Why do people have a problem with Vegeta doing better against jiren?

[Issei189]

Because that implies SSB Vegeta > UI Goku > SSB Kaioken x20 Goku. You realize it's stupid, i hope.

But that won't happen, i have already noticed that Jiren is just faking the pain. Yes, he's doing the same strategy Goku Black adopted in ep. 56. He's giving Vegeta the illusion that he's winning, then when he least expects it, he will go on the offensive. Jiren is a genius. He could just eliminate Vegeta (because he absolutely stomped SSB Kaioken x20 Goku, so logic dictates he would have no problem at all against SSB Vegeta), but why do that when he can first shatter his hopes and humiliate him?

But perhaps my mistake is thinking Toei cares about power-scaling and logic. I guess i've forgotten about ep. 66, haha.

That can't be the case because Jiren was sweating too, so something is not right

https://i.gyazo.com/c020a5599ee0a036aff ... 9a0da6.png

This could be one of Toei's biggest mess ups because of Kaioken or Vegeta received an unrealistic boost, so just let's wait and see until the episode comes out

[Supersaiyanbulla]

Because it makes no sense Vegeta can do better than Kaio-ken X20. Though i'm more concerned with you mentioning you watch Seththeprogrammer. One of the more annoying fanboys in the DB community.

Nah I don't really watch him but he made a new video on the vegeta vs jiren preview he actually made a good point.

[TBMx]

I love how you people can't wait until the episode actually comes out and will complain before seeing how it explains it. This is why people can't stand Goku fanboys.

Where can I find your criticism of Vegeta fanboys not waiting for the episode to come out to see if he's actually even doing better?

Because Vegeta fans are claiming that he "seems" to be doing better. Seems.

Goku fans know their character will be the strongest by the end of this arc, so complaining that another character, his so called archrival no less, appears stronger than him before even seeing the explanation, despite knowing Goku will still surpass him, strikes me as a special kind of asinine.

[Ki Breaker]

I never really saw what the issue was with the Universe 6 Saiyans. Where they stand is pretty simple to me.

And I envy you for that mate..
If you don't mind, I would like to know your interpretation of where do they exactly stand?

[Code]

Vegetas base form must be 20x as strong as Gokus, for his SSB to be on the same level as SSB Kaio-ken X20 Goku.

x = Gokus base power
y = Vegetas base power
1000 = multiplier for SSB (Random number, basically. We don't know the real number, but the math is the same for every multiplier, so whatever)

(x * 1000) * 20 = y * 1000
Left side is SSB Kaio-ken X20 Goku, right side is SSB Vegeta.
What needs to be true, for both sides to be the same value? y = 20x

(x * 1000) * 20 = 20x * 1000
(x * 1000) * 20 = 20.000x
1000x * 20 = 20.000x
20.000x = 20.000x

Is this reasonable? 20x as strong is a lot! It basically means, Vegeta in base would one-shot Goku in base. Doesn't seem likely.
And it only puts him on the same level as SSB Kaio-ken X20 Goku. To actually do better than Goku against Jiren, Vegetas base must like what... 50x Gokus base? 100x?

Pretty much BS power scaling.

[SupremeKai25]

Vegetas base form must be 20x as strong as Gokus, for his SSB to be on the same level as SSB Kaio-ken X20 Goku.

x = Gokus base power
y = Vegetas base power
1000 = multiplier for SSB (Random number, basically. We don't know the real number, but the math is the same for every multiplier, so whatever)

(x * 1000) * 20 = y * 1000
Left side is SSB Kaio-ken X20 Goku, right side is SSB Vegeta.
What needs to be true, for both sides to be the same value? y = 20x

(x * 1000) * 20 = 20x * 1000
(x * 1000) * 20 = 20.000x
1000x * 20 = 20.000x
20.000x = 20.000x

Is this reasonable? 20x as strong is a lot! It basically means, Vegeta in base would one-shot Goku in base. Doesn't seem likely.
And it only puts him on the same level as SSB Kaio-ken X20 Goku. To actually do better than Goku against Jiren, Vegetas base must like what... 50x Gokus base? 100x?

Pretty much BS power scaling.

Indeed. I'm still hoping Jiren is simply deceiving Vegeta (anime Jiren being less 'honorable' than manga Jiren also). Time will tell. But if SSB Vegeta is seriously able to defeat Jiren, you can expect -massive- backlash from the community.

I wonder if Toei is going to give Vegeta the 'Completed' Super Saiyan Blue form that Goku used against Fused Zamasu in the manga. If i'm not mistaken, Vegeta already has that in the manga (he used it during a spar with Beerus).

[TBMx]

I wish Vegeta SSB was over 20x as strong as SSB Goku, makes them even after this debacle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpRHH63qWaM

[immakillya]

I doubt ssb kk x 20 is actually 20 times stronger than ssb.
I believe kk x 20 is just 20 times his base, and then ssb gets added on top of that.
So ssb kk x 20 goku = 20 times goku base plus ssb

[Brettjr25]

I'd love for him to actually be the hero (or someone who steps up and takes down the big bad while nobody else can) instead of this stupid plot device he's become.

Isn't that what Vegeta was ever since the cell arc?

Errr, no. The buu arc had some of Vegetas best development hell I would argue that Vegeta received the best character development throughout Z.

That can't be the case because Jiren was sweating too, so something is not right

https://i.gyazo.com/c020a5599ee0a036aff ... 9a0da6.png

This could be one of Toei's biggest mess ups because of Kaioken or Vegeta received an unrealistic boost, so just let's wait and see until the episode comes out

Well considering that SS and SSB is supposed to give you incredible speed boosts over base, I think Vegeta being destroyed by Hit but base Goku actively dodging, was a greater injustice.

