Super Saiyan Grade 3 vs Super Saiyan 2

[cheddarsword]

hmm... so then... after watching the video...

it seems that what trunks did was drop from super saiyan 2 down to super saiyan and boosted up to grade 3.

i say this because super saiyan 2 has the "lightning aura", which trunks indeed did have PRIOR to switching to grade 3. however, this aura was GONE when he switched to Grade 3.

thus, you would assume that a Grade 3 Super Saiyan 2 would keep the lightning aura, possibly adding even more lightning sparks. none of that happened.

this, along with what Doctor stated above me, proves a point.

just because you've learned how to "upgrade" a form of Super Saiyan doesn't mean you can apply that form to the next level of Super Saiyan automatically. you have to learn how to upgrade, or "master", each form individually.

as such, considering that when broly is seen as "legendary super saiyan 4", that form is indeed unique to him, since he can seemingly apply it to any form he takes. even if it is comparable to what one might call "grade 4", it appears to in fact be unique to the legendary super saiyan.

so glad i decided to check this topic out. it's been rather informative for me, as i was curious about this.

[Son_Gohan]

Trunks being amazed at Goku's power doesn't make him the biggest ki felt at that point. Absolutely impossible since Cell stated that Grade 3 Trunks was stronger than him.
If you want to argue like that, then that would mean that Base Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku since the Z-fighters were amazed at his ki when he was formed.

Krillin states that Goku's ki outstripped everyone up till then; and he had previously sensed SSJ Grade 3 Trunks:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P7.1-3
Context: everyone gawking at Goku’s full power
Kuririn: “This really is an incredible ki…! It figures he’d outstrip everyone.”
Gohan: “…Why is everyone so surprised…I think he really is incredible, but…”

Statements tend to get superceded as the story evolves. I mean Buutenks stated he was the "strongest majin" in past, present and future... only for it to be retconned just a few chapters later.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Where does that image come from?

It's from a guidebook called Dragon Ball The Legend of Manga published by Shueisha.

Krillin states that Goku's ki outstripped everyone up till then; and he had previously sensed SSJ Grade 3 Trunks:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P7.1-3
Context: everyone gawking at Goku’s full power
Kuririn: “This really is an incredible ki…! It figures he’d outstrip everyone.”
Gohan: “…Why is everyone so surprised…I think he really is incredible, but…”

Statements tend to get superceded as the story evolves. I mean Buutenks stated he was the "strongest majin" in past, present and future... only for it to be retconned just a few chapters later.

This doesn't change the fact that Cell stated that Grade 3 Trunks was stronger than him, thus you get Grade 3 Trunks>Cell>Goku.

The statements have to be reconciled. Goku outstripped everyone, but Trunks abandoned the form, so that power isn't being accounted for. It's a useless power. When Goku stated that Gohan was stronger than him, he wasn't taking his own hypothetical Grade 3 power into account. That doesn't make sense since it's a useless power.

[Son_Gohan]

This doesn't change the fact that Cell stated that Grade 3 Trunks was stronger than him, thus you get Grade 3 Trunks>Cell>Goku.

The statements have to be reconciled. Goku outstripped everyone, but Trunks abandoned the form, so that power isn't being accounted for. It's a useless power. When Goku stated that Gohan was stronger than him, he wasn't taking his own hypothetical Grade 3 power into account. That doesn't make sense since it's a useless power.

Krillin was sensing Trunks' power from afar, he didn't know the reason why he suddenly reverted or about the form's drawbacks; he was judging on power alone. In the same sense, he was judging Goku by his Ki before he actually started fighting.

[TheGodfather93]

Ugh. Damn guidebooks with their confusing ass information that tends not to make sense a lot of the time. Does Toriyama even have any input in a lot of the shit that gets published in those things, especially when it concerns power levels and how strong various forms are?

Disregarding what happens in Super, both because the powerscaling in that series is whack and because it's never stated whether Trunks reverted to SSJ or stayed in SSJ2 when going Grade 3, the power of characters at the Cell Games can be accurately gauged to a degree.

If SSJ Grade 3 was anywhere near the same tier of power as SSJ2, Trunks would've been able to pulverise a heavily suppressed Perfect Cell with just one blow. Just a few regular hits from a casual SSJ2 Gohan were able to make a max power Perfect Cell crap himself and spit out #18. SSJ2 is a whole other level of power compared to any of the SSJ1 forms - in pre-Super DB at least. That's why everyone at the Cell Games was so shocked when Gohan transformed, because it was a power unlike anything they'd ever felt before.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Krillin was sensing Trunks' power from afar, he didn't know the reason why he suddenly reverted or about the form's drawbacks; he was judging on power alone. In the same sense, he was judging Goku by his Ki before he actually started fighting.

