Future Trunks Arc vs Universal Survival Arc

[Grimlock]

Ok so in DB the Piccolo Daimao Arc wins by default since most of the arcs are tournament arcs?

Yes, along with Red Ribbon saga. Why do people seem/tend to prefer a bunch of fights to plot? As a kid is okay to prefer fights/tournaments, you may not understand what's going on. But once you grow up, one would expect that people would want a little story to follow, isn't?

[SupremeKai25]

Ok so in DB the Piccolo Daimao Arc wins by default since most of the arcs are tournament arcs?

Yes, along with Red Ribbon saga. Why do people seem/tend to prefer a bunch of fights to plot? As a kid is okay to prefer fights/tournaments, you may not understand what's going on. But once you grow up, one would expect that people would want a little story to follow, isn't?

Indeed. Actually, It's interesting how Super had 3 original arcs, and only one of them was story-driven. I guess making a Tournament-based arc is easier. The hardest thing, of course, is writing a good villain. If the main villain of an arc is not good, the arc will fail. Since the story of an arc revolves around the main villain. And writing a good villain is very difficult! You have to give them compelling motivations, unique powers and interesting backstories, and they need to feel like an actual threat to be taken seriously. Whereas in a tournament you don't need a villain at all. You can just write antagonists like Hit and Jiren who are kind of assholes but not really genocidal maniacs like Frieza and Zamasu.

But as this thread, and many other polls prove, people tend to prefer the Future Trunks arc over the Universal Survival arc. It seems that the latter's entertainment value was indirectly proportional to the number of episodes it had.

[PFM18]

If the main villain of an arc is not good, the arc will fail. Since the story of an arc revolves around the main villain. And writing a good villain is very difficult! You have to give them compelling motivations, unique powers and interesting backstories, and they need to feel like an actual threat to be taken seriously.

Honestly, I don't think any of this is really entirely true. The Buu Arc did not have a good villain but that arc did not fail. None of the DBZ villains had compelling motivations and even fewer had unique powers. All of the villains in DBZ copied each other. Cell used the KHH, the "Special Beam Cannon", and the Kienzan I believe. Buu was even less unique he used the Instantaneous Movement, KHH, and explosive waves. The only thing that was remotely unique was the candy beam and that was only used in a recreational sense and not really used in a threatening combat situation. When anybody actually threatened him in power he never used it. Most villains in this franchise aren't really much of the things you describe and with that definition, none of the villains are really "good villains." You can easily write a compelling interesting story in the form of a tournament. They can still easily be interesting stories, but not as plot-driven or be intertwined with a villain in the story. The only real examples of not having an interesting story in tournament arcs are the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai and the Universe 6 Tournament.

[Grimlock]

I guess making a Tournament-based arc is easier.

And lazier, and cheaper. Mainly considering the fact that we all know, even before it starts, who is going to win. I had a perfect little story in my mind to pop up towards the end of Universe Survival saga, but they preferred to end it in the cheapest way.

The hardest thing, of course, is writing a good villain. If the main villain of an arc is not good, the arc will fail. (...) You have to give them compelling motivations, unique powers and interesting backstories

Dragon Ball villains have a pattern, a pre-established standard. They're all not that much developed, most come out of nowhere/have little backstory and such. It's actually within that context that we analyze if the villain is good or not through how they are handled and what they bring to the table. Dragon Ball is very simple and once you grasp that idea, you don't become too picky. Taking me as an example, I don't need a villain to have all those characteristics you mentioned in order for the villain to be good. This is asking too much. See, I like Janemba for his design and techniques, yet, he doesn't have any backstory or personality and the lore he's involved upon his debut appearance is not that interesting, however, some things can compensate others. This is how I see Dragon Ball villains.

Whereas in a tournament you don't need a villain at all. You can just write antagonists like Hit and Jiren who are kind of assholes but not really genocidal maniacs like Frieza and Zamasu.

My problem with Dragon Ball tournaments are just the lack of a deeper meaning. Nothing is really going on other than just a bunch of random fights that will not lead anywhere. The characters are all bland and they don't bring content to the table. See, I like ice-element powers. What would I have not given to see someone in Universe Survival saga using that power while being well handled and with a cool design? They are all generic. Hit is the only one that kind of stands out for his Time Skip abilities, and even if I try to think about other characters and their powers, nothing and no one comes to mind, it's just too much of a wasted potential of the so-called "main series" that people like to worship and tend to say nonsense about other works that do things better.

