Explain why you dislike retcons and want everything be unchangeably set on stone

[Jinzoningen MULE]

How does DBM invalidate Dragon Ball on a whole?

I was only talking about the Bardock TV Special.

[Gog]

How does DBM invalidate Dragon Ball on a whole?

I was only talking about the Bardock TV Special.

`
Should have been more specific then.

[Bansho64]

Retcons are absolutely fine as long as they come naturally, the easiest example being when Goku turns out to be an alien. What doesn't work are things like Beerus being the one who ordered the destruction of the Saiyans, which irreparably devalues something important that came before it. Or DBM, which invalidates a beloved, already-existing, and superior narrative.

Agreed. Retcons in general can be done right, but really bad ones like the one listed above are what really makes me negative towards em. Another one I dislike a lot is the potara earring retcon.

I was only talking about the Bardock TV Special.

Should have been more specific then.

Not really. DBM in itself refers to Bardock story, so that "superior narrative" is most likely gonna refer to the other version of that story; the anime special. He didn't say a thing about "Dragon Ball as a whole".

[Zephyr]

I think there's a difference between retconning a work while it is still on-going, and retconning a work via a sequel after is has ended.

In the former case, the work itself is inconsistent, and thus doesn't even completely hold together on its own. In the latter case, the original work can sill stand on its own with its own complete, consistent, and isolated continuity. Later works may change things, for better or worse, without harming the original story.

I think a big reason that a lot of people dislike retcons is that it forces you to alter things when you're trying to paint a more fleshed out and understood world, with consistent facts. If you're trying to keep track of things and make sense of it all, then changing how things work all the time can lead to a perpetual headache. I don't personally find it to be something worth losing sleep over, but I think it's understandable that a lot of others do.

So to frame it in the context of Dragon Ball, and particularly Super: Retcons in Dragon Ball (the original run) that retcon things previously established in Dragon Ball (the original run) could be reasonably seen as cause for frustration, if one is to try construct The Big Picture while the thing was in serialization. After the serialization is complete, any and all additions, addendums, factoids, trivia bits, and retcons exist external to the work itself, and thus have no direct internal bearing on the work itself. The work can still be consumed and assessed as it originally existed.

I guess Dragon Ball's inner most core would be the original WSJ run. That is the internal core in which all retcons have ultimately been rooted before subsequently builing off of one another. Which must be frustrating if there's still anyone concerned with trying to piece together a cohesive and consistent picture of Dragon Ball's world, who's been there since day 1, and is still keeping up with Super's anime, Super's manga, interviews, and guidebook trivia. In that sense, I can understand someone's gripes with Super's retconning of things. But then, to be fair, Super's far from the first offender in this department, so I also don't see how worth it it is to contnue to be concerned about it at this point.

The most annoyed one could get with Super, is over how inconsistent/retcon-happy it is with itself.

[Cipher]

I don't know, and it's never made sense to me in a series where part of the charm and thrill has always been its creator writing it from the seat of his pants.

There have been a few latter-day additions, some from Toriyama, some ancillary, that do seem to diminish elements of the original run ("Minus," Episode of Bardock), but surely it's fine to judge impact on the story on a case-by-case basis, rather than rejecting new in-universe details outright or for some reason focusing on pedantic detail changes rather than on the narrative implications the hold.

[ABED]

I don't know, and it's never made sense to me in a series where part of the charm and thrill has always been its creator writing it from the seat of his pants.

There have been a few latter-day additions, some from Toriyama, some ancillary, that do seem to diminish elements of the original run ("Minus," Episode of Bardock), but surely it's fine to judge impact on the story on a case-by-case basis, rather than rejecting new in-universe details outright or for some reason focusing on pedantic detail changes rather than on the narrative implications the hold.

Exactly, it's dependent on execution instead of some dogmatic rule that retcons are inherently wrong.

[ekrolo2]

Anyone who thinks retcons are inherently bad by default clearly should hate everything from Raditz onward concerning Goku.

Some would say that doesn't count because Toriyama never explicitly says what Goku is but that's precisely WHY the reveal doesn't come off as shoehorned in for the sake of itself. He never definitively explains Goku's past or biology and that's why he could make him an alien OR another beast like human and both can work just fine.

Hell, even if Toriyama clearly defined Goku's entire backstory THEN brought in the alien reveal, it can still work with good execution. Retcons are like anything in fiction, if you use them well, it'll work, if you go about it like an idiot IE fucking everyone involved with Dragon Ball right now, it obviously won't.

[ABED]

Hell, even if Toriyama clearly defined Goku's entire backstory THEN brought in the alien reveal, it can still work with good execution.

Wait, so if Toriyama defines his whole backstory and then contradicts it, it can still work?

[ekrolo2]

Hell, even if Toriyama clearly defined Goku's entire backstory THEN brought in the alien reveal, it can still work with good execution.

Wait, so if Toriyama defines his whole backstory and then contradicts it, it can still work?

Well, maybe not absolutely everything but if he defined like 90% then left 10% up in the air, you can squeeze in an alien reveal in that 10%

Like if he chronicled most of Goku's time growing up with Gohan but kept the "how the hell did this old man get this kid?!" part unexplored, you can make Gohan's discovery of Goku's pod happen later on in the story and make it work.