Gohan at the Cell Games

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Krillin1994
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by Krillin1994 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:14 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
Krillin1994 wrote:Yeah he does have a massive backseat for the majority of the arc, what would you have done to make it feel more natural?
Probably give him and Future Trunks an actual, meaningful conversation would be a good enough thing. Despite their history, FT and Gohan don't do anything but acknowledge it at best. Having just a chapter or two with the two of them hanging out and talking to one another to give us more insight into post-Namek Gohan would be more than an effective way to kill two birds with one stone.
Yeah that's one thing that bugs me big time, even more so when Future Trunks comes back in Super and mentions he forgot to thank Gohan..... he just never really interacted with him before.


I've always been conflicted with Goten as the guy looking up to Gohan, in a way it would've been cool if Kid Trunks was the one who idolised Gohan (found the saiyaman costume cool etc). We barely get any Gohan - Kid trunks interactions which felt like a wasted opportunity.

A bit annoying that they emphasised the Trunks-Mai relationship between timelines moreso than the Gohan-Trunks one.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:21 pm

Krillin1994 wrote:A bit annoying that they emphasised the Trunks-Mai relationship between timelines moreso than the Gohan-Trunks one.
Well, in Trunks' timeline, Gohan's little more than a Goku surrogate, so I can see why Trunks would be interested in Goku in the prime timeline. It's probably hard for an adult to look at 10-year-old as a mentor (in DBZ), too.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by Krillin1994 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:24 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
Krillin1994 wrote:A bit annoying that they emphasised the Trunks-Mai relationship between timelines moreso than the Gohan-Trunks one.
Well, in Trunks' timeline, Gohan's little more than a Goku surrogate, so I can see why Trunks would be interested in Goku in the prime timeline. It's probably hard for an adult to look at 10-year-old as a mentor, too.
I meant with Kid trunks and Gohan. Goku isn't about during the 7 year gap.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:27 pm

Gohan's still pre-pubescent after the Room of Spirit and Time.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:28 pm

Krillin1994 wrote:I meant with Kid trunks and Gohan. Goku isn't about during the 7 year gap.
They seem to get along well in Z. It's implied Gohan visits and plays with Trunks. I agree that's pretty much gone in Super.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by Krillin1994 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:29 pm

LuckyCat wrote:
Krillin1994 wrote:I meant with Kid trunks and Gohan. Goku isn't about during the 7 year gap.
They seem to get along well in Z. It's implied Gohan visits and plays with Trunks. I agree that's pretty much gone in Super.
Yeah but nowhere near to the degree that Future Trunks and Gohan's relationship was. I just thought it would be a nice parallel.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:31 pm

Even emphasizing Gohan's desire to be more helpful throughout the arc would've done a lot for his character.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:42 pm

Son_Gohan wrote:Many Chinese stories of legend have written about Buddhist/Daoist/Qigong practitioners isolating themselves from earthly experiences for prolonged periods of time for the purposes of spiritual cultivation. When their training is complete, they become more attuned to nature and exhibit the passive/yin qualities just as Gohan had. In Gohan's case, he had become extremely yin as a result, and was consciously suppressing his yang side/Saiyan nature. Considering that Dragonball itself is based on the Chinese story Journey to the West and employs the concepts of chi/qi/ki, I think it's likely Toriyama would be aware of these spiritual concepts and may have been the idea he was going for with Cell Games Gohan.
This is something that I wanted to put into words, but didn't know how exactly to tie it into the story. Far East teachings/disciplines are commonplace in Japan and most kids over there in that region of the world (I assume) are exposed to and grow up with those concepts as a base from very early on. DB/Z was created and intended almost exclusively for a Japanese audience back then, and what may be considered questionable by Western views, only comes naturally to those familiar with those concepts. In other words, they knew what the narrative was doing with Gohan, and didn't need a walk-through provided. Chi/ki force and the aura that surrounds us are just another day in the life over there, while it was a foreign concept to the West for the longest time, and still is to the oblivious many. Those concepts had no explanation throughout the series either.

Son Gohan was also to serve as a role model, for the younger audience watching/reading. The actions of a character can have an effect on young minds. Previously, Gohan had retaliated out of extreme cases of necessity against much stronger foes, and also because collecting the DB's on Namek was the end goal. During the Cell Games, not only was Gohan on equal footing with this new threat, but he was 1-up over on him in raw strength. Where's the necessity to fight/kill? There's nothing out of character about reading an opponent and attempting to work in another option with a level head. Gohan had just been exposed to Cell for the first time, and he shrugged off Cell's fighting ability while he watched his dad go all-out on him. Not to mention that Cell had just swatted him around a bit and sent him into a rock formation -- to which Gohan calmly shrugged off before changing the direction of the conflict. Cell hadn't killed anyone at that point. Verbal threats weren't enough to provoke Gohan, or dig into his deepest emotional core.

