Is it really hard to believe that Future Zamasu can go toe to toe with SSJ Blue?

[ekrolo2]

Zamasu got his ass kicked by SS2 Goku, Future Zamasu is on the same level of power. Doesn't take a rocket scientist with a set of degrees in gamma radiation to figure out shit is fucked when he's suddenly not getting turned into a mangled, immortal slab of meat and bones by one of Goku's Blue farts.

What says he isn't stronger than p.zamasu.

The fact Trunks can go to to toe with him and he's on par with Goku (which in itself is moronic all alone) until after episode 57 where both Trunks and Zamasu suddenly get knocked down to worthless fodder tier.

[Saiyan007]

The anime makes it quite clear that he's God level he even held back Trunks and Godku to let them be hit by Goku Black blast

[LowRyder2005]

Future zamasu=/present zamasu
Goku noticed the difference between the two when he fought f.zam that was obvious
Oh you mean the same ssj2 trunks that that blocked a blow from ssjr black traded blows with him and even kicked him into a building? Yeah nice try...
F.zamasu is blue level more or less the lower end of it.

They never once said in either the anime or the manga that there was a difference in power between the two nor does it even make any sense for a being several million years old to have grown multiple times over in a mere 17 years.

The same Trunks couldn't even sense God Ki so wasn't even at the level of Base Goku.

Saying Future Zamasu is Blue level is like saying Krillin is. He was stomped by Goku every single time they clashed to the point it was comic relief, overwhelmed by Trunks as a SSJ2, overwhelmed by Goku as a SSJ2 and I could count on one hand the amount of times he actually was able to hit anyone.

Black was Blue level. Zamasu wasn't even as strong as Base Black.

Agreed.
The issue here is that if one wanted to rely on every single feat you still get fumbling on an incoherent mess, so it's probably best to try to understand the authorial intent behind everything. Future Zamas is never made out to be that much different compared to Present Zamas, and it's not clear at all if we're supposed to believe he got thousands of times stronger, nor if he had the means to improve that much.

This is without resorting to in-universe justifications for Zamas' supposed feats, justifications which - albeit a tad silly - would still introduce the possibility that either Goku or Zamas were not fighting seriously 100% of time, or that Zamas was able to hold SSB Goku still because Goku had "lowered his guard" etc.

[pacz360]

Zamasu got his ass kicked by SS2 Goku, Future Zamasu is on the same level of power. Doesn't take a rocket scientist with a set of degrees in gamma radiation to figure out shit is fucked when he's suddenly not getting turned into a mangled, immortal slab of meat and bones by one of Goku's Blue farts.

What says he isn't stronger than p.zamasu.

The fact Trunks can go to to toe with him and he's on par with Goku (which in itself is moronic all alone) until after episode 57 where both Trunks and Zamasu suddenly get knocked down to worthless fodder tier.

You mean the same trunks that could block a blow from black in his rose form and even kick him to building where he couldn't jack shit to him says otherwise.

[pacz360]

Future zamasu=/present zamasu
Goku noticed the difference between the two when he fought f.zam that was obvious
Oh you mean the same ssj2 trunks that that blocked a blow from ssjr black traded blows with him and even kicked him into a building? Yeah nice try...
F.zamasu is blue level more or less the lower end of it.

They never once said in either the anime or the manga that there was a difference in power between the two nor does it even make any sense for a being several million years old to have grown multiple times over in a mere 17 years.

The same Trunks couldn't even sense God Ki so wasn't even at the level of Base Goku.





Black was Blue level. Zamasu wasn't even as strong as Base Black.

Krillin is a poor example so don't so don't even try that shit f.zam was able to trade blows with ssjb goku And goku straight up said theres something different while flashbacking when he fought p.zam as a ssj2
And android 17 says hi
Golden frieza says hi.
Don't even try for it odoesn't make sense bs your trying to pull here
It doesnt make sense that some dude made three androids that can shit on the ssj's and frieza without knowing what the form was or who frieza is...yet it happened.
And the only times he was treated like straight up garbage was by an enraged ssjb goku.
Show me more proofs of your bs.

[pacz360]

Also using krillin as an example is straight ridiclious,horrible example.
Goku was holding back as plain as day fucking 18 knew krillin stood no chance against goku in blue not to mention
One with f.zam was him fighting seriously and with krillin he was testing him.
Try again.

[ekrolo2]

What says he isn't stronger than p.zamasu.

The fact Trunks can go to to toe with him and he's on par with Goku (which in itself is moronic all alone) until after episode 57 where both Trunks and Zamasu suddenly get knocked down to worthless fodder tier.

You mean the same trunks that could block a blow from black in his rose form and even kick him to building where he couldn't jack shit to him says otherwise.

