How so ? Vegeta after being revived by Dende might've been on 3rd form Freeza's level so why wouldn't 4 years of hard training be enough to reach it ? What was said on Namek that goes against it ? Goku reached it through anger and having a high power level, same thing as Vegeta.Lord Beerus wrote:The concept of Vegeta attaining Super Saiyan pisses all over everything about what happened on Namek.
Seriously, exactly this. The difference between the androids and the new Saiyans are almost night and day. The only factor that the two situations share is power creep (other than the apparent implication of gender, but lets just leave out the power and feats of 16, 17, 19 and 20 so we can make all the critics sound sexist tooKi Breaker wrote:This seems to be intented as a joke thread, but seriously, these are two very different situations, if people legitimately can't tell the difference all I can say is they probably followed Goku down the waterfall..TekTheNinja wrote:It'd be seen as badass, same as it was. This isn't at all comparable to the universe 6 saiyan situation.
), but even then, the reasoning and execution of that power creep is very different. Like Ki Breaker says, if people can't tell the difference between the two circumstances, there's not much discussion to be had.Comments like this are completely unnecessary. Trying to frame critics as sexist pigs to de-legitimize their complaints despite almost none of the people who have voiced issues with these characters have brought up their gender in any way is totally disingenuous and offensive. Female Super Saiyans have been one of the fandom's most fervently asked for additions to the franchise since Pan and Bra were first introduced, sexism isn't a factor outside of a few fringe cases (and anyone with sense should know not to judge an entire group by it's extremists). That's not even mentioning how Android 18 (and even Videl) is universally loved by the fandom and that many were upset that she stopped fighting after marrying Krillin.MR.Mark wrote:It's a battle power bargain sale, how was 18 that strong? This is almost as bad as Kale and Califla, well sure there was Goten and Trunks, but that's not as bad because they don't have vaginas, I HATE VIGINAS!
TheMikado wrote:Michsi wrote:Because people take into consideration today's mindset as well. Not to mention that that link just leads to several things that were discussed back then and it seems like a lot to sift through for the sake of this one thread.TheMikado wrote:I mean I keep saying this there’s no need to speculate on reactions because we have them from that time period. Or I guess people want to continue making up fake scenarios in their heads. Enjoy.
But that makes no sense, we don’t judge art against our own present day standards we judge them against their peers. Dragonball for during its time period stood out amongst its peer thus garnering it’s global positive reception. Modern Dragonball doesn’t. Essentially the purpose makes little sense and is about as productive as evaluating a musket in its effectiveness in modern combat.
Yes the casual observer does, but even then the average person doesn’t look at a black and white film and complain about the film quality or gender roles of the time. These things are understood and generally the art is judged on its merits of the time even with casual observers. If that were the case as you claim then there would never be such as thing as “classics” because the previous would generally be deemed outdated and inferior.Michsi wrote:TheMikado wrote:Michsi wrote:
Because people take into consideration today's mindset as well. Not to mention that that link just leads to several things that were discussed back then and it seems like a lot to sift through for the sake of this one thread.
But that makes no sense, we don’t judge art against our own present day standards we judge them against their peers. Dragonball for during its time period stood out amongst its peer thus garnering it’s global positive reception. Modern Dragonball doesn’t. Essentially the purpose makes little sense and is about as productive as evaluating a musket in its effectiveness in modern combat.
Yes, we do. Why do you think so many artists got famous postmortem. Art doesn't exist in a vacuum, and everyone judges what they absorb through the lens of their own belief system one way or another, and the current social climate does a lot to shape that core system.
That’s rich coming from the guy I scared out of his own thread lolDSB wrote:viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40415
Welcome to the DBZ Reactions thread
And Dont mind that Mikado guy. He lacks imagination at the base level.
As for Lord beerus. Sure. If Vegeta getting SSJ craps all over Namek saga. They should have ended it at Namek saga. Blasphemy!
The whole crux of how the Super Saiyan transformation could be achieved during the Namek/Freeza arc automatically disqualified Vegeta from attaining it because he was an evil bastard with diabolical intentions. Then several chapters later he attain because he's evil bastard with diabolical intentions.sintzu wrote:How so ? Vegeta after being revived by Dende might've been on 3rd form Freeza's level so why wouldn't 4 years of hard training be enough to reach it ? What was said on Namek that goes against it ? Goku reached it through anger and having a high power level, same thing as Vegeta.Lord Beerus wrote:The concept of Vegeta attaining Super Saiyan pisses all over everything about what happened on Namek.
At least he didn't reach it by getting a "tingly" back.
Yes, being aware it was made in another time period gives the observer a different perspective than it would've had it come out presently- but that's not the purpose of this thread. This is about how a story element would've been received today, not how today's fans view the scene that came out a long time ago. It's existence is already cemented in the collective consciousness of the fandom, whereas new and fresh things get discussed and picked apart far more vehemently and they are done so through opinions influenced by the present day mentality.TheMikado wrote: Yes the casual observer does, but even then the average person doesn’t look at a black and white film and complain about the film quality or gender roles of the time. These things are understood and generally the art is judged on its merits of the time even with casual observers. If that were the case as you claim then there would never be such as thing as “classics” because the previous would generally be deemed outdated and inferior.
Lol I'm not scared. I just didnt want to deal with your thick head which doesnt want to take in anythingTheMikado wrote:That’s rich coming from the guy I scared out of his own thread lolDSB wrote:viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40415
Welcome to the DBZ Reactions thread
And Dont mind that Mikado guy. He lacks imagination at the base level.
