ritual god multiplier

[shadowfox87]

SSG Goku was apparently stronger than SSJ Vegetto but massively inferior to base Kefla. According to that, SSG is less than some tens of times stronger than base Caulifla or Kale.

People want to use SSJ multipliers listed in the Super Exciting Guide, yet not the Potara multiplier A x B. Namek SSJ Goku's PL was 150,000,000. That would mean SSJ Vegetto = Buu saga SSJ Goku's PL × SSJ Vegeta's PL.

So at the very minimum that would be a 150,000,000 × 50 multiplier stacked on top of base Goku as a comparison. At the very minimum.

Do you know how ridiculous that is? That is an absurd number and eclipses anything beyond non fusion standards, in fact I'd be surprised why BoG Vegetto wouldn't be good enough for Beerus at that point.

Not trying to ruin your fun. But the double standards being used for official numbers is egregious. Anybody who does this must realize that it's all pure headcanon, true fusion is dictated by plot. That's why I don't pay any attention to this multiplier business to begin with.

Note that Base Kefla wasn't shown in the manga at all. You're right, by my math, Base Kelfa should NOT have been stronger than SSG Goku, a base saiyan without god ki or berserker. Kale's base was indeed stronger than SSJ Caulifla though.

Using math and multipliers is not futile. I once thought it was and so never bothered. However, it can be done as long as you define your assumptions and your source material (anime or manga). I use manga primarily. The anime is inconsistent and is futile to use. If you stick to only 1 source, then you won't have double standards.

Oh, and as for not using the "A x B" given in the SEG, that is because cross does not always mean multiplication. There are published papers in science, where two variables are related and a correlation is done between them, so they use cross. They write it exactly the same way. Essentially, here it is being used as a statistical interaction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplication_sign

For me, it is (A+B) x C where C is unknown and you have to derive it. The same goes for Fusion Dance but C is lower and depends on the accuracy of the fusion dance, the similarities of battle power and physical attributes of the fusees.

I got about 400,000.

Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7)
Base Vegito > 1.5x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x 400x Base Goku
Base Vegito > 600x Base Goku

SSG Goku (BoG)> SSJ3 Vegito (BoG)
SSG > 1.5x SSJ3 Vegito
SSG > 1.5x 400x 600x Base Goku
SSG > 360,000x Base Goku
SSG ~ 400,000x Base Goku

This is more or less where I stand too for both God and SS4.

There was a time when people laughed at the idea that SSJ4 is only 500x times Base Goku. The idea was that SSJ4 is only a humanoid controlled version of the Golden Oozaru and that the Golden Oozaru is a regular Oozaru in SSJ. Hence, 50x10 = 500. People reasoned, that it should be 4000x because they took the SSJ3 multiplier and multiplied it by the Oozaru multiplier. However, based on recent evidence on how the hairstyle of a Golden Oozaru does not change, Goku is definitely NOT in SSJ3 when in Golden Oozaru, not even SSJ2. In addition, Goku says "10x Kamehameha" repeatedly throughout the series, implying that he's 10x more powerful than his regular SSJ. So for me, a SSJ4 is only 500x and then after absorbing the energies of his friends, he becomes 2x powerful. Again, my own headcanon.

[shadowfox87]

the problem with your statement is that you keep vegetto = x1,5 ssj3 Goku, that thing is never stated and it is'nt even ok with the series'es power scaling at all. it is just headcanon, plus wrong headcanon. that makes no sense at all

Of course it's headcanon. I never stated it was anything else lol. I use 1.5 because percentage gaps is all we can use. Official power levels ended at the Freeza saga. The percentage gap between Freeza at 100% and SSJ Goku was 25%. Hence, giving a 50% gap between Vegetto and SSJ3 Goku to me is very reasonable. Others will give a higher value. But by doing that, you also increase the potara multiplier. I'm going under the assumption that when Beerus fights SSJ3 Goku, that Goku already has caught up to Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks, surpassing them both.