I view DB and the earlier arcs of Z as having training wheels provided, which served to acclimate the viewer/reader into understanding how that world functions and understanding how it affects characters that we literally watch grow up. Gohan is gentle, but has immeasurable potential--->only fights out of extreme necessity--->time passes by--->trains in complete isolation for an extended period, removing influences--->emerges much more powerful and disciplined, while maturing in all ways--->Enjoys and relaxes with family--->Meets Cell for the first time--->Cell doesn't impress--->Gohan attempts peaceful resolution, reaffirming his gentle nature.

The training wheels were off in this arc, imo. The viewer should know if they have been following along the way. Gohan was kept in the background for a reason. Forget about the one line-of-dialogue plastered on the screen. There's a message in this story. Apply your critical thinking skills if need be. Piece it together. It's natural for some. Have fun, and enjoy the story. I dare say, the deepest arc in all of the DB story... but not without some flaws (as was in previous arcs). Like a fine wine, gets better with age.

That would be a fun classroom discussion. :p
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by Krillin1994 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:51 pm

ABED wrote:Gohan's still pre-pubescent after the Room of Spirit and Time.
no he's 10 it doesn't state anywhere that he's still pre pubescent. plenty of kids start puberty around the age of 10.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:03 pm

Krillin1994 wrote:
ABED wrote:Gohan's still pre-pubescent after the Room of Spirit and Time.
no he's 10 it doesn't state anywhere that he's still pre pubescent. plenty of kids start puberty around the age of 10.
Regardless, puberty isn't the reason for the change. Toriyama didn't make that part of the story.

Super Divine Genkidama, no the training wheels haven't been taken off, you are reading what you want into the arc. Toriyama didn't suddenly become a more sophisticated writer. How is taking the concept of Ki for granted akin to a unexplained/unmotivated character development?
Where's the necessity to fight/kill?
Cell threatened to kill everyone. How is that not a threat? Gohan didn't shrug off Cell's fighting ability. After seeing Cell fight his father, all that was established is Gohan had no trouble following it. The hit into the mountain is hardly Cell at his best. The fight has just begun which doesn't mean Gohan is better than him. All it showed was Cell underestimating Gohan's power. This and other statements show you are making a lot of leaps. Cell is dangerous. Even when Gohan has him outclassed, he is still a danger.
Gohan was kept in the background for a reason.
What reason? So as to not telegraph him becoming the strongest?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by Krillin1994 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:24 pm

ABED wrote:
Krillin1994 wrote:
ABED wrote:Gohan's still pre-pubescent after the Room of Spirit and Time.
no he's 10 it doesn't state anywhere that he's still pre pubescent. plenty of kids start puberty around the age of 10.
Regardless, puberty isn't the reason for the change. Toriyama didn't make that part of the story.

Super Divine Genkidama, no the training wheels haven't been taken off, you are reading what you want into the arc. Toriyama didn't suddenly become a more sophisticated writer. How is taking the concept of Ki for granted akin to a unexplained/unmotivated character development?
Where's the necessity to fight/kill?
Cell threatened to kill everyone. How is that not a threat? Gohan didn't shrug off Cell's fighting ability. After seeing Cell fight his father, all that was established is Gohan had no trouble following it. The hit into the mountain is hardly Cell at his best. The fight has just begun which doesn't mean Gohan is better than him. All it showed was Cell underestimating Gohan's power. This and other statements show you are making a lot of leaps. Cell is dangerous. Even when Gohan has him outclassed, he is still a danger.
Gohan was kept in the background for a reason.
What reason? So as to not telegraph him becoming the strongest?
But Toriyama does seem to put emphasis on childish outburst of emotion, that's why he can't tap into anger power in the buu saga.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:48 pm

Agreed but that isn't the issue in the Cell Games.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by Super_Divine_Genki » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:56 pm

ABED wrote:you are reading what you want into the arc.
Yes. There are openings for interpretation. There are also visual clues littered throughout (Gohan's disposition/expression). While there may be interpretations that weigh positive, there's nothing that suggests going against Gohan's character anywhere. You're basically looking for one single line of dialogue (Ex. "I don't really want to fight", or similar, before the Cell Games) as confirmation when there doesn't need to be one.
Gohan didn't shrug off Cell's fighting ability. After seeing Cell fight his father, all that was established is Gohan had no trouble following it.
The scene when Goku and Cell decide to stop with the "warm ups" and proceed to go full power puts emphasis on various reaction shots. Everyone is freaking out about the unbelievable power. Gohan?... "Okay, whatever" expression.
Gohan was kept in the background for a reason.
What reason? So as to not telegraph him becoming the strongest?
Toriyama and Toei could answer those specifics. I'm sure that he would mention something about saving for 'reveal', which we could've guessed ourselves.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:09 pm

Yes. There are openings for interpretation. There are also visual clues littered throughout (Gohan's disposition/expression). While there may be interpretations that weigh positive, there's nothing that suggests going against Gohan's character anywhere. You're basically looking for one single line of dialogue (Ex. "I don't really want to fight", or similar, before the Cell Games) as confirmation when there doesn't need to be one.
Dialog is fine, but I don't need that. I need impetus for change. What expression are you referring to? I don't need to be hit over the head, so it's not that. There is not subtlety, there's nothing. Gohan already knew there are things worth fighting for prior to the fight. And everything goes against Gohan's character to that point. He doesn't have an issue fighting for his loved ones.

