Kai vs. Z Dub

[Valerius Dover]

I honestly don't have a problem with either line. Both of them are valid translations, really. They both get the point across while remaining in character

If we're talking the series overall, I find the writing in Kai to be somewhat better. It's hard to describe, but it feels more natural. The delivery especially. I still think the Z dub is as good as it could've been at the time, given what shape the scripts they received were in, and that Funi was a newbie company.

[thaman91]

The Vegeta example isn't clunky. An argument might be made that it's not as direct, but it's not clunky just reading it and I don't recall the delivery being bad either. When a lot of Kai detractors point to Kai's use of overly flowery dialog, they will point to Freeza's dialog. To them, I say that it's a nice bit of characterization and differentiates Freeza as someone who says 40 words when 4 would do because he's erudite and loves to hear himself speak.

Well when I said "clunky" I meant in comparison to the original dub line. I guess it's not really clunky by itself, but it feels clunky-er than its original dub counterpart.

What's your basis for saying "good is inherently subjective"?

Let's do a thought experiment. If good is in fact objective, than there should be objective criteria to define it. One of these criteria, I'm sure we would all agree, would be that the music should be appropriately placed in an objectively good work of entertainment. That sounds simple enough in theory, but the reality is that what's "appropriately placed" for you may not be the same for another individual. Maybe you think that the music should convey exactly what the characters are talking about on screen in order to enhance the tone that's created by the dialogue itself; that's both a logical and reasonable way to think. But maybe another person thinks that the music should somewhat contrast with what's on screen as an artistic choice in order to send a subconscious message to the audience...perhaps as foreshadowing. And maybe a third person thinks there shouldn't be any music at all because the dialogue is more powerful on its own or because the foreshadowing might be so obvious as to ruin a surprise. So who is right given that all 3 of them have utilized logic and reasoning to support their points?

Lastly, Goku's dialog does clash with the visuals. Of course the dub Goku will have Japanese Goku (i.e. the actual Goku) in him as the visuals and story dictate that regardless of whatever dialog the dub puts in his mouth. You are trying so hard to justify the change as creating some new experience instead of seeing it for what it is - the US producers trying to impose western ethics on a character who doesn't live by that code and never did. That compelling journey isn't even a journey on the dub's terms. It's purely a contradiction created by the dub writers.

To be clear, I understand the out-of-universe reasoning for why it is the way it is. No arguments there. But your assertion is that the "dialogue clashes with the characters and visuals" and that this is a contradiction. What I'm saying is that if you only look at the dub (in-dub-universe only), then there is nowhere in the show that Goku was firmly established as an unchangeable unshakeable superhero that never ever makes decisions based on the thrill of fighting. Basically, the "superhero" claim is something that we as fans throw around when we talk about the dub (eg, "Goku is too much like Superman in the dub...that's not how he's supposed to be in the original Japanese version"). If we look at the dub by itself, yes there are many moments where Goku talks and acts heroically. But there are also moments (even in "Season 3" & earlier), that dub-Goku admits to actually enjoying fighting and being in the position of having to face these kinds of strong enemies. So given all that, it's perfectly reasonable to interpret Goku's actions in-dub-universe as character development where these traits become more and more prominent as the show goes on. And again, I understand that this isn't the actual out-of-universe intention of the FUNi producers (I'm not trying to "justify" the change, as you say), but your insistence there there is an in-universe contradiction is simply not true.

[90sDBZ]

I understand why you like FUNi's dbz dub more than Kai. But something I dont get is why there is this mentality of being okay with an unfaithful dub. When I watch the Spanish Latin American dubs of The Lion King, Toy Story, Rocky, First Blood, etc I expect them to be as accurate as possible. Because that's the point of dubs(at least to me). Dubs should be accurate representations in your language. A very good Latin American dub actor, I cant remember his name, said that he sees dubs as simply very expensive translations. And to a certain degree, I agree. Dubs should be and are that. Why would you want an inaccurate adaptation of a movie, cartoon, anime, tv series etc? I'm not saying dubs should be full of cheap voice imitations with literal translated scripts. Of course dub actors can sound different than the original as long as they capture the character's personality. They can also add a little bit of their own style to the character but they shouldn't create a new one. The scripts also need to be adapted for a different aduiance. So jokes and idioms need to be adapted for that certain region. But in the end, a dub should be faithful to its source. Because when I watch Rocky dubbed in Spanish, I want to watch that movie not some cheap re-imagining with changed character personalities, changed musical score and unfaithful dialogue. I want to watch Rocky but simply in my native language. Before you say that I should just watch subs then, I don't need or want to watch subs when there are faithful adaptations available. And I hear this a lot, but wanting to enjoy a show dubbed as accurate as possible in your native language doesn't make you a purist.