Yes, you're right that movies are generally not canon, however, Yo Son Goku was written by Toriyama. There is a manga adaptation of that movie and the same thing occurs, so I will count that. Discounting Movie 13 is fine though.

[emperior]

as i told twice vegetto never really matters in finding the multiplier. i dont remember if i've told this too, but after bog i use a x500 multiplier for ssj god on top of the god absorbed base form , that its tronger than ritusl god Goku from bog obiously. so, taking this into an account ssb kaioken x20 is ""only"" a x500'000 god base, that it alone is sextillions of times base Goku without god absorbed, and base Goku without god yet is billions/trilllions in terms of power level in his base form, depending on wich moment of super are we taking in consideration

You can’t take into consideration GT to calculate SSG’s power. Nor you can take into account base Vegetto being stronger than Buutenks as it was never proven in the manga. You absolutely shouldn’t consider Xenoverse’s interactions either.
There’s no way SSG is that strong. I repeat, it was super strong in BoG but it’s no longer the case. It wasn’t Beerus who was buffed but SSG that was nerfed. In fact we later see in the serie how Freeza, Trunks, Gohan and 17 have been able to reach and surpass that same level (I only talk about the characters who appeared before Super, as we know how strong they were before). Which means that SSG is no longer that unreachable realm of power that was in BoG. That was probably decided to still keep the other characters relevant in some ways, for a long running show. Toriyama probably had plans to end the whole God thing introduced in BoG in a couple of movies where only Goku and Vegeta would have gotten the main fights.

I repeat, if we want to give SSG a static multiplier on top of base then it’s not that high. I still see it as a 4’000x (I don’t see it being any lower as Goku was surprised by its immense power) but it could go up to even 5’000, 8’000’, 10’000, 20’000 and so on but I would cap it at 50’000x at best, and that would be very generous.

I imagine that at the time of Super’s BoG, Beerus is around 1 million times stronger than Goku when at their best. 1 million being a completely arbitrary number which would fit to show just how much stronger Beerus is, and also fits with Beerus having lived millions of years.
Whis’ comparison to the big tree of Beerus’ planet is perfect too.

i think i have to take in account gt too, if there is said something that can help to scale ritual god's power. reguarding xenoverse I'm ok with you, i referred to that just because it is perfectly matched with my results.

no, multiplier neverchanges if you dont consider base Goku (super) > bog god Goku, if you keep goku's base in the billions/trillions trought super, god's multiplier shall remain the same, and theres no reason to really change it in my opinion.

io you, like me , use to put base Goku (super) > bog god Goku , as i said obviously the multiplier decreases esponentially, but it is balanced by the god base form (in fact, post bog i use x1'000 as god multiplier, because it will obviously be stupid to stac a quadrillions fold multiplier on to of aa octillins-nonillions base form. i mean, you can do it, but it hasent got sense at all)

GT is a completely different continuity and it wasn’t written by Toriyama. He doesn’t consider anything of GT so why should you?

[PFM18]

I got about 400,000.

Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7)
Base Vegito > 1.5x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x 400x Base Goku
Base Vegito > 600x Base Goku

SSG Goku (BoG)> SSJ3 Vegito (BoG)
SSG > 1.5x SSJ3 Vegito
SSG > 1.5x 400x 600x Base Goku
SSG > 360,000x Base Goku
SSG ~ 400,000x Base Goku

oooh boy thats fucked up.

no, in z vegetto isnt only a x1,5 of ssj3 Goku, but a lot more

base vegettto >buutenks >>mystic gohan>>super buu >=ssj3 gotenks>>>>ssj gotenks post train >>ssj gotenks before train >goku ssj3 >fat buu

the thing is like this.

so no, 400'000 isnt fine as a multiplier beacause the base reasining behind that number isnt.
i've explained with this post how high it should be

You mind posting any evidence to support your claim or are you just going to say he's wrong with nothing to support it?