Cell was not going full power. Goku was, but not Cell. And Gohan wasn't "whatever", he's earnestly following the fight. If Gohan was SO unimpressed by Cell's supposed full power before going SS2, why would that necessitate the transformation?
Toriyama and Toei could answer those specifics. I'm sure that he would mention something about saving for 'reveal', which we could've guessed ourselves.
You were the one that brought it up. Why do you think he was put in the background for a large portion of the arc? There are other options than telegraphing a reveal/plot twist and not giving any context or reason for one
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by lancerman » Sat Jul 15, 2017 5:30 pm

It just felt like it undid Gohan's development for the sake of setting up drama before he turned the fight against Cell on it's head. It is in line with him not really caring about fighting in the Boo arc. However, by the Namekian arc, he had developed into a warrior who would not hesitate to battle a stronger foe. He was ready to stand and face Recoome even if it meant death, he took the fight to Freeza. All of a sudden he can't face Cell?

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:09 pm

lancerman wrote:All of a sudden he can't face Cell?
He did face Cell, it's just that he was overwhelmed by him as a SSJ. The problem was Gohan couldn't release his true power at will. That had always been the case until the Cell Games. The battle you mention with Recoome is a good example of him not using his full potential. Toei even uses that fight as an example of Gohan's weakness during the montage when he goes SSJ the first time.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:13 pm

He did face Cell, it's just that he was overwhelmed by him as a SSJ. The problem was Gohan couldn't release his true power at will. That had always been the case until the Cell Games.
That was certainly an issue but not the question before the court. The issue is whether Gohan would have an issue with fighting Cell so much that he would need 16's pep talk to realize it's okay to fight bad guys to protect those you care about.
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The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by LuckyCat » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:24 pm

Who said it needed to be Android 16? If Krillin was killed by a Cell Jr., surely Gohan could've gone SSJ2.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by Son_Gohan » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:36 pm

ABED wrote:Son_Gohan, your argument goes to the point that you are filling it in on your own. This isn't coming from the story.
after his training with Mr. Popo and developing his spirit, he didn't want to kill his enemies from that point on
That's not a fact, it's something fans inferred. Goku has often spared his enemies, especially if they are strong.
Seven years after the Cell Games, Gohan is shown to embrace his Saiyan side a bit more, as a fighter of justice, clarifying his pacifism to be merely a transitional phase.
Son in other words, his personality shifts based on the needs of the story.
I don't think Toriyama feels he has to spell out every little thing either.

With Goku's character in the Freeza arc for example, he left signs that Goku had developed spiritually as well. Even though it doesn't explicitly say that, we are able to interpret it for ourselves. Goku's merciful behavior in the arc ties in to Buddhist ideology, which can be lost on the Western reader because the story was originally intended for Japanese only.

Image
Image

Well Gohan's character has always been in a dynamic shift between his human nature and Saiyan nature of contrasting egos. At different times of the story one can become more dominant over the other, even instantaneously. Gohan is expressed to be a precocious child and his development in the RoSaT is meant to exemplify that. But to say his actions in the Cell Games were completely out-of-character, I don't think they were, it just manifested differently as a consequence of maturity. An individual is not expected to have the same mind at 11 years old as they had when they were 5. Gohan's pacifism in the Cell Games was an extreme expression of his human side, just as his enraged state is an extreme expression of his Saiyan side.

If you analyze Gohan's enraged moments throughout the story in more detail, you'll find that it does not remain constant either. When Raditz was on Earth, Gohan's rage was a phenomenon where he was completely unconscious of his own actions. A year later, he develops more control and awareness of himself and his tantrums are no longer unconscious, he is able to remember what he has done after snapping out of it. Jumping up to the Cell Games, Gohan's enraged state manifested through SSJ2, no longer acts as it did back in the Freeza arc, just charging loudly, recklessly, wanting to kill his opponent right away; he approaches Cell in a very cold, patient, and cruel manner. These changes in expression are to be expected as one develops mentally, while the root nature remains the same.

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Re: Gohan at the Cell Games

Post by ABED » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:55 pm

That wasn't character development with Goku on Namek, at least not a development of his personality. He was calm because he had gained a level of power he couldn't imagine.

Your whole point about Gohan losing his temper in battle are irrelevant to the question of whether Gohan is acting out of character in the Cell Games. He didn't develop in the room of spirit and time. That's the point. He came out and he's suddenly different with no reason for it. What reason was there for him to change? In the Saiyan arc, it's clear why he changes, he has to or he would die.
An individual is not expected to have the same mind at 11 years old as they had when they were 5. Gohan's pacifism in the Cell Games was an extreme expression of his human side, just as his enraged state is an extreme expression of his Saiyan side.
First, anger is all too human, so I find that argument specious and secondly, he did change when he was five, what you are saying is that he changed from the time he was 11 to when he turned 11. He inexplicably changed because time passed.
Who said it needed to be Android 16? If Krillin was killed by a Cell Jr., surely Gohan could've gone SSJ2.
That's a question for Toriyama. By writing 16's speech, he's saying Gohan needed to hear that message to access his power.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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