Yes, and then he gets a fuckton more powerful SS form later on and he isn't performing any better against Black at all. If Episode 57 mattered (which it doesn't because Super loathes continuity with the fiery passion of a thousand exploding suns) Trunks would've been able to snap Black's neck when he got Rage and would've become the de facto strongest character besides fusions. Instead, Trunks is randomly powered down from being on par with Goku, Vegeta, Black just to get powered back up for no discernable reason.

[pacz360]

The fact Trunks can go to to toe with him and he's on par with Goku (which in itself is moronic all alone) until after episode 57 where both Trunks and Zamasu suddenly get knocked down to worthless fodder tier.

You mean the same trunks that could block a blow from black in his rose form and even kick him to building where he couldn't jack shit to him says otherwise.

Yes, and then he gets a fuckton more powerful SS form later on and he isn't performing any better against Black at all. If Episode 57 mattered (which it doesn't because Super loathes continuity with the fiery passion of a thousand exploding suns) Trunks would've been able to snap Black's neck when he got Rage and would've become the de facto strongest character besides fusions. Instead, Trunks is randomly powered down from being on par with Goku, Vegeta, Black just to get powered back up for no discernable reason.

Not like black didn't stronger either especially with the zenkais he's gotten in the saga.

[ekrolo2]

You mean the same trunks that could block a blow from black in his rose form and even kick him to building where he couldn't jack shit to him says otherwise.

Yes, and then he gets a fuckton more powerful SS form later on and he isn't performing any better against Black at all. If Episode 57 mattered (which it doesn't because Super loathes continuity with the fiery passion of a thousand exploding suns) Trunks would've been able to snap Black's neck when he got Rage and would've become the de facto strongest character besides fusions. Instead, Trunks is randomly powered down from being on par with Goku, Vegeta, Black just to get powered back up for no discernable reason.

Not like black didn't stronger either especially with the zenkais he's gotten in the saga.

Zenkai's don't happen in the anime, he gets stronger from fighting people and unless you're going to tell me Black & Goku get hundreds of times stronger after Goku's rage out happens, it doesn't make sense.

Plus, Black was kicking the shit out of Trunks even before Goku's rage gave him a power boost and he hadn't fought anyone up until then to power himself up. Once again, the scaling is totally arse.

[pacz360]

Yes, and then he gets a fuckton more powerful SS form later on and he isn't performing any better against Black at all. If Episode 57 mattered (which it doesn't because Super loathes continuity with the fiery passion of a thousand exploding suns) Trunks would've been able to snap Black's neck when he got Rage and would've become the de facto strongest character besides fusions. Instead, Trunks is randomly powered down from being on par with Goku, Vegeta, Black just to get powered back up for no discernable reason.

Not like black didn't stronger either especially with the zenkais he's gotten in the saga.

Zenkai's don't happen in the anime, he gets stronger from fighting people and unless you're going to tell me Black & Goku get hundreds of times stronger after Goku's rage out happens, it doesn't make sense.

Plus, Black was kicking the shit out of Trunks even before Goku's rage gave him a power boost and he hadn't fought anyone up until then to power himself up. Once again, the scaling is totally arse.

When did zenkais didn't happen?
Anyway doesn't change the fact f.zamasu is around that level and using trunks downplay him where in the same episode he blocked a blow from ssjr black is stupid .
F.zam was involves in several combination attacks with black in the anime says he's in that tier of power.

[ekrolo2]

Not like black didn't stronger either especially with the zenkais he's gotten in the saga.

Zenkai's don't happen in the anime, he gets stronger from fighting people and unless you're going to tell me Black & Goku get hundreds of times stronger after Goku's rage out happens, it doesn't make sense.

Plus, Black was kicking the shit out of Trunks even before Goku's rage gave him a power boost and he hadn't fought anyone up until then to power himself up. Once again, the scaling is totally arse.

When did zenkais didn't happen?
Anyway doesn't change the fact f.zamasu is around that level and using trunks downplay him where in the same episode he blocked a blow from ssjr black is stupid .
F.zam was involves in several combination attacks with black in the anime says he's in that tier of power.

They never happen. Black never powers up because someone beats him towards an inch of his life but rather through strong opponents. Many times in the anime he explicitly says that he gets stronger based on who his opponent is with Goku giving him the best gains because he's kind of fighting himself and getting more used to Goku's power.

And you're just ignoring my points now. In 57, everyone fighting is roughly on par with one another then Trunks and F. Zamasu are worthless fodder shit tier because reasons. If Trunks was really comparable to Goku, Black and Vegeta, Rage should've allowed him to finger flick Black into oblivion which doesn't happen, why? Because they arbitrarily power him down.

[pacz360]

Zenkai's don't happen in the anime, he gets stronger from fighting people and unless you're going to tell me Black & Goku get hundreds of times stronger after Goku's rage out happens, it doesn't make sense.