[ekrolo2]

You mind posting any evidence to support your claim or are you just going to say he's wrong with nothing to support it?

I think the evidence is supposed to be from the Z anime where Vegetto in his Base form is able to fight Boohan with absolute ease which in term creates the aforementioned scale presented. The problem with it is the manga never has Base Vegetto fight Boohan, he immediately transforms to beat Boohan. That scale is not applicable at all to this discussion unless we're working under the assumption Super is a sequel to the Z anime like GT is rather than a follow up to the manga.

[p-hyvo]

You mind posting any evidence to support your claim or are you just going to say he's wrong with nothing to support it?

I think the evidence is supposed to be from the Z anime where Vegetto in his Base form is able to fight Boohan with absolute ease which in term creates the aforementioned scale presented. The problem with it is the manga never has Base Vegetto fight Boohan, he immediately transforms to beat Boohan. That scale is not applicable at all to this discussion unless we're working under the assumption Super is a sequel to the Z anime like GT is rather than a follow up to the manga.

an offivial release claims that base vegeth is weaker than buuhan, but still stronger than buutenks.
so yes, in the manga base vegeth is officially weaker than buuhan, and i consider only the manga for dbz power scaling. i've never really cosidered the anime whatsoever

[ekrolo2]

You mind posting any evidence to support your claim or are you just going to say he's wrong with nothing to support it?

I think the evidence is supposed to be from the Z anime where Vegetto in his Base form is able to fight Boohan with absolute ease which in term creates the aforementioned scale presented. The problem with it is the manga never has Base Vegetto fight Boohan, he immediately transforms to beat Boohan. That scale is not applicable at all to this discussion unless we're working under the assumption Super is a sequel to the Z anime like GT is rather than a follow up to the manga.

an offivial release claims that base vegeth is weaker than buuhan, but still stronger than buutenks.
so yes, in the manga base vegeth is officially weaker than buuhan, and i consider only the manga for dbz power scaling. i've never really cosidered the anime whatsoever

As far as I know, the only official comparison made between Vegetto's power and other people's is that his Base power is above an SS3, not even specified which SS3 they're referring to

[p-hyvo]

I got about 400,000.

Base Vegito > SSJ3 Goku (Daizenshuu 7)
Base Vegito > 1.5x SSJ3 Goku
Base Vegito > 1.5x 400x Base Goku
Base Vegito > 600x Base Goku

SSG Goku (BoG)> SSJ3 Vegito (BoG)
SSG > 1.5x SSJ3 Vegito
SSG > 1.5x 400x 600x Base Goku
SSG > 360,000x Base Goku
SSG ~ 400,000x Base Goku

oooh boy thats fucked up.

no, in z vegetto isnt only a x1,5 of ssj3 Goku, but a lot more

base vegettto >buutenks >>mystic gohan>>super buu >=ssj3 gotenks>>>>ssj gotenks post train >>ssj gotenks before train >goku ssj3 >fat buu

the thing is like this.

so no, 400'000 isnt fine as a multiplier beacause the base reasining behind that number isnt.
i've explained with this post how high it should be

You mind posting any evidence to support your claim or are you just going to say he's wrong with nothing to support it?

easy, this guy means I'm wrong just because his headcanon (that is hellwrong by the way, really no way that base vegeth is only x1,5 ssj3 Goku, that makes no sense at all power level wise) doesnt match my well studied and complete theory.

i seriously dont take him in consideration, specially after seeing his theory on goku's strenght in gt. it is completly fucked up and by reading that you can guess he had never even fucking seen gt considering what he writes in it or , if he did, he didint ever took care of dialogues and facts

[p-hyvo]

