters' history, I'd say Tenshinhan is greater. If Tenshinhan is human, well, Kuririn is explicitly said to be the strongest, so there you go. Since Toriyama is never one to be hyper-literal, I side with the notion that Tenshinhan is human. Although I'm also fairly confident that Toriyama wasn't thinking of Tenshinhan when Kuririn was said to be the strongest, since he wasn't an active character at the time, and we all know how Toriyama's memory is.

I actually don't care who's stronger, but if we're ever going to be absolutely sure, they'd better have active, specific roles in the upcoming tournament.

[VegettoEX]

I actually don't care who's stronger, but if we're ever going to be absolutely sure, they'd better have active, specific roles in the upcoming tournament.

And even then, a perfectly valid viewpoint is "Super doesn't count; I'm only concerned with the original 42-volume manga serialization."

I'm not saying I agree with that (or, honestly, even have a horse remotely in this race), but I could understand that sentiment.

[JulianStyles]

I think the proof came in ROF. Both were given the same task. 170 soilders. Tien succeeded with out a scratch. Krillin did not. I believe the weaker ones were portrayed. Roshi and Jacko were the most beat up. Roshi struggled the most to let you know he was the weakest. When it comes to the soilders. Piccolo,Tien and Gohan were the cream of the crop.

But unfortunately the excuse for Krillin is we can't measure anything against Freeza's soilders. Even though Krillin lost to them and needed to be saved by Gohan in the movie. By Tienshinhan in the series.

I also want to address the comment if Tien is shown to be stronger next arc doesn't mean he was always stronger. Lol yes it does. Because no interview has come out. People want to use the strongest Earthling statement. Instead of breaking down the series. So if it's proven wrong then all previous thinking is wrong. And Tien not being in the same category as Krillin is proven right.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I think the proof came in ROF. Both were given the same task. 170 soilders. Tien succeeded with out a scratch. Krillin did not.

In DBS, Kuririn did just fine once he got over his boring spout of PTSD, it has little to do with his physical strength. In the movie (a.k.a: The only version that really matters), Kuririn did absolutely fine throughout. In either version, such little relative focus is put on them that it's hardly worth judging anything by.

[DBZ Macky]

I completely agree with VegettoEX. Even IF we get legitimate evidence pointing towards Kuririn being stronger, I can bet that some fans would still not accept it, since it would clash with their pre-concieved notions.

They will either find a loophole around whatever scenes seem to indicate Kuririn's superiority OR they would just straight up say something like "Super isn't canon" or "Toriyama is senile".

I told someone about how Mr. Toriyama himself claimed that Kuririn was the strongest Earthling and he literally had no better response than insulting Toriyama himself, calling him a "senile piece of shit".

I think there's really no reason for the "discussion" to get so heated. We're all fans of the same franchise and presumably love both Kuririn and Tenshinhan.

[Shinda Forever]

I think the proof came in ROF. Both were given the same task. 170 soilders. Tien succeeded with out a scratch. Krillin did not.

In DBS, Kuririn did just fine once he got over his boring spout of PTSD, it has little to do with his physical strength. In the movie (a.k.a: The only version that really matters), Kuririn did absolutely fine throughout. In either version, such little relative focus is put on them that it's hardly worth judging anything by.

Did he? How fine did he do when Gohan had to save him in ROF in the movie.

TENSHINHAN (Hikaru Midorikawa)
A martial artist formerly of the Crane School, who had aspired to become the world's best hitman, but had a change of heart after meeting Goku & co. He had continued on a journey of training apart from Goku and the others, but perceiving Freeza's massively powerful ki, he rushes to the scene.

So Hitto was inspired in Tenshinhan, therefore, since Hitto is stronger than Kuririn, Tenshinhan wins.

[JulianStyles]

I actually don't care who's stronger, but if we're ever going to be absolutely sure, they'd better have active, specific roles in the upcoming tournament.

And even then, a perfectly valid viewpoint is "Super doesn't count; I'm only concerned with the original 42-volume manga serialization."

I'm not saying I agree with that (or, honestly, even have a horse remotely in this race), but I could understand that sentiment.