[Nickolaidas]

I doubt ssb kk x 20 is actually 20 times stronger than ssb.
I believe kk x 20 is just 20 times his base, and then ssb gets added on top of that.
So ssb kk x 20 goku = 20 times goku base plus ssb

That's the very definition of headcanon.

[immakillya]

I doubt ssb kk x 20 is actually 20 times stronger than ssb.
I believe kk x 20 is just 20 times his base, and then ssb gets added on top of that.
So ssb kk x 20 goku = 20 times goku base plus ssb

That's the very definition of headcanon.

Yeah it is, and it makes more sense than ssb goku having his power multiplied by 10 fighting hit, and 20 fighting Jiren, yet still being said to be weaker than Beerus... that would mean ssb goku is less than 5% the power beerus, and that just doesn't make any sense at all

[Nickolaidas]

I doubt ssb kk x 20 is actually 20 times stronger than ssb.
I believe kk x 20 is just 20 times his base, and then ssb gets added on top of that.
So ssb kk x 20 goku = 20 times goku base plus ssb

That's the very definition of headcanon.

Yeah it is, and it makes more sense than ssb goku having his power multiplied by 10 fighting hit, and 20 fighting Jiren, yet still being said to be weaker than Beerus... that would mean ssb goku is less than 5% the power beerus, and that just doesn't make any sense at all

It makes sense once people realize that Super doesn't give a crap about the math and simply wants to do cool shit. Which I'm all for it.

Also (not targeted at you specifically), I find weird the fact that people are losing their shit over whether SSB Vegeta is stronger than SSB KKx20 Goku and mostly ignored the part where SSB GOKU IS CASUALLY PARRYING JIREN'S ATTACKS WITH CLOSED EYES AS HE LAUGHS.

[immakillya]

That's the very definition of headcanon.

Yeah it is, and it makes more sense than ssb goku having his power multiplied by 10 fighting hit, and 20 fighting Jiren, yet still being said to be weaker than Beerus... that would mean ssb goku is less than 5% the power beerus, and that just doesn't make any sense at all

It makes sense once people realize that Super doesn't give a crap about the math and simply wants to do cool shit. Which I'm all for it.

I know super doesn't care about the math. That is why I do have my own headcanon, and I am also all for super doing cool stuff. I love dbs. I'm honestly not complaining. Just trying to have a discussion.

[Yedis]

The episode didn't even air yet. At the end of the preview you see Vegeta with bruises on his face and his armor broken charging a final flash which is likely a last resort attack.

The preview is trying to mislead people

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The straight answer is power levels/scaling.

Something which has been greatly relaxed in the current anime, ESPECIALLY this tournament.

It's an answer I don't see value or merit in, but it's an answer nonetheless.

[Lord Beerus]

I never really saw what the issue was with the Universe 6 Saiyans. Where they stand is pretty simple to me.

And I envy you for that mate, I really do..
If you don't mind, I would like to know your interpretation of where do they exactly stand?

Sure.

1. Ultra Instinct Goku
2. SSJ2 Kefla
3. SSJB Kaioken x20 Genki Dama
4. SSJB Kaioken x10 & x20 (100%)
5. SSJB Kaioken (100%)
5. Golden Freeza/SSJB Goku (100%)
6. SSJB Kaioken (>100%)/SSJ Kefla
7. SSJB Goku (>100%)/SSJG Goku (100%)
8. Base Kelfa
9. SSJG Goku (>100%)
10 SSJ Beserker Kale (Controlled)
11. SSJ3 Goku
12. SSJ2 Goku & Vegeta
13. SSJ Beserker Kale (Uncontrolled)/SSJ2 Goku/SSJ2 Caulfila
14. SSJ2 Goku (>100%)/SSJ Kale
15. SSJ2 Cabba
16. SSJ Goku/Vegeta
15. SSJ Cabba/SSJ Caulifla
16. Final Form Freeza/Base Goku & Vegeta
17. Base Caulifla/Base Cabba/Base Kale

[WittyUsername]

Vegeta putting up a good fight against Jiren comes across as pandering to me. UI Goku could barely even keep up with Jiren, and yet Vegeta is supposed to be able to give him a hard time? Not to mention that having Vegeta singlehandedly go up against Jiren kind of makes the former seem unimpressive, when you take into account that Vegetable needed to team up with Goku, Gohan, Freeza, and #17 to defeat Aniraza.

[Zamasu55]

Because it makes no sense.

[Khandom101]

I thought Trunks was the king of asspull but Vegeta seriously takes the cake on this one. Makes me Hate his Character even more.

[TheOne]

Honestly it’s actually getting retarded how most of this youtubers are in denial like Christ let Vegeta fans have this for once even seththeprogrammer says this and that’s saying something,meanwhile the Japanese fans are happy Vegeta getting this.


This isn’t towards anyone on this site just to let people know.

Just stop.Now back to topic,powerscaling.The only thing jiren phased was UI goku which was stronger than kkx20 ssb goku and vegeta fans should not be getting too happy,have they forgotten how much the previews have lied?

How can Jiren sweating and having semi worried looks on his face be a lie...? Nobody expects him to beat Jiren but he’s being portrayed as performing a heck of a lot better than Goku did at SSBKK.

Now that Vegeta has the potential to get some spotlight, everyone wants to freak out about scaling?

”Nevermind all the issues before. Vegeta is where we draw the line!!”

OR

“We’re tired of this being a Goku show. Let someone else shine for a change”