Well look at it this way. If you've heard about an awesome new movie or show beforehand from people/word of mouth and want to experience the same thing that they're talking about, then seeing an accurate version would obviously matter to you. But if you just happen to stumble upon a show that you come to love, only to later discover that it deviates from the original version, why should you automatically stop liking it? I've personally watched all of Z, GT, and the movies in Japanese since I got hooked on the dub years ago, and while I did enjoy the original version and found a few aspects I preferred, I'd still take the Z dub over it in a heartbeat.

The actors were amateurs in Season 3 but improved considerably over the course of Z. I won't deny that the Japanese cast were the better actors at the time, but acting alone doesn't automatically make it the superior product, and neither does coming into existence first. From the perspective of an indifferent neutral individual with no preconceived ideas or knowledge of the series, stuff like script changes isn't going to bother them. All they care about is whether or not they enjoy what they see in front of them. If they take the time to watch both Kai and Z they can decide for themselves which is better instead of having someone else's preference forced upon them.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I've made my opinion on the matter clear. For a multitude of reasons, I vastly prefer the Kai dub to the Z dub. Anything that a dub is supposed to do, Kai does it better 9 out of 10 times.

[IAmTheMilkMan]

Both lines work just fine as written (as delivered by the actor, Kai wins by a mile). I don't see the Kai line as clunky at all, and the way Sabat delivers it is very natural and smooth. It also has more character and personality to it (Vegeta is a prince and the Kai line reflects that more so than the old dub).

Clearly, I prefer Kai's approach. That said, if the old dub line were delivered well, I would have no problem with it.

[ABED]

"dialogue clashes with the characters and visuals" and that this is a contradiction.

It's not a contradiction. The Z dub has characters say things that are contradicted by their actions. Goku's moralistic speechifying is undercut by things like letting the cyborgs be created. If he cared so much about saving the world and people's lives, he would've stopped Dr. Gero before he had a chance to finish the cyborgs. Freeza's dub personality doesn't match his mannerisms.

it's perfectly reasonable to interpret Goku's actions in-dub-universe as character development where these traits become more and more prominent as the show goes on.

But that's not the story and contradicted by those actions occurring for a while. It's not development as he was always that character. Toriyama created a character who was pure in his love of fighting. That is who his character is and it never change. He did save people but it wasn't central to who his character is. We are shown it time and time again and actions speak louder than words.

90sDBZ, changes made to a dub isn't the same as making changes to a story whole clothe. The animation was made to fit a certain script.

One of these criteria, I'm sure we would all agree,

Objectivity doesn't require agreement. Plenty of people have legitimately different views even on scientific matters. Reality is the final arbiter.

[jjgp1112]

In terms of acting and accuracy the Kai dub wins.

In terms of overall appeal for someone like me who isn't bothered about accuracy but simply cares about whether they enjoy what they're watching, it's gotta be the Z dub. I like the Z dub more largely for the Team Faulconer music, but I also prefer the dialogue in certain scenes like the Kaioken x20 scene, and Gohan's beam struggle with Cell. I'm also not particularly bothered by the corny dialogue, sometimes finding it funny and other times being indifferent to it.

The Kai dub is great if you're a purist and is also great as a standalone product. To be honest I think the whole plagiarism scandal really hurt it at times, with the Kikuchi placement being way too limited. The Yamamoto score was much better than the Kikuchi replacement in my opinion. Still I'm looking forward to finally seeing the Final Chapters with the new score.

Ultimately I'd recommend that anyone getting into the series take the time to watch both and draw their own conclusions, rather than telling them what they're supposed to like more.

...huh? I'm not really understanding what point you're trying to make here.

It seems like people like to categorize the Japanese/manga version of the show as just another version...and not the actual, original show in its original language. Now, people's preferences are one thing, but the argument you're making doesn't make sense. If accuracy weren't a factor in somebody's assessment, wouldn't you think they'd go with the show with superior acting and less cheesy dialogue tailored towards Saturday morning cartoons? It's not like a more accurate dub would be a dealbreaker to a casual fan, here. It makes a helluva lot more sense to just present the show as is.

[TheMikado]

"dialogue clashes with the characters and visuals" and that this is a contradiction.