We still end up with Grade 3 Trunks>Cell>Goku due to Cell's statement, so it doesn't really matter what Krillin says. His statement has wiggle room. Cell's does not.

Regardless, Krillin knows that Trunks' far superior power was of no use against Cell simply on the basis that he lost and the readers know the reason as well. Useless power is not being taken into account.

[Son_Gohan]

We still end up with Grade 3 Trunks>Cell>Goku due to Cell's statement, so it doesn't really matter what Krillin says. His statement has wiggle room. Cell's does not.

Regardless, Krillin knows that Trunks' far superior power was of no use against Cell simply on the basis that he lost and the readers know the reason as well. Useless power is not being taken into account.

Even in that regard it doesn't really hold up because Cell was able to transform into that state as well during the fight, and his base power was evidently stronger than their SSJ Grade II forms. So if his transformation was essentially the same as SSJ Grade III, than Cell should possess even more power in the form than Trunks did.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

We still end up with Grade 3 Trunks>Cell>Goku due to Cell's statement, so it doesn't really matter what Krillin says. His statement has wiggle room. Cell's does not.

Regardless, Krillin knows that Trunks' far superior power was of no use against Cell simply on the basis that he lost and the readers know the reason as well. Useless power is not being taken into account.

Even in that regard it doesn't really hold up because Cell was able to transform into that state as well during the fight, and his base power was evidently stronger than their SSJ Grade II forms. So if his transformation was essentially the same as SSJ Grade III, than Cell should possess even more power in the form than Trunks did.

Cell doesn't possess more power than Trunks did and even if he did, what would that prove?

Cell being capable of bulking up his muscles doesn't mean that he has the same multiplier as Grade 3. It's not even the same form, all that was shown is that he can increase his power through a similar method. He was still weaker than Gohan even after inflating his muscles to a far greater extent than he did against Trunks even though Gohan was less than 2x Cell.

[cheddarsword]

Disregarding what happens in Super, both because the powerscaling in that series is whack and because it's never stated whether Trunks reverted to SSJ or stayed in SSJ2 when going Grade 3, the power of characters at the Cell Games can be accurately gauged to a degree.

true, it's never stated but considering that grade 2 and grade 3 never showed any changes to super saiyan's standard aura, it can be assumed that they generally obey the same rules as the form they're based in. as such, if super saiyan 2 went grade 3, you would think that it's aura would still contain lightning, especialy since the only thing that DOESN'T increase when moving up in grade is speed, which actually decreases.

[Son_Gohan]

Cell doesn't possess more power than Trunks did and even if he did, what would that prove?

Cell being capable of bulking up his muscles doesn't mean that he has the same multiplier as Grade 3. It's not even the same form, all that was shown is that he can increase his power through a similar method. He was still weaker than Gohan even after inflating his muscles to a far greater extent than he did against Trunks even though Gohan was less than 2x Cell.

Why not? According to Cell it's the same transformation which he can do as well, and it's not like Perfect Cell's base power and their SSJ Grade II forms were even comparable to begin with. Cell should naturally be stronger than Trunks in that state since he had a higher base power; their power levels were not explicitly given for such speculative calculations to mean anything.

We know for a fact that Cell wasn't using his full power against Trunks as their subsequent statements in the story look to discover how strong he actually is; it was still seen as a mystery after that point.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Why not? According to Cell it's the same transformation which he can do as well, and it's not like Perfect Cell's base power and their SSJ Grade II forms were even comparable to begin with. Cell should naturally be stronger than Trunks in that state since he had a higher base power; their power levels were not explicitly given for such speculative calculations to mean anything.

We know for a fact that Cell wasn't using his full power against Trunks as their subsequent statements in the story look to discover how strong he actually is; it was still seen as a mystery after that point.

Even if Cell is stronger than Trunks in his Grade 3 equivalent, so what?

Cell didn't use his full power against Trunks. He had no reason to because Trunks was too slow to hit him. There was no need for Cell to power up regardless of Trunks being stronger than him. Again, I don't know where you're going with this.

[Son_Gohan]

Even if Cell is stronger than Trunks in his Grade 3 equivalent, so what?

Cell didn't use his full power against Trunks. He had no reason to because Trunks was too slow to hit him. There was no need for Cell to power up regardless of Trunks being stronger than him. Again, I don't know where you're going with this.

So... it means that FPSSJ Goku surpasses both SSJ Grade III Trunks & Cell's powers based on Krillin's statement who sensed all 3 and was simply judging on power alone.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Even if Cell is stronger than Trunks in his Grade 3 equivalent, so what?

Cell didn't use his full power against Trunks. He had no reason to because Trunks was too slow to hit him. There was no need for Cell to power up regardless of Trunks being stronger than him. Again, I don't know where you're going with this.

So... it means that FPSSJ Goku surpasses both SSJ Grade III Trunks & Cell's powers based on Krillin's statement who sensed all 3 and was simply judging on power alone.