Plus, Black was kicking the shit out of Trunks even before Goku's rage gave him a power boost and he hadn't fought anyone up until then to power himself up. Once again, the scaling is totally arse.

When did zenkais didn't happen?
Anyway doesn't change the fact f.zamasu is around that level and using trunks downplay him where in the same episode he blocked a blow from ssjr black is stupid .
F.zam was involves in several combination attacks with black in the anime says he's in that tier of power.

They never happen. Black never powers up because someone beats him towards an inch of his life but rather through strong opponents. Many times in the anime he explicitly says that he gets stronger based on who his opponent is with Goku giving him the best gains because he's kind of fighting himself and getting more used to Goku's power.

And you're just ignoring my points now. In 57, everyone fighting is roughly on par with one another then Trunks and F. Zamasu are worthless fodder shit tier because reasons. If Trunks was really comparable to Goku, Black and Vegeta, Rage should've allowed him to finger flick Black into oblivion which doesn't happen, why? Because they arbitrarily power him down.

His rage form allowed him to put black briefly outta of commission while goku enraged in ssjb couldn't do it and vegeta before going into the rosat got spanked and was treated like a warm up
Show me instances where f.zam was treated like worthless fodder besides trunks (who again blocked and kicked ssjrose black into building and an enraged ssjb goku who treated black like shit for a moment.
F.zamasu is blue level nothing you can say will change it.

[ekrolo2]

When did zenkais didn't happen?
Anyway doesn't change the fact f.zamasu is around that level and using trunks downplay him where in the same episode he blocked a blow from ssjr black is stupid .
F.zam was involves in several combination attacks with black in the anime says he's in that tier of power.

They never happen. Black never powers up because someone beats him towards an inch of his life but rather through strong opponents. Many times in the anime he explicitly says that he gets stronger based on who his opponent is with Goku giving him the best gains because he's kind of fighting himself and getting more used to Goku's power.

And you're just ignoring my points now. In 57, everyone fighting is roughly on par with one another then Trunks and F. Zamasu are worthless fodder shit tier because reasons. If Trunks was really comparable to Goku, Black and Vegeta, Rage should've allowed him to finger flick Black into oblivion which doesn't happen, why? Because they arbitrarily power him down.

His rage form allowed him to put black briefly outta of commission while goku enraged in ssjb couldn't do it and vegeta before going into the rosat got spanked and was treated like a warm up
Show me instances where f.zam was treated like worthless fodder besides trunks (who again blocked and kicked ssjrose black into building and an enraged ssjb goku who treated black like shit for a moment.
F.zamasu is blue level nothing you can say will change it.

The fact Goku casually smacks him around in the following episodes and Trunks has no problems doing the same with Rage is proof enough that Trunks and Zamasu both got nerfed.

[Lord Frieza]

So waht people would have me think is this...

A prodigy among kaioshin, a race who's weakest known member who has never been shown or stated to train in anyway and is still powerful enough to one shot Frieza on namek, cannot, after 17 years have passed and being influenced by his other self from the another time, have grown any stronger at all? Thats what you would have me think?

You would have me think that it is impossible for such a character to have grown stronger after doing normal training, NO BS powerup from going to random islands like Krillin or #17, we are talking good old fashioned training over years and Black potential influence.

Your telling me that the very thing people have bitched about nonstop for nearly three strait weeks, the idea that characters should have natural progression or at least hint of it, some how dose not apply to Zamaus?

Because thats what it sounds like.

[pacz360]

They never happen. Black never powers up because someone beats him towards an inch of his life but rather through strong opponents. Many times in the anime he explicitly says that he gets stronger based on who his opponent is with Goku giving him the best gains because he's kind of fighting himself and getting more used to Goku's power.

And you're just ignoring my points now. In 57, everyone fighting is roughly on par with one another then Trunks and F. Zamasu are worthless fodder shit tier because reasons. If Trunks was really comparable to Goku, Black and Vegeta, Rage should've allowed him to finger flick Black into oblivion which doesn't happen, why? Because they arbitrarily power him down.

His rage form allowed him to put black briefly outta of commission while goku enraged in ssjb couldn't do it and vegeta before going into the rosat got spanked and was treated like a warm up
Show me instances where f.zam was treated like worthless fodder besides trunks (who again blocked and kicked ssjrose black into building and an enraged ssjb goku who treated black like shit for a moment.
F.zamasu is blue level nothing you can say will change it.

The fact Goku casually smacks him around in the following episodes and Trunks has no problems doing the same with Rage is proof enough that Trunks and Zamasu both got nerfed.

No he didn't goku only treated him again like garbage when he's was enraged and what instances did trunks in his rage form treated f.zamasu like garbage?
Future zamasu was involved in several combination attacks one in which knocked out both trunks and vegeta before going to goku.
He didn't get nerfed at all.

[pacz360]

So waht people would have me think is this...