It's not a contradiction. The Z dub has characters say things that are contradicted by their actions. Goku's moralistic speechifying is undercut by things like letting the cyborgs be created. If he cared so much about saving the world and people's lives, he would've stopped Dr. Gero before he had a chance to finish the cyborgs. Freeza's dub personality doesn't match his mannerisms.

it's perfectly reasonable to interpret Goku's actions in-dub-universe as character development where these traits become more and more prominent as the show goes on.

But that's not the story and contradicted by those actions occurring for a while. It's not development as he was always that character. Toriyama created a character who was pure in his love of fighting. That is who his character is and it never change. He did save people but it wasn't central to who his character is. We are shown it time and time again and actions speak louder than words.

90sDBZ, changes made to a dub isn't the same as making changes to a story whole clothe. The animation was made to fit a certain script.

One of these criteria, I'm sure we would all agree,

Objectivity doesn't require agreement. Plenty of people have legitimately different views even on scientific matters. Reality is the final arbiter.

I keep saying this but that android scenario is always taken out of context. Someone suggested they go take out Dr. Gero and IN THE MANGA Gokus first response is that Dr. Gero hasn't done anything, and besides that he does want to fight them. Goku is no hero nut he definitely has morals. Painting Goku as some amoral battle but is disingenuous to Toriyamas original vision and writing of the character.

[Bajosexto]

I understand why you like FUNi's dbz dub more than Kai. But something I dont get is why there is this mentality of being okay with an unfaithful dub. When I watch the Spanish Latin American dubs of The Lion King, Toy Story, Rocky, First Blood, etc I expect them to be as accurate as possible. Because that's the point of dubs(at least to me). Dubs should be accurate representations in your language. A very good Latin American dub actor, I cant remember his name, said that he sees dubs as simply very expensive translations. And to a certain degree, I agree. Dubs should be and are that. Why would you want an inaccurate adaptation of a movie, cartoon, anime, tv series etc? I'm not saying dubs should be full of cheap voice imitations with literal translated scripts. Of course dub actors can sound different than the original as long as they capture the character's personality. They can also add a little bit of their own style to the character but they shouldn't create a new one. The scripts also need to be adapted for a different aduiance. So jokes and idioms need to be adapted for that certain region. But in the end, a dub should be faithful to its source. Because when I watch Rocky dubbed in Spanish, I want to watch that movie not some cheap re-imagining with changed character personalities, changed musical score and unfaithful dialogue. I want to watch Rocky but simply in my native language. Before you say that I should just watch subs then, I don't need or want to watch subs when there are faithful adaptations available. And I hear this a lot, but wanting to enjoy a show dubbed as accurate as possible in your native language doesn't make you a purist.

Well look at it this way. If you've heard about an awesome new movie or show beforehand from people/word of mouth and want to experience the same thing that they're talking about, then seeing an accurate version would obviously matter to you. But if you just happen to stumble upon a show that you come to love, only to later discover that it deviates from the original version, why should you automatically stop liking it? I've personally watched all of Z, GT, and the movies in Japanese since I got hooked on the dub years ago, and while I did enjoy the original version and found a few aspects I preferred, I'd still take the Z dub over it in a heartbeat.

The actors were amateurs in Season 3 but improved considerably over the course of Z. I won't deny that the Japanese cast were the better actors at the time, but acting alone doesn't automatically make it the superior product, and neither does coming into existence first. From the perspective of an indifferent neutral individual with no preconceived ideas or knowledge of the series, stuff like script changes isn't going to bother them. All they care about is whether or not they enjoy what they see in front of them. If they take the time to watch both Kai and Z they can decide for themselves which is better instead of having someone else's preference forced upon them.

There's no reason stop liking a dub once you realise that it deviates from the original. I love the Latin American dub of Ranma 1/2 even though it does have script changes, translation erros, and censorship. And while I do plan to watch it in Japanese eventually(when I buy the Blu-rays), it's never going to be the same experience. That dub is what I grew up with. If I could only watch one version of Ranma 1/2, like you I would also choose the dub I grew up with in a heartbeat. That I do get. We grew up with these dubs, some great, others not so great. And those are the versions we love. But that said, I think being faithful to it's source is very important. Not just in Dragon Ball but in all dubs. When I started watching Naruto in LatAm Spanish, I wasn't thinking if it was accurate to the Japanese version or not. But thats my point. You shouldn't be thinking wether a dub is faithful or not because a dub should be faithful. That's the point of dubs. They exist to be able to watch a foreign show/movie in your native language. But they shouldn't be completely different shows/movies compared to the original versions.