No it doesn't. Cell stated that Trunks was stronger than him in Grade 3, so Trunks>Cell>Goku. Krillin's statement conforms to that, not whatever metric your making up. Useless power isn't being taken into account.
Krillin knows that the power is useless since it did nothing to Cell and the readers know why it's useless.

[Son_Gohan]

No it doesn't. Cell stated that Trunks was stronger than him in Grade 3, so Trunks>Cell>Goku. Krillin's statement conforms to that, not whatever metric your making up. Useless power isn't being taken into account.
Krillin knows that the power is useless since it did nothing to Cell and the readers know why it's useless.

And Burter was stated to be the "fastest in the universe", Goku stated that he could not defeat Fat Buu... we don't usually hold earlier statements with more weight than ones that come later and would contradict them. Krillin's statement is simply based on the "power" that he sensed; the qualifier of being "useless" is of your making and is not evident on its own.

[TheUltimateNinja]

No it doesn't. Cell stated that Trunks was stronger than him in Grade 3, so Trunks>Cell>Goku. Krillin's statement conforms to that, not whatever metric your making up. Useless power isn't being taken into account.
Krillin knows that the power is useless since it did nothing to Cell and the readers know why it's useless.

And Burter was stated to be the "fastest in the universe", Goku stated that he could not defeat Fat Buu... we don't usually hold earlier statements with more weight than ones that come later and would contradict them. Krillin's statement is simply based on the "power" that he sensed; the qualifier of being "useless" is of your making and is not evident on its own.

There's also the fact that Trunks > Cell is utter nonsense because then Vegeta could have gone Grade 3 and easily blown Cell away himself while he was beam struggling with Gohan.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No it doesn't. Cell stated that Trunks was stronger than him in Grade 3, so Trunks>Cell>Goku. Krillin's statement conforms to that, not whatever metric your making up. Useless power isn't being taken into account.
Krillin knows that the power is useless since it did nothing to Cell and the readers know why it's useless.

And Burter was stated to be the "fastest in the universe", Goku stated that he could not defeat Fat Buu... we don't usually hold earlier statements with more weight than ones that come later and would contradict them. Krillin's statement is simply based on the "power" that he sensed; the qualifier of being "useless" is of your making and is not evident on its own.

No, Cell stated that Trunks was stronger than him and that's really all it boils down to. You don't get to cherrypick statements. You have to reconcile the fact that Trunks is stronger than Cell with Krillin's statement. Period. You don't have another option.

If you're claiming that Goku is stronger than Trunks in Grade 3, then it is by default wrong since Cell stated that Trunks surpassed him, yet Goku was much weaker than Cell.
At that point in the story, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power and no fighter recognizes inflating their muscles with ki as their true power, hence why Cell doesn't go Buff when he states that he will show Gohan his true power.

Krillin's statement applies to the current Z-fighters. At that point, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power, so Krillin's statement is logically correct even if it doesn't take into account Grade 3, interpretations aside.

Now both statements are true

-Trunks is stronger than Cell.
-Goku outstrips everyone.

[TheUltimateNinja]

No it doesn't. Cell stated that Trunks was stronger than him in Grade 3, so Trunks>Cell>Goku. Krillin's statement conforms to that, not whatever metric your making up. Useless power isn't being taken into account.
Krillin knows that the power is useless since it did nothing to Cell and the readers know why it's useless.

And Burter was stated to be the "fastest in the universe", Goku stated that he could not defeat Fat Buu... we don't usually hold earlier statements with more weight than ones that come later and would contradict them. Krillin's statement is simply based on the "power" that he sensed; the qualifier of being "useless" is of your making and is not evident on its own.

No, Cell stated that Trunks was stronger than him and that's really all it boils down to. You don't get to cherrypick statements. You have to reconcile the fact that Trunks is stronger than Cell with Krillin's statement. Period. You don't have another option.

If you're claiming that Goku is stronger than Trunks in Grade 3, then it is by default wrong since Cell stated that Trunks surpassed him, yet Goku was much weaker than Cell.
At that point in the story, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power and no fighter recognizes inflating their muscles with ki as their true power, hence why Cell doesn't go Buff when he states that he will show Gohan his true power.

Krillin's statement applies to the current Z-fighters. At that point, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power, so Krillin's statement is logically correct even if it doesn't take into account Grade 3, interpretations aside.

Now both statements are true

-Trunks is stronger than Cell.
-Goku outstrips everyone.

Except it was stated by both Karin and Goku that Cell still hadn't shown his true power and his power in his buff form already exceeded Trunks'.