As for Lord beerus. Sure. If Vegeta getting SSJ craps all over Namek saga. They should have ended it at Namek saga. Blasphemy!
sintzu wrote:No cause unlike Super, she didn't come out of nowhere.
But you are basising this on a fundamental belief that the fandom is different when fans have been the same throughout history and technology has only magnified this perception that’s all. Again the idea that the story elements would not categorically be well received in the present day has already proven false with Kai receiving record numbers on the Kai release on nick toons and in the sub 18 bracket would primarily be seeing story elements for he first time. The idea that it would be some result of public opinion of Z would go against the success of GT in this time frame as well. We have BOTH past and present examples of Z releasing to new audiences and their reactions to those story elements.Michsi wrote:Yes, being aware it was made in another time period gives the observer a different perspective than it would've had it come out presently- but that's not the purpose of this thread. This is about how a story element would've been received today, not how today's fans view the scene that came out a long time ago. It's existence is already cemented in the collective consciousness of the fandom, whereas new and fresh things get discussed and picked apart far more vehemently and they are done so through opinions influenced by the present day mentality.TheMikado wrote: Yes the casual observer does, but even then the average person doesn’t look at a black and white film and complain about the film quality or gender roles of the time. These things are understood and generally the art is judged on its merits of the time even with casual observers. If that were the case as you claim then there would never be such as thing as “classics” because the previous would generally be deemed outdated and inferior.
Sounds like being scared to me big shot.DSB wrote:Lol I'm not scared. I just didnt want to deal with your thick head which doesnt want to take in anythingTheMikado wrote:That’s rich coming from the guy I scared out of his own thread lolDSB wrote:viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40415
Welcome to the DBZ Reactions thread
And Dont mind that Mikado guy. He lacks imagination at the base level.
As for Lord beerus. Sure. If Vegeta getting SSJ craps all over Namek saga. They should have ended it at Namek saga. Blasphemy!
Correct, but the point is Trunks repeatedly warned them how powerful they were. They were so powerful they had killed everyone in his timeline. Basically in universe the androids had them sh*tting their pants for three straight years before hey even got there and when they finally did they were all that they were cracked up to be.MR.Mark wrote:sintzu wrote:No cause unlike Super, she didn't come out of nowhere.
Didn't Trunks warn everyone about 19 and 20? 18 didn't even exist until an editor got involved.
We don't know when he got involved and regardless of it being before or after Trunks showed up, I'm strictly speaking within the context of the story. In the story Trunks told them about 17 & 18.MR.Mark wrote:Didn't Trunks warn everyone about 19 and 20? 18 didn't even exist until an editor got involved.
Califlya is like a big sister to Kale and they have a nice bond together which lead to a great battle with Goku Meanwhile we have characters like Tenshinhan, Chouzu, Yajorobe, Lunch, etc who had zero back story.
Trunks suspects that it was due to him and Cell messing with time.MR.Mark wrote:But why exactly are 17 and 18 so strong in the main timeline ?
If it weren't for Toriyama interviews we'd have zero backstory on 17 and 18 aswell. They were just kids that were strong cause the plot needed them to be, no different than the female saiyans.
They have better personalities and their power wasn't out of nowhere. Sure they didn't have the deepest backstories but they were better than the none existent ones the Saiyans have.MR.Mark wrote:How are they miles ahead? Examples ?
TheMikado wrote:But you are basising this on a fundamental belief that the fandom is different when fans have been the same throughout history and technology has only magnified this perception that’s all. Again the idea that the story elements would not categorically be well received in the present day has already proven false with Kai receiving record numbers on the Kai release on nick toons and in the sub 18 bracket would primarily be seeing story elements for he first time. The idea that it would be some result of public opinion of Z would go against the success of GT in this time frame as well. We have BOTH past and present examples of Z releasing to new audiences and their reactions to those story elements.Michsi wrote:Yes, being aware it was made in another time period gives the observer a different perspective than it would've had it come out presently- but that's not the purpose of this thread. This is about how a story element would've been received today, not how today's fans view the scene that came out a long time ago. It's existence is already cemented in the collective consciousness of the fandom, whereas new and fresh things get discussed and picked apart far more vehemently and they are done so through opinions influenced by the present day mentality.TheMikado wrote: Yes the casual observer does, but even then the average person doesn’t look at a black and white film and complain about the film quality or gender roles of the time. These things are understood and generally the art is judged on its merits of the time even with casual observers. If that were the case as you claim then there would never be such as thing as “classics” because the previous would generally be deemed outdated and inferior.
In fact we even have this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-U15QEbKFN0
The point is Z is continually re-released to new audiences and the best we can do here is fabricate some rather actually finding examples of people experiencing DBZ for the first time recently. We have actual scenarios that mirror what this thread wants to accomplish yet those examples are being ignored as if they don’t exist in favor of some attempt at people easing a insecurity of a show they like not being particularly good.
Nonsense. They were kids who were picked up by Gero and converted into android superweapons against their will. They were as strong as they were because he specifically built them to be that strong. They disobeyed Gero's orders and were deactivated and put into stasis. They were built up from the moment Trunks came back in time as being world ending threats and everything we needed to know about them is spelled out in no uncertain terms, including their abilities and limitations. You're making a false equivalence with the androids to justify the execution of the Saiyan girls, but the execution behind Caulifla and Kale is not the same as with Androids 17 and 18.MR.Mark wrote:But why exactly are 17 and 18 so strong in the main timeline? Plot reasons for Cell? If it weren't for Toriyama interviews we'd have zero backstory on 17 and 18 aswell. They we just kids that were strong cause the plot needed them to be, no different than the female saiyans.