[ABED]

Goku is no hero nut he definitely has morals. Painting Goku as some amoral battle but is disingenuous to Toriyamas original vision and writing of the character.

He always had ethics, but at best "he hasn't done anything" is a reach. His fundamental reason for doing what he did was to have a fight. He didn't need to hurt Dr. Gero to stop him if that was his goal.

[thaman91]

"dialogue clashes with the characters and visuals" and that this is a contradiction.

It's not a contradiction. The Z dub has characters say things that are contradicted by their actions. Goku's moralistic speechifying is undercut by things like letting the cyborgs be created. If he cared so much about saving the world and people's lives, he would've stopped Dr. Gero before he had a chance to finish the cyborgs. Freeza's dub personality doesn't match his mannerisms.

As I've already said, those are not contradictions. They're simply new information we are being given about the character, hints of which were already dropped prior to that.

And what do you mean by "Freeza's dub personality doesn't match his mannerisms"? What mannerisms? His physical mannerisms? Like standing? Smiling? Shooting ki blasts? What about the dub personality doesn't fit with those mannerisms? Unless you mean the speech mannerisms of the original Japanese versions.....but then that argument doesn't work because you were trying to claim that the dub has contradictions within its own dub-universe.

it's perfectly reasonable to interpret Goku's actions in-dub-universe as character development where these traits become more and more prominent as the show goes on.

But that's not the story and contradicted by those actions occurring for a while. It's not development as he was always that character. Toriyama created a character who was pure in his love of fighting. That is who his character is and it never change. He did save people but it wasn't central to who his character is. We are shown it time and time again and actions speak louder than words.

This is (once again) turning back into the circular "but that's not how the Japanese version is". What you described is the character Toriyama created and the one in the original anime. What I described is the character that materialized in FUNi's reversioning of the show. There's plenty in the dub to explain Goku's dub personality and how it changes.

One of these criteria, I'm sure we would all agree,

Objectivity doesn't require agreement. Plenty of people have legitimately different views even on scientific matters. Reality is the final arbiter.

The science comparison is not a good one. Science deals with reality and explaining why things are the way they are. "Good" is just an arbitrary term created by humans; it's not some kind of phenomenon that you can just run the scientific method on. Science requires very strict and precise means of measurement. What precise ways do you actually have to define "good"?

[ABED]

As I've already said, those are not contradictions. They're simply new information we are being given about the character, hints of which were already dropped prior to that.

And what do you mean by "Freeza's dub personality doesn't match his mannerisms"? What mannerisms? His physical mannerisms? Like standing? Smiling? Shooting ki blasts? What about the dub personality doesn't fit with those mannerisms? Unless you mean the speech mannerisms of the original Japanese versions.....but then that argument doesn't work because you were trying to claim that the dub has contradictions within its own dub-universe.

What new information are you talking about?

I'm referring to Freeza's uppercrust gentlemanly mannerisms.

There's plenty in the dub to explain Goku's dub personality and how it changes.

There isn't because that was always there. Goku's actions don't change. He's always the same character.

"Good" is just an arbitrary term created by humans; it's not some kind of phenomenon that you can just run the scientific method on.

It's not an arbitrary term. Are you a moral relativist?

[TheMikado]

Goku is no hero nut he definitely has morals. Painting Goku as some amoral battle but is disingenuous to Toriyamas original vision and writing of the character.

He always had ethics, but at best "he hasn't done anything" is a reach. His fundamental reason for doing what he did was to have a fight. He didn't need to hurt Dr. Gero to stop him if that was his goal.

But Goku didn't have a goal, he's not a hero. He was literally just responded to his friends saying. They wanted to take out Gero and he gave his specific imput on that. Why was the responsibility ever Gokus to preemptively stop? He shouldn't even be alive.

[ABED]

Goku is no hero nut he definitely has morals. Painting Goku as some amoral battle but is disingenuous to Toriyamas original vision and writing of the character.

He always had ethics, but at best "he hasn't done anything" is a reach. His fundamental reason for doing what he did was to have a fight. He didn't need to hurt Dr. Gero to stop him if that was his goal.

But Goku didn't have a goal, he's not a hero. He was literally just responded to his friends saying. They wanted to take out Gero and he gave his specific imput on that. Why was the responsibility ever Gokus to preemptively stop? He shouldn't even be alive.

He absolutely had a goal - to fight the cyborgs.