I think the evidence is supposed to be from the Z anime where Vegetto in his Base form is able to fight Boohan with absolute ease which in term creates the aforementioned scale presented. The problem with it is the manga never has Base Vegetto fight Boohan, he immediately transforms to beat Boohan. That scale is not applicable at all to this discussion unless we're working under the assumption Super is a sequel to the Z anime like GT is rather than a follow up to the manga.

an offivial release claims that base vegeth is weaker than buuhan, but still stronger than buutenks.
so yes, in the manga base vegeth is officially weaker than buuhan, and i consider only the manga for dbz power scaling. i've never really cosidered the anime whatsoever

As far as I know, the only official comparison made between Vegetto's power and other people's is that his Base power is above an SS3, not even specified which SS3 they're referring to

trust me, a releas claims what i told you. i think is el manga legendario, a spanish release approved by toei directly, so to take in an account absolutely speaking of power level.
more over, the thing is ok with the more vague and generic "vegeth > ssj3 Goku" you said, and helps on comprehending effectively of how much vegeth > ssj3 goku

[PFM18]

You mind posting any evidence to support your claim or are you just going to say he's wrong with nothing to support it?

I think the evidence is supposed to be from the Z anime where Vegetto in his Base form is able to fight Boohan with absolute ease which in term creates the aforementioned scale presented. The problem with it is the manga never has Base Vegetto fight Boohan, he immediately transforms to beat Boohan. That scale is not applicable at all to this discussion unless we're working under the assumption Super is a sequel to the Z anime like GT is rather than a follow up to the manga.

Well that is evidence FOR shadowfox's claim not against it. According to the Daizenshuu, Base Vegetto>SSJ3 Goku and he estimates this difference to be 1.5x. The counter argument is that Base Vegetto is stronger than Buutenks so it has to be bigger than a 1.5x difference.

oooh boy thats fucked up.

no, in z vegetto isnt only a x1,5 of ssj3 Goku, but a lot more

base vegettto >buutenks >>mystic gohan>>super buu >=ssj3 gotenks>>>>ssj gotenks post train >>ssj gotenks before train >goku ssj3 >fat buu

the thing is like this.

so no, 400'000 isnt fine as a multiplier beacause the base reasining behind that number isnt.
i've explained with this post how high it should be

You mind posting any evidence to support your claim or are you just going to say he's wrong with nothing to support it?

easy, this guy means I'm wrong just because his headcanon (that is hellwrong by the way, really no way that base vegeth is only x1,5 ssj3 Goku, that makes no sense at all power level wise) doesnt match my well studied and complete theory.

i seriously dont take him in consideration, specially after seeing his theory on goku's strenght in gt. it is completly fucked up and by reading that you can guess he had never even fucking seen gt considering what he writes in it or , if he did, he didint ever took care of dialogues and facts

You call his rationalization headcanon and yet you reference a "release" that doesn't even exist. There is no official source material that explicitly states that Base Vegetto is stronger than Buutenks but weaker than Buuhan.

Aside from the fact that you are attacking him and not his argument,(which is a classic tactic by people with poor arguments) I don't blame him for his glossing over GT because it is a hot pile of garbage. Either way, that does not invalidate his argument and is completely and totally irrelevant to this discussion. You have failed to actually refute anything he said regarding the topic in this thread.

[ekrolo2]

an offivial release claims that base vegeth is weaker than buuhan, but still stronger than buutenks.
so yes, in the manga base vegeth is officially weaker than buuhan, and i consider only the manga for dbz power scaling. i've never really cosidered the anime whatsoever

As far as I know, the only official comparison made between Vegetto's power and other people's is that his Base power is above an SS3, not even specified which SS3 they're referring to

trust me, a releas claims what i told you. i think is el manga legendario, a spanish release approved by toei directly, so to take in an account absolutely speaking of power level.
more over, the thing is ok with the more vague and generic "vegeth > ssj3 Goku" you said, and helps on comprehending effectively of how much vegeth > ssj3 goku

If that's true, I'm gonna need some verification on this claim like link to a translation of the guide or a video talking about it. No offense, but I don't trust most people when they tell me good morning on the street, much less someone I'm talking to online.

