Kid Buu fight... Why so complicated?

[MR.Mark]

Well when I think fight I think punches,kicks and martial arts in general. When it's down to two people shoving a giant energy ball at each other I don't consider it a fight anymore. Hence why I don't see Vegeta or Goku getting much battle satisfaction on top of risking the universe just so they can kill a monster with a giant ki blast.

The choice to use the Genkidama was obviously out of desperation, which logicaly, if there desperate to save there lives and there loved ones, bringing Gohan in would of been the smart thing to do. But Toriyama couldn't think of a way of getting Gohan involved and still keep Goku front and center.

Personally I would of made pure Buu stronger and have Gohan keep him busy while both Goku and Vegeta make there own Genki Dama (Vegeta comes up with the idea revealing that he learned the technique).

Gohan beats Buu down, throwing the weakened Buu between Goku and Vegeta, who then throw the attack, hitting Buu from both sides. The two Genkidamas then merge into one huge one, and explode, taking Buu with it.

But then doing that would of gave the win to Goku, Gohan, AND Vegeta, and we can't have that.

[ABED]

Well when I think fight I think punches,kicks and martial arts in general. When it's down to two people shoving a giant energy ball at each other I don't consider it a fight anymore. Hence why I don't see Vegeta or Goku getting much battle satisfaction on top of risking the universe just so they can kill a monster with a giant ki blast.

The choice to use the Genkidama was obviously out of desperation, which logicaly, if there desperate to save there lives and there loved ones, bringing Gohan in would of been the smart thing to do. But Toriyama couldn't think of a way of getting Gohan involved and still keep Goku front and center.

Personally I would of made pure Buu stronger and have Gohan keep him busy while both Goku and Vegeta make there own Genki Dama (Vegeta comes up with the idea revealing that he learned the technique).

Gohan beats Buu down, throwing the weakened Buu between Goku and Vegeta, who then throw the attack, hitting Buu from both sides. The two Genkidamas then merge into one huge one, and explode, taking Buu with it.

Then your conception of fights isn't the same as the characters'. Ki blasts are just as much a part of fighting as a punch or a kick.

I am willing to concede that much of the drama is forced when he makes it seem like the Genki Dama is their last ditch effort, but it IS within their character to place a good fight above even the fate of the world.

[MR.Mark]

Well even if you consider struggling with a energy ball a good fight, Vegeta's very reason behind using it was for the earthlings to look out for themselves. So in other words the reason for using it was not about having a good fight at all, sooooo.

Visually, Goku beating Buu with it and the seeing the Genkidama succeed was still awesome, but story wise it just was an asspull, it looked looked cool and made Goku cool, that's it.

[ABED]

Well even if you consider struggling with a energy ball a good fight, Vegeta's very reason behind using it was for the earthlings to look out for themselves. So in other words the reason for using it was not about having a good fight at all, sooooo.

Visually, Goku beating Buu with it and the seeing the Genkidama succeed was still awesome, but story wise it just was an asspull, it looked looked cool and made Goku cool, that's it.

It's not antithetical. He can do several things at once. That Genki Dama was still part of them having the good fight and ending it.

Again with the asspull. It was sufficiently setup. Thematically Toriyama could've made Earthlings contributing a stronger theme throughout the arc, but using the actual attack was setup years prior. Goku didn't just say "I just remembered, I have this new attack that draws energy from everything and it's powerful enough to defeat Buu." We saw Goku use it before.

[MR.Mark]

I just remembered, I have this new attack that draws energy from everything and it's powerful enough to defeat Buu.

He may as well have, Vegeta just brought up the technique witch Goku hadn't used since the Freeza arc and for that matter, it never worked up to that point.

So how is it any less random?

[ABED]

I just remembered, I have this new attack that draws energy from everything and it's powerful enough to defeat Buu.

He may as well have, Vegeta just brought up the technique witch Goku hadn't used since the Freeza arc and for that matter, it never worked up to that point.

So how is it any less random?

It's not random because he used it before TWICE. That's not out of nowhere. That's the exact opposite. I get your point about the attack not finishing either off but in both cases there are excuses. The one used on Vegeta which he would have a crystal clear memory of, wasn't at full strength. And the one against Freeza was one that drew power from a planet that was almost completely devoid of life by that point. Yes, it's a risk, but in this case, they are drawing more energy from before.

[MR.Mark]

Yes I'm aware of WHY it worked, it had enough energy, obviously.

I'm talking about the logic of why it was used in the first place, which was to make Goku look good after Gohan didn't work out taking the lead role.

[ABED]

Yes I'm aware of WHY it worked, it had enough energy, obviously.

I'm talking about the logic of why it was used in the first place, which was to make Goku look good after Gohan didn't work out taking the lead role.

I get that but it's still in character. Goku wants to fight Kid Buu and win. He's a fighter out for a good fight, the same with Vegeta. I understand your point about Gohan not taking over as the lead, but I think Toriyama was right in keeping the story about Goku, and it was all within character. Goku and Vegeta have shown in the past that they are willing to put the fate of the world in the balance for the sake of a better fight. Whether you think they are dumb for thinking that doesn't matter.

[MR.Mark]

You seem dead set with thinking from a story perspective and getting in the character's heads. As much as I adore this series it's just popcorn entertainment. I still argue that the need to make Goku the lead overrides any logic toward the genkidama and kid buus defeat. Not every battle in the series revolves around the need for a good fight.

[ABED]

You seem dead set with thinking from a story perspective and getting in the character's heads. As much as I adore this series it's just popcorn entertainment. I still argue that the need to make Goku the lead overrides any logic toward the genkidama and kid buus defeat. Not every battle in the series revolves around the need for a good fight.

I'm not delving all that deep. That's surface level and it's also explicit.