So Akira writing the Arcs of Super doesn't count? Even the original manga favors Tien. Android-Buu arc Tien has made more of an impact and shown greater power. Buu saga. Krillin is seen but is just an observer. When Tien shows up he does something relevant. Deflecting buutenks blast and saving Dende,Satan directly affects the triumph at the end of the story.

Now we can say well we don't know how strong buutenks blast was or that doesn't prove anything. The writer gave one a sit back role. And the other a meaningful one. How the author writes characters is huge in how he views their power and role.

[VegettoEX]

I think the proof came in ROF. Both were given the same task. 170 soilders. Tien succeeded with out a scratch. Krillin did not. I believe the weaker ones were portrayed. Roshi and Jacko were the most beat up. Roshi struggled the most to let you know he was the weakest. When it comes to the soilders. Piccolo,Tien and Gohan were the cream of the crop.

Another valid point would be to say, however, that Toriyama's script for that part literally just says "An astounding battle begins!" and the section ends with "Gohan is strongest. And Piccolo's strong too. Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Kame-sennin, and even Jaco all play a big role."

So if you're a person that only goes by Toriyama's word, the events in the final version of the film (which have since been re-told by Dragon Ball Super) are irrelevant.

And again, I'm not saying I agree with this viewpoint or particularly care, but if you're going to outline everything and all scenarios for this discussion, you need to actually do so.

[JulianStyles]

I think the proof came in ROF. Both were given the same task. 170 soilders. Tien succeeded with out a scratch. Krillin did not.

In DBS, Kuririn did just fine once he got over his boring spout of PTSD, it has little to do with his physical strength. In the movie (a.k.a: The only version that really matters), Kuririn did absolutely fine throughout. In either version, such little relative focus is put on them that it's hardly worth judging anything by.

Exactly what I'm talking about with excuses or turning a blind eye. Where did Krillin do fine when he was down and he said Gohan you saved my life? One needed help the other didn't.

Also in the series Krillins hesitancy is mental weakness. How can he be relied on when he's always second guessing himself, not disciplined in his craft?

[JulianStyles]

I think the proof came in ROF. Both were given the same task. 170 soilders. Tien succeeded with out a scratch. Krillin did not. I believe the weaker ones were portrayed. Roshi and Jacko were the most beat up. Roshi struggled the most to let you know he was the weakest. When it comes to the soilders. Piccolo,Tien and Gohan were the cream of the crop.

Another valid point would be to say, however, that Toriyama's script for that part literally just says "An astounding battle begins!" and the section ends with "Gohan is strongest. And Piccolo's strong too. Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Kame-sennin, and even Jaco all play a big role."

So if you're a person that only goes by Toriyama's word, the events in the final version of the film (which have since been re-told by Dragon Ball Super) are irrelevant.

And again, I'm not saying I agree with this viewpoint or particularly care, but if you're going to outline everything and all scenarios for this discussion, you need to actually do so.

We don't know what question Akira answered and what information he told the animators. We as fans can not dismiss people who know Akira and have the rights to DragonBall.

[DBZ Macky]

I think the proof came in ROF. Both were given the same task. 170 soilders. Tien succeeded with out a scratch. Krillin did not.

In DBS, Kuririn did just fine once he got over his boring spout of PTSD, it has little to do with his physical strength. In the movie (a.k.a: The only version that really matters), Kuririn did absolutely fine throughout. In either version, such little relative focus is put on them that it's hardly worth judging anything by.

Exactly what I'm talking about with excuses or turning a blind eye. Where did Krillin do fine when he was down and he said Gohan you saved my life? One needed help the other didn't.

Also in the series Krillins hesitancy is mental weakness. How can he be relied on when he's always second guessing himself, not disciplined in his craft?

That's been Kuririn's character for the whole series.
He's a person who isn't aware of his own power. Sure, he's not too confident in his abilities BUT he's also one of the bravest fighters in the series.

I'd go as far as to say that this is actually one of the advantages he has over the relatively more reckless Tenshinhan.

[VegettoEX]

We don't know what question Akira answered and what information he told the animators. We as fans can not dismiss people who know Akira and have the rights to DragonBall.

Sure, but if the best we can do is go off of things that have actually been printed for us to read and learn from, that's better than making up scenarios as you seem to keep doing.

As I keep saying, I have no horse in this race. I like both characters. I don't want to or feel the need to root for either of them. I don't like strength debates. I think they're distracting from learning more about the series itself and the people who created it, which leads to a more fulfilling enjoyment of the series, its influences, and the things it went on to influence.