[SupremeKai25]

Another problem is that there is no tension in a tournament. It is obvious to see why. The rules make it so that no contestant can die, so you never feel like the life of your favourite character is at stake, and at the same time you know that the main antagonist will never unleash their power. Otherwise, if killing were allowed, Jiren would have just roflstomped everyone in the first 45 seconds and be done with it. Even the fact that the Universes would be erased wasn't such a scary thought, considering that it was clear that the protagonists would use the Super Dragon Balls to restore them.

Whereas a story-driven arc like the Future Trunks arc was full of tension and suspense. Certainly because the Future timeline did not enjoy the plot armor given by the End of Z, so you didn't know if the timeline would actually be saved. In the end, it wasn't. In addition, there were no rules to follow, so a main character dying to Zamasu could have been very possible. Indeed, Goku, Vegeta and Trunks came close to death several times throughout the arc, and Future Bulma was brutally murdered in the first episode of the arc.

If the Universe Survival arc had had more real tension, I strongly believe that it would have been much better. I was hoping that something unexpected would happen, that perhaps the Tournament would be interrupted by the appearance of a new villain and something major would ensue. Guess I was wrong.

Anyway, I hope that if Super comes back it will have more story-driven arcs with a good villain like Zamasu, high stakes and tragic situations. Maybe throw in a tournament for those who enjoy the battles but don't care about the narrative.

If the main villain of an arc is not good, the arc will fail. Since the story of an arc revolves around the main villain. And writing a good villain is very difficult! You have to give them compelling motivations, unique powers and interesting backstories, and they need to feel like an actual threat to be taken seriously.

Honestly, I don't think any of this is really entirely true. The Buu Arc did not have a good villain but that arc did not fail. None of the DBZ villains had compelling motivations and even fewer had unique powers. All of the villains in DBZ copied each other. Cell used the KHH, the "Special Beam Cannon", and the Kienzan I believe. Buu was even less unique he used the Instantaneous Movement, KHH, and explosive waves. The only thing that was remotely unique was the candy beam and that was only used in a recreational sense and not really used in a threatening combat situation. When anybody actually threatened him in power he never used it. Most villains in this franchise aren't really much of the things you describe and with that definition, none of the villains are really "good villains." You can easily write a compelling interesting story in the form of a tournament. They can still easily be interesting stories, but not as plot-driven or be intertwined with a villain in the story. The only real examples of not having an interesting story in tournament arcs are the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai and the Universe 6 Tournament.

Indeed, I don't know what I was thinking when I made that post. Frieza, Cell and Buu did not have compelling motivations and most of Cell's techniques were taken from other fighters. Though the backstory of Cell was cool, I like that they developed it with flashbacks.

[Grimlock]

Another problem is that there is no tension in a tournament. It is obvious to see why. The rules make it so that no contestant can die, so you never feel like the life of your favourite character is at stake, and at the same time you know that the main antagonist will never unleash their power. Otherwise, if killing were allowed, Jiren would have just roflstomped everyone in the first 45 seconds and be done with it. Even the fact that the Universes would be erased wasn't such a scary thought, considering that it was clear that the protagonists would use the Super Dragon Balls to restore them.

Yeah, the lack of tension... Of freaking quintillion of lives being erased! Holy fuck... How do you erase entire Universes and be happy about it!? That Universe 2 erase sequence scene. I had already given up on that crappy saga by that point. No, just no! I have to admit that I was caught a little bit of tense when Universe 9 was erased, that actually gave me a little bit of faith that it will be something different, the look of horror of Universe 9's Kaioshin, the no reaction of the God of Destruction, the look of Daishinkan... But nope... Starting with Universe 10 erase I was indifferent even though I didn't want Gowasu to be erased.

I gave up on tournaments entirely, now I'll only watch it if it brings a story, if it has a real meaning.

If the Universe Survival arc had had more real tension, I strongly believe that it would have been much better. I was hoping that something unexpected would happen, that perhaps the Tournament would be interrupted by the appearance of a new villain and something major would ensue. Guess I was wrong.

Oh, no doubt about it. I was hoping for the same, probably we were just hoping/asking too much as well.

Anyway, I hope that if Super comes back it will have more story-driven arcs with a good villain like Zamasu, high stakes and tragic situations. Maybe throw in a tournament for those who enjoy the battles but don't care about the narrative.

Dragon Ball cannot stay in the safe zone or it'll only go downhill. No wonder games have become more interesting by this point. The next "main series" must contain some substancial plot and rely on the unexpected, actually this already goes for the Dragon Ball Super movie too. I'm expecting lots of the necessary plot points.