Therefore Cell's True Power > SSJ Goku > Buff Cell > Grade 3 Trunks

Also, Cell telling Trunks he'd surpassed him holds about as much meaning as Cell telling Goku their powers are close. Goku is obviously nothing compared to Cell's full power, Cell was referring to his current level when he said that. In much the same way he was referring to his suppressed power when he was talking to Trunks.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

And Burter was stated to be the "fastest in the universe", Goku stated that he could not defeat Fat Buu... we don't usually hold earlier statements with more weight than ones that come later and would contradict them. Krillin's statement is simply based on the "power" that he sensed; the qualifier of being "useless" is of your making and is not evident on its own.

No, Cell stated that Trunks was stronger than him and that's really all it boils down to. You don't get to cherrypick statements. You have to reconcile the fact that Trunks is stronger than Cell with Krillin's statement. Period. You don't have another option.

If you're claiming that Goku is stronger than Trunks in Grade 3, then it is by default wrong since Cell stated that Trunks surpassed him, yet Goku was much weaker than Cell.
At that point in the story, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power and no fighter recognizes inflating their muscles with ki as their true power, hence why Cell doesn't go Buff when he states that he will show Gohan his true power.

Krillin's statement applies to the current Z-fighters. At that point, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power, so Krillin's statement is logically correct even if it doesn't take into account Grade 3, interpretations aside.

Now both statements are true

-Trunks is stronger than Cell.
-Goku outstrips everyone.

Except it was stated by both Karin and Goku that Cell still hadn't shown his true power and his power in his buff form already exceeded Trunks'.

Therefore Cell's True Power > SSJ Goku > Buff Cell > Grade 3 Trunks

Cell doesn't need to show his true power to admit inferiority to Trunks. Trunks is stronger than Cell as stated by Cell himself. Period. I have never seen this much denial for something this clear cut.
No, Cell didn't show his true power. All he did was inflate his muscles with ki. His true power is what he was stated to use against Gohan, not his Buff form.

[TheUltimateNinja]

No, Cell stated that Trunks was stronger than him and that's really all it boils down to. You don't get to cherrypick statements. You have to reconcile the fact that Trunks is stronger than Cell with Krillin's statement. Period. You don't have another option.

If you're claiming that Goku is stronger than Trunks in Grade 3, then it is by default wrong since Cell stated that Trunks surpassed him, yet Goku was much weaker than Cell.
At that point in the story, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power and no fighter recognizes inflating their muscles with ki as their true power, hence why Cell doesn't go Buff when he states that he will show Gohan his true power.

Krillin's statement applies to the current Z-fighters. At that point, Grade 3 is no longer part of Trunks' power, so Krillin's statement is logically correct even if it doesn't take into account Grade 3, interpretations aside.

Now both statements are true

-Trunks is stronger than Cell.
-Goku outstrips everyone.

Except it was stated by both Karin and Goku that Cell still hadn't shown his true power and his power in his buff form already exceeded Trunks'.

Therefore Cell's True Power > SSJ Goku > Buff Cell > Grade 3 Trunks

Cell doesn't need to show his true power to admit inferiority to Trunks. Trunks is stronger than Cell as stated by Cell himself. Period. I have never seen this much denial for something this clear cut.
No, Cell didn't show his true power. All he did was inflate his muscles with ki. His true power is what he was stated to use against Gohan, not his Buff form.

Cell also told Goku this:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P14.4-5
Context: after Goku fights Cell at full power for a bit
Cell: “Excellent, Son Goku! This is it! Battles aren’t interesting unless [the fighters’] true power is close to a certain extent like this.”
Goku: “Yeah…I think so too.”

So does this mean Goku's close to being Cell's equal? Of course not. But according to you it's totally clear cut that Cell and Goku are on the same level, right?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Except it was stated by both Karin and Goku that Cell still hadn't shown his true power and his power in his buff form already exceeded Trunks'.

Therefore Cell's True Power > SSJ Goku > Buff Cell > Grade 3 Trunks

Cell doesn't need to show his true power to admit inferiority to Trunks. Trunks is stronger than Cell as stated by Cell himself. Period. I have never seen this much denial for something this clear cut.
No, Cell didn't show his true power. All he did was inflate his muscles with ki. His true power is what he was stated to use against Gohan, not his Buff form.

Cell also told Goku this:

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P14.4-5
Context: after Goku fights Cell at full power for a bit
Cell: “Excellent, Son Goku! This is it! Battles aren’t interesting unless [the fighters’] true power is close to a certain extent like this.”
Goku: “Yeah…I think so too.”

So does this mean Goku's close to being Cell's equal? Of course not. But according to you it's totally clear cut that Cell and Goku are on the same level, right?

Relatively speaking by Cells own subjective reasoning, they are close to a certain extent. Goku is strong enough to make him use the majority of his power.

Grade 3 Trunks>Cell is clearly stated by Cell. The opposite stance requires so many mental gymnastics that it's clear that bias is at play there.