[p-hyvo]

You mind posting any evidence to support your claim or are you just going to say he's wrong with nothing to support it?

I think the evidence is supposed to be from the Z anime where Vegetto in his Base form is able to fight Boohan with absolute ease which in term creates the aforementioned scale presented. The problem with it is the manga never has Base Vegetto fight Boohan, he immediately transforms to beat Boohan. That scale is not applicable at all to this discussion unless we're working under the assumption Super is a sequel to the Z anime like GT is rather than a follow up to the manga.

Well that is evidence FOR shadowfox's claim not against it. According to the Daizenshuu, Base Vegetto>SSJ3 Goku and he estimates this difference to be 1.5x. The counter argument is that Base Vegetto is stronger than Buutenks so it has to be bigger than a 1.5x difference.

counter argument that is directly stated in an official release moreover, so certanly means more than a false knowledgeful fan's headcanon and is surely more exact. but , guides or not that doesnt make any sense anyway. stating that vegeth is only ssj3 Goku X1,5 is indirectly stating that ssj gotenks post htc is stronger than him, consideingg that by the manga ssj gotenks pre htc was already a bit stronger than Goku, because piccolo, crillin and the same Goku trusted ssj gotenks to beat buu more than Goku himself, so ssj gotenks pre hct = 1,1-1,25x ssj3 Goku its fine .then, after the little training in htc, piccolo states that gotenks is much stronger than before, so it is ok to put him in a x2-5 range above the previous gotenks. then he goes ssj3, so it is x16-20 the previous ssj gotenks, anc in the same range in comparison with ssj3 goku circa

[PFM18]

I think the evidence is supposed to be from the Z anime where Vegetto in his Base form is able to fight Boohan with absolute ease which in term creates the aforementioned scale presented. The problem with it is the manga never has Base Vegetto fight Boohan, he immediately transforms to beat Boohan. That scale is not applicable at all to this discussion unless we're working under the assumption Super is a sequel to the Z anime like GT is rather than a follow up to the manga.

Well that is evidence FOR shadowfox's claim not against it. According to the Daizenshuu, Base Vegetto>SSJ3 Goku and he estimates this difference to be 1.5x. The counter argument is that Base Vegetto is stronger than Buutenks so it has to be bigger than a 1.5x difference.

counter argument that is directly stated in an official release moreover, so certanly means more than a false knowledgeful fan's headcanon and is surely more exact

You have been asked for verification multiple times on this "official release" and here you are still spouting how it invalidates other people's claims without validating your own.

[p-hyvo]

Well that is evidence FOR shadowfox's claim not against it. According to the Daizenshuu, Base Vegetto>SSJ3 Goku and he estimates this difference to be 1.5x. The counter argument is that Base Vegetto is stronger than Buutenks so it has to be bigger than a 1.5x difference.

counter argument that is directly stated in an official release moreover, so certanly means more than a false knowledgeful fan's headcanon and is surely more exact

You have been asked for verification multiple times on this "official release" and here you are still spouting how it invalidates other people's claims without validating your own.

i told what the release might be, in any case I'm searching for the release myself. I'm not sure i have the scan

[ekrolo2]

counter argument that is directly stated in an official release moreover, so certanly means more than a false knowledgeful fan's headcanon and is surely more exact

You have been asked for verification multiple times on this "official release" and here you are still spouting how it invalidates other people's claims without validating your own.

i told what the release might be, in any case I'm searching for the release myself. I'm not sure i have the scan

It's probably the El Manga Legendario. There was a debate in the unofficial power levels thread where it's revealed that Base Vegetto is in-fact superior to a hypothetical Gokhan, making him above regular Super Boo.