Honestly, though? As I read through this thread? And every single word that every single person has written? I'm siding with Kuririn so far.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

We don't know what question Akira answered and what information he told the animators. We as fans can not dismiss people who know Akira and have the rights to DragonBall.

I doubt Toriyama personally sat down and managed than animators, that's absurd. Moreover, we do know Toriyama's script for the RoF movie, so I don't get your point.

[Kaboom]

They will either find a loophole around whatever scenes seem to indicate Kuririn's superiority OR they would just straight up say something like "Super isn't canon" or "Toriyama is senile".
I told someone about how Mr. Toriyama himself claimed that Kuririn was the strongest Earthling and he literally had no better response than insulting Toriyama himself, calling him a "senile piece of shit".

This is really what bothers me most about this "debate." You can believe whatever you want or count whatever sources you see fit for yourself. But when above all the other uncontradicted sources, even word of god from the original author isn't enough for you, and you find yourself needing to devise ways to discount or undermine it... That should be a pretty big sign that something's wrong. I only ever see one "side" of this particular issue going to such irrational lengths.

[JulianStyles]

I think the proof came in ROF. Both were given the same task. 170 soilders. Tien succeeded with out a scratch. Krillin did not. I believe the weaker ones were portrayed. Roshi and Jacko were the most beat up. Roshi struggled the most to let you know he was the weakest. When it comes to the soilders. Piccolo,Tien and Gohan were the cream of the crop.

Another valid point would be to say, however, that Toriyama's script for that part literally just says "An astounding battle begins!" and the section ends with "Gohan is strongest. And Piccolo's strong too. Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Kame-sennin, and even Jaco all play a big role."

So if you're a person that only goes by Toriyama's word, the events in the final version of the film (which have since been re-told by Dragon Ball Super) are irrelevant.

And again, I'm not saying I agree with this viewpoint or particularly care, but if you're going to outline everything and all scenarios for this discussion, you need to actually do so.

Also the full script wasn't released. Just a memo. This is from the website we are currently on. http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -comments/

Sof we don't have the full outline. But comparing the 2 movies to the series. Here's what we can determine what was outlined. In BOG Krillin doesn't attempt to help against Beerus. In ROF Krillin has some struggles. Because both are consistent with movie and series.

[VegettoEX]

Also the full script wasn't released.

Yes it was. It's included in Volume 'F', which I just quoted from above. We did not provide a complete translation of the entire script on our website, but rather just the bonus, extra comments. In each of our appropriate news updates, we noted how it was going to include, "the complete script of the film" (which it did, in fact, contain).

[JulianStyles]

I just provided a link to the script released only being a memo. I do not pick and choose to believe. That's a Krillin apologist. It's also insane to think Akira doesn't talk to people on what's proper portrayal of his characters and situations. In fact on this website are detailed accounts of how over worked Akira was back in Z. Because he did more than thenough manga. He was involved with everything.

Also the people who create DB is more than just Akira. They know more than us. So stop trying to dismiss people who have intimate knowledge of DB.

[Doctor.]

Also the full script wasn't released.

Yes it was. It's included in Volume 'F', which I just quoted from above. We did not provide a complete translation of the entire script on our website, but rather just the bonus, extra comments. In each of our appropriate news updates, we noted how it was going to include, "the complete script of the film" (which it did, in fact, contain).

Didn't Herms post the script in the F movie thread? I faintly remember him doing so.

[VegettoEX]

Your response is very difficult to understand. I can't be held responsible for you not understanding what the book is and what it contains. The fact that you instead choose to ignore this and call me childish names in fact proves why Kaboom was probably in the right for initially locking the thread.

[JulianStyles]

Also the full script wasn't released.

Yes it was. It's included in Volume 'F', which I just quoted from above. We did not provide a complete translation of the entire script on our website, but rather just the bonus, extra comments. In each of our appropriate news updates, we noted how it was going to include, "the complete script of the film" (which it did, in fact, contain).

Then tell me this. You know for sure that's all Akira told the staff? Nothing else went on? Why is the message consistent with movies and series? Who's more capable of speaking on DB. You or people who create it and actually have been in the same room as Akira?