ryan s wrote:LowRyder2005 wrote:ryan s wrote:it is flat out stated by the narrator, that he is at the level of Gods and that vegeta was training to get there himself and that is months after the beerus battle and plus there were so many errors in your "explanation" that make no sense and contradict statements but we go to any lengths to protect a broken theory right?
these are not the statements i am referring to but they still apply
Minute: 23
Context: Beerus points out to Goku that he’s no longer Super Saiyan God
Beerus: “You’re out of time, aren’t you? After all, your Super Saiyan God aura has vanished! You’re a bit slow on the uptake.”
Goku: “Huh? When did that happen? But I don’t feel like I’ve gotten weaker at all! What’s going on, Beerus-sama?”
Beerus: “Don’t ask me!”
Goku: “But you’re a god, right?”
Beerus: “Well, it seems that the power of Super Saiyan God didn’t just vanish when time ran out. The power has fully merged with you and become your own. God’s crimson radiance still burns inside you like a flame.”
Minute: 5
Context: Vegeta stands out in the middle of nowhere, reflecting on Goku's fight with Beerus.
Vegeta: "He surpassed it. Super Saiyan God. The level of gods."
Significance: Both Vegeta and the narrator mention that Goku has "surpassed the level of (the) god(s)" (神の域を超えた/kami no iki wo koeta; literally "surpassed the realm of the gods")
here herms makes note of it so no it is not false
I don't need the quotes from any episode, as they do not really go against anything of which it's been said so far.
1. You don't know what happened to the Super Saiyan Goku weeks or months after the BOG arc; in fact, the same Super Saiyan Goku is shown as trading blows on equalish terms with a Super Saiyan Gohan who's inferior to Ultimate Gohan from Z.
2. Vegeta is just stated to have become massively stronger than his old self; he could have got the Super Saiyan God only after understanding God's ki or his visit in Whis' staff. Vegeta is also never stated to have become as strong as a Super Saiyan God.
3. In
later episodes, again, everyone makes a big deal of Goku's strength being god-like only when Blue. Combined with the weaker Super Saiyan Gohan's being portrayed as capable of trading blows with Goku -- which does nothing short of completely invalidating any "Goku is stronger than Buu arc's Super Saiyan Goku in base reasoning", #18's strength being quite apparently superior to Goku's, etc. they all make, again, your points about BOG clarifying anything completely moot.
1) the narrator establishes that he is still at the level of Gods months after the battle and Vegeta still states he has surpassed it months after the battle so what is your point? this can be shown because whis had visited the earth now and then as stated bulma so a huge amount of time has passed
2) so? Goku was as stronger than SSG in episode 18 yet Vegeta having no God ki was stronger than him
3) this literally has no point to it so what? if Goku's base was SSG and he can get 400 x stronger than it blue still makes him way stronger and near a god of destructions level therefore they would be shocked
you completely fail to understand the points and instead hide behind what ifs ie what if goku got weaker, what if this etc
1. No, I'm not arguing at all to up until that point. At the time of the exhibition matches in the tournament, base Goku hasn't the "power of a god" because every other character says so, and that's all I need to prove. Your point that 60 episodes prior it was said he had it/some of it is, like I said, completely moot.
2. Goku's second base could have been stronger than Vegeta's normal base, which doubled its power. By the way, other than your bias towards the "theory I don't like" in itself this is circular reasoning: you're trying to disprove the idea of a second base by assuming the second base doesn't exist already.
3. I suppose the problem in accepting a common premise goes quite deep, then. You really think that characters say of the gods' benchmark is 1 (SSG) and that after some episode the characters raise that benchmark to some 1,000/ 10,000/ 100,000? Notwithstanding that you might as well be assuming that every other non-God character, including #18, Piccolo, reaches it by doing some simple training on their own, when Piccolo couldn't even become as strong as Super Saiyan Goku from the Buu arc after six years.
First and foremost, like I said, with this kind of logic also can't justify Gohan: some of your points rest on terminology like "chikara", while Piccolo said Gohan did not possess the same power/strength ("chikara") he used against Buu when they fought. "Chikara" is statistcally always used to define "strength", which is used also in the episode synopsis, etc.; again, Gohan is in completely unambiguous terms
not as strong as Ultimate Gohan up until ep. 95. This - for the
nth time - completely invalidates all of your points, since that Super Saiyan Gohan is at bare minimum consistently portrayed as stronger than base Goku.