A prodigy among kaioshin, a race who's weakest known member who has never been shown or stated to train in anyway and is still powerful enough to one shot Frieza on namek, cannot, after 17 years have passed and being influenced by his other self from the another time, have grown any stronger at all? Thats what you would have me think?

You would have me think that it is impossible for such a character to have grown stronger after doing normal training, NO BS powerup from going to random islands like Krillin or #17, we are talking good old fashioned training over years and Black potential influence.

Your telling me that the very thing people have bitched about nonstop for nearly three strait weeks, the idea that characters should have natural progression or at least hint of it, some how dose not apply to Zamaus?

Because thats what it sounds like.

What do you expect dude this fanbase is never consistent with its bullshit whatsoever.

[ChaosLordBrandon]

So waht people would have me think is this...

A prodigy among kaioshin, a race who's weakest known member who has never been shown or stated to train in anyway and is still powerful enough to one shot Frieza on namek, cannot, after 17 years have passed and being influenced by his other self from the another time, have grown any stronger at all? Thats what you would have me think?

You would have me think that it is impossible for such a character to have grown stronger after doing normal training, NO BS powerup from going to random islands like Krillin or #17, we are talking good old fashioned training over years and Black potential influence.

Your telling me that the very thing people have bitched about nonstop for nearly three strait weeks, the idea that characters should have natural progression or at least hint of it, some how dose not apply to Zamaus?

Because thats what it sounds like.

Funny thing that Kaioshin Shin,who is the weakest member should be just under SSJ2 level considering his statement at how he and the other Kaioshins would have defeated Freeza.

And he never train or stated to have been in a fight before besides with Buu.

And Goku got over 40 times powerful in the Freeza saga in like a day LMAO.

Yet Zamasu is not allowed to even be two times powerful over the span of 17 years.

[pacz360]

So waht people would have me think is this...

A prodigy among kaioshin, a race who's weakest known member who has never been shown or stated to train in anyway and is still powerful enough to one shot Frieza on namek, cannot, after 17 years have passed and being influenced by his other self from the another time, have grown any stronger at all? Thats what you would have me think?

You would have me think that it is impossible for such a character to have grown stronger after doing normal training, NO BS powerup from going to random islands like Krillin or #17, we are talking good old fashioned training over years and Black potential influence.

Your telling me that the very thing people have bitched about nonstop for nearly three strait weeks, the idea that characters should have natural progression or at least hint of it, some how dose not apply to Zamaus?

Because thats what it sounds like.

Funny thing that Kaioshin Shin,who is the weakest member should be just under SSJ2 level considering his statement at how he and the other Kaioshins would have defeated Freeza.

And he never train or stated to have been in a fight before besides with Buu.

And Goku got over 40 times powerful in the Freeza saga in like a day LMAO.

Yet Zamasu is not allowed to even be two times powerful over the span of 17 years.

As i said before this fanbase is never consistent with the very things it bitches about.
Also to add a man in his basement created two androids that can shit on ssj's as if they were nothing despite having no knowledge of the form whatsoever.

[GodKaio-Ken]

The anime is awfully inconsistent, like, well, basically every single time power scaling is concerned. The manga, however, makes it clear he's weak sauce compared to the higher Gods. This is at the very least partly reflected in the anime as well, given how SS1/2 Trunks manhandles Zamas and how Goku thinks Trunks may have killed Zamas with a Final Flash. Also, do note that Zamas immediately references his immortality as what enabled him to survive that particular attack, which again sounds pretty strange if he's really that strong compared to Trunks.

All in all, I can't help but think that Zamas suddenly putting on a show with SSB Goku was merely TOEI needing to fill some screentime and that he was always meant to be SS2 tier (just like the present one).
Also, Zamas being God tier would bring forth some more questions which are never exactly explored: exactly how could Zamas suddenly go from being a mid-Buu saga tier to a God tier? Some people talk about those 17 years being a great deal, but 17 years are like less than a day in a Kaioshin's life. I guess training with Goku Black, maybe?

I never got the impression Future Zamasu was very strong in the anime. When I watched I basically had it as:

1) Black
2A) Goku
2B) Vegeta
3) Future Trunks = Future Zamasu

Goku and Vegeta flip flop through the arc so they are basically the same.

I think it's bad to take every scene in the anime too literally. Some of it is just filling screen time as you said...but I feel like if you take the entire body of work in the arc this is plausible.

[Yedis]

Funny thing that Kaioshin Shin,who is the weakest member should be just under SSJ2 level considering his statement at how he and the other Kaioshins would have defeated Freeza.

And he never train or stated to have been in a fight before besides with Buu.

And Goku got over 40 times powerful in the Freeza saga in like a day LMAO.

Yet Zamasu is not allowed to even be two times powerful over the span of 17 years.

Remember only our 3 favorite Saiyans are special, everyone else remains the same