Yeah, some revolve around revenge. Saving the world is a goal, but it's rarely if ever the main goal. I get what you are saying and appreciate your points. I do think the battle lacks logic, but the characters are acting in character, unlike Gohan at the Cell Games or Goku earlier in the arc when he pulled out Super Saiyan 3 after claiming that he was fighting Majin Vegeta at his full strength. Goku and Vegeta putting the universe in jeopardy is not out of character for them, so it has that going for it.

[ekrolo2]

As I said in another thread, it's really doubtful Gohan can't kill Kid Boo since he can beat up Super Boo easily whereas Goku outright refuses to fight Super Boo without some kind of fusion with Vegeta.

[MR.Mark]

Actually Goku and Vegeta simply not wishing Gohan to the planet to help deal with Buu is the same level of stupidity as Goku holding back SSJ3 from Vegeta and not using SSJ3 to defeat fat Buu.

It's one of many asspulls in the buu arc.

Goku claimed he wanted the next generation to beat Buu, which is why he was training the boys. Why didn't he have that attitude while they were fighting Kid Buu and get Gohan over there? It's because Toriyama changed his mind and as a result Goku and Vegeta don't act consistent and act stupid for plot convenience.

[ABED]

Actually Goku and Vegeta simply not wishing Gohan to the planet to help deal with Buu is the same level of stupidity as Goku holding back SSJ3 from Vegeta and not using SSJ3 to defeat fat Buu.

It's one of many asspulls in the buu arc.

Goku claimed he wanted the next generation to beat Buu, which is why he was training the boys. Why didn't he have that attitude while they were fighting Kid Buu and get Gohan over there? It's because Toriyama changed his mind and as a result Goku and Vegeta don't act consistent and act stupid for plot convenience.

Goku holding back was a retcon.

Yes, Toriyama changed his mind, thankfully, but that's not the only logical reason for not bringing over Gohan. It's logical to not bring over Gohan if YOU want to fight and defeat Buu.

As I said in another thread, it's really doubtful Gohan can't kill Kid Boo since he can beat up Super Boo easily whereas Goku outright refuses to fight Super Boo without some kind of fusion with Vegeta.

And yet giving most of his energy isn't enough for the Genki Dama. That's the wonky logic of the fight, not whether Goku and Vegeta are willing to put the universe on the line.

[MR.Mark]

It's logical to not bring over Gohan if YOU want to fight and defeat Buu.

Or if by YOU you mean everyone helping Goku launch a ki attack, yeah sure I guess. That sure was great Saiyan pride and a good fight right there.

How is Goku holding back being a retcon defend your argument in anyway?

And yet giving most of his energy isn't enough for the Genki Dama. That's the wonky logic of the fight, not whether Goku and Vegeta are willing to put the universe on the line.

That just means in order to completely decimate an enemy the ki in a Genkidama needs to be many MANY times stronger, I see no problem there. That at least has more logic than not getting Gohan over there to fight.

[ABED]

In one case, Goku is acting in character, the other he's not. The Buu arc has issues, but Goku putting the Earth at risk for the sake of a better fight isn't one of them. He's acting in character. I'd rather you not lump them together.

[MR.Mark]

Goku putting the Earth at risk for the sake of a better fight isn't one of them.

Except in this case Goku even had the idea of bringing Gohan in to fight, it was Vegeta that turned that down in favor of the Genkidama.

Sorry but this is a case of lazy/inconsistent writing so Goku can defeat Buu.

[ABED]

Goku putting the Earth at risk for the sake of a better fight isn't one of them.

Except in this case Goku even had the idea of bringing Gohan in to fight, it was Vegeta that turned that down in favor of the Genkidama.

Sorry but this is a case of lazy/inconsistent writing so Goku can defeat Buu.

Okay then, that could be lazy, but the Genki dama isn't an as... I can't write that. It's such a stupid term. Use the term deus ex machina. There are likely more organic ways to keep Gohan out of the fight, but Goku is the type that would resist bringing someone else in, so it's not out of character for him to resist getting help, but reluctantly accepting it. In this case, he was going to because he didn't see a better option until Vegeta presented it. He's done so plenty of times.

As for Gohan's power and the Genki Dama, you aren't completely wrong, but there is an argument to be made that you aren't correct. We don't know. I've heard both arguments and they are valid because Toriyama's power scaling is very vague in this arc. When Goku takes energy for the Genki Dama, he takes as much as he possibly can without killing people. If Gohan is nearly as strong as you say, then surely taking that much energy would be more than enough on its own. Even if not, then surely the rest of the Z Team's power should suffice without getting the rest of the world.

In case the point is being lost, I'll sum up my point: Goku and Vegeta aren't superheroes. They aren't out to save the universe in the quickest and most expedient manner. This is explicitly stated by them and backed up by their actions. You can call them stupid for being reckless that's one thing, but I use "stupid" in the context of characters using illogical means to achieve their ends, regardless of what that end is. I don't have to like their goals, but if they choose a logical means to achieve it, then it's not stupid. For instance, Goku putting the world at risk to win the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is reckless. However, it's not stupid. Fighting within the rules is a logical means of achieving his goal of winning the title.

[MR.Mark]

In this case, he was going to because he didn't see a better option until Vegeta presented it. He's done so plenty of times.

Only they were fighting for the sake of the universe, so not bringing Gohan in was not the better option, it was plot contrivance so Goku can win.

[ABED]

Only they were fighting for the sake of the universe, so not bringing Gohan in was not the better option, it was plot contrivance so Goku can win.

I noticed you cut out the rest of the comment which answers this.

[MR.Mark]

Only they were fighting for the sake of the universe, so not bringing Gohan in was not the better option, it was plot contrivance so Goku can win.

I noticed you cut out the rest of the comment which answers this.

Please state exactly what I left out that backs up your argument.