[ekrolo2]

"dialogue clashes with the characters and visuals" and that this is a contradiction.

It's not a contradiction. The Z dub has characters say things that are contradicted by their actions. Goku's moralistic speechifying is undercut by things like letting the cyborgs be created. If he cared so much about saving the world and people's lives, he would've stopped Dr. Gero before he had a chance to finish the cyborgs.

This really brings up a point that should warrant its own discussion: how do people not notice that moralizing Goku makes a lot of his later choices throughout the series considerably worse? I mean, Goku does do selfish things later on but at least he's honest about it. 90s dub Goku acts like default Goku but the way he sees things doesn't jive with those actions.

[Metalwario64]

I feel like people should understand that it's okay to like things that are "bad". Like what you want, but I think it's kind of silly to pretend that FUNimation's Z dub has better acting than their Kai dub. I still watch the Z dub, with the Faulconer score from time to time (as well as the old Ocean-cast dub), because it brings back good feelings, and the early stuff is always good for a laugh. Just because I grew up with it doesn't make it "good", but it doesn't matter because I enjoy it (albeit in a specific and limited sense). Of course, I do prefer Kai's dub by a vast margin, and I can see that it's a much superior product, and I watch it way more often than Z's old dub (which is just a thing I do to scratch my nostalgic itch from time to time).

[ABED]

I feel like people should understand that it's okay to like things that are "bad". Like what you want, but I think it's kind of silly to pretend that FUNimation's Z dub has better acting than their Kai dub. I still watch the Z dub, with the Faulconer score from time to time (as well as the old Ocean-cast dub), because it brings back good feelings, and the early stuff is always good for a laugh. Just because I grew up with it doesn't make it "good", but it doesn't matter because I enjoy it (albeit in a specific and limited sense). Of course, I do prefer Kai's dub by a vast margin, and I can see that it's a much superior product, and I watch it way more often than Z's old dub (which is just a thing I do to scratch my nostalgic itch from time to time).

Exactly. I like Power Rangers in spite of it's bad writing, bad acting, and it's cheapness. I like Gossip Girl in spite of the ludicrousness of its stories. And even though the season 3 dub is terrible, I still have fond memories of those times.

[TheMikado]

He always had ethics, but at best "he hasn't done anything" is a reach. His fundamental reason for doing what he did was to have a fight. He didn't need to hurt Dr. Gero to stop him if that was his goal.

But Goku didn't have a goal, he's not a hero. He was literally just responded to his friends saying. They wanted to take out Gero and he gave his specific imput on that. Why was the responsibility ever Gokus to preemptively stop? He shouldn't even be alive.

He absolutely had a goal - to fight the cyborgs.

Huh what? That implies he would have let them loose himself if they didn't happen naturally. He's not Vegeta

[thaman91]

As I've already said, those are not contradictions. They're simply new information we are being given about the character, hints of which were already dropped prior to that.

And what do you mean by "Freeza's dub personality doesn't match his mannerisms"? What mannerisms? His physical mannerisms? Like standing? Smiling? Shooting ki blasts? What about the dub personality doesn't fit with those mannerisms? Unless you mean the speech mannerisms of the original Japanese versions.....but then that argument doesn't work because you were trying to claim that the dub has contradictions within its own dub-universe.

What new information are you talking about?

Well, when we start to see more and more about how a good fight makes him excited (especially in the Buu arc) and how it influences his actions to the point where he puts people's lives in danger, that's new information we're given about the character. And with this new information, we can perhaps think that this was always a part of Goku to begin with, or that it's become more prominent over the years. And before you respond about how Goku was always like that, I'm talking about dub Goku.

I'm referring to Freeza's uppercrust gentlemanly mannerisms.

So you're saying that dub Freeza's personality doesn't match the gentlemanly mannerisms of the original version's Freeza. Well okay then. But you haven't actually demonstrated a contradiction within the dub itself since those mannerisms don't exist in the dub to begin with.

There's plenty in the dub to explain Goku's dub personality and how it changes.

There isn't because that was always there. Goku's actions don't change. He's always the same character.

Original Goku from the original version is always the same character, perhaps. It's definitely more debatable in the dub version of the character. His lust for fighting is definitely more subtle in the dub, especially at the beginning. But enough of it is there such that some of his un-superhero moments still make sense within the dub universe.

[TheMikado]

You know I still don't see what's quantifiably different between the example quotes outside of the name calling and overall seeming less condescending tone. I'm just not understanding why that wording is actually measurable different.