You can find the discussion here: viewtopic.php?t=14197&start=9960

[p-hyvo]

You have been asked for verification multiple times on this "official release" and here you are still spouting how it invalidates other people's claims without validating your own.

i told what the release might be, in any case I'm searching for the release myself. I'm not sure i have the scan

It's probably the El Manga Legendario. There was a debate in the unofficial power levels thread where it's revealed that Base Vegetto is in-fact superior to a hypothetical Gokhan, making him above regular Super Boo.

You can find the discussion here: viewtopic.php?t=14197&start=9960

YES THAT IS ! thaks boy, you kinda saved me. i was sure it was somewhere on this site and i was searching

[shadowfox87]

i told what the release might be, in any case I'm searching for the release myself. I'm not sure i have the scan

It's probably the El Manga Legendario. There was a debate in the unofficial power levels thread where it's revealed that Base Vegetto is in-fact superior to a hypothetical Gokhan, making him above regular Super Boo.

You have been asked for verification multiple times on this "official release" and here you are still spouting how it invalidates other people's claims without validating your own.

You can find the discussion here: viewtopic.php?t=14197&start=9960

Lol, I have read the entire El Manga Legendario. It's funny that people are using its Spanish name. The official release was by Shueisha in 2007. The SEG came after in 2009, which had the debut of the SSJ multipliers for the first time. This is why that book was disregarded. The original Japanese book got translated into Spanish and French, and the Spanish version is easier to find on the internet which is why you guys found it. I even referenced the exact pages from that book in the thread where I discuss my calculations. The only good thing about that book that the SEG does not mention is the multiplier for Super Saiyan Grade 3 which I included. Everything else is already overritten by SEG. I have gone on to state my assumptions which are based off the Daizenshuu 7.

It should be a known fact that Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku. The debate is by "how much?". You guys think that 1.5 is too low and that is reasonable. You are welcome to increase it for your own scaling. I even gave a sample calculation based on the assumption that SSJ Gotenks is STILL ~ SSJ3 Goku which leads to a Base Vegetto > 18x SSJ3 Goku. For my own reasoning, I feel that the Daizenshuu's statement is for the end of Z at which point Goku has already caught up to Gotenks and surpassed him. This should be evident from Yo Son Goku (story by Toriyama and has a manga form) and BoG. If you don't agree, that's fine. I have already tried all these numbers before, but I also have to go not just by DBZ logic but also DBS logic. It all has to fit not just 1 series. Therefore, when working out a solution, one has to consider all the constraints in a given problem. It would be nice to actually see some rational arguments with references. I've posted my entire calculations, reasoning and logic, in a thread that's in my signature called "Log Power scaling". You can even download the excel spreadsheet that shows all the math.

[theherodjl]

i know, probably umigame would come to be s17 arc tier with that multiplier.
but know what? i have explained why is like this, and i have my reason to believe that it is like i said.
i have to explain something now : after bog i keep base goku > bog god goku, and i shrink god's multiplier a lot (from sextillions to just x500, lol), and obiously if i'd conitued to use sextillions fold mult on an octillions base form, you'd been right.

And the SSJG ritual power up is a sextillion-fold increase how exactly??? You haven't listed any real evidence or justification for the figure being that high, and just expect me to take it at face value simply because you're apparently sure that there is a good reason for it. No offense, but that it totally conjecture.
What led you to believe that the SSJG power-up needs to be not a milllion, billion, trillion, quadrillion, or even a quintillion-fold boost, but a sextillion-fold to be perfectly reasonable?

[PFM18]

i know, probably umigame would come to be s17 arc tier with that multiplier.
but know what? i have explained why is like this, and i have my reason to believe that it is like i said.
i have to explain something now : after bog i keep base goku > bog god goku, and i shrink god's multiplier a lot (from sextillions to just x500, lol), and obiously if i'd conitued to use sextillions fold mult on an octillions base form, you'd been right.

And the SSJG ritual power up is a sextillion-fold increase how exactly??? You haven't listed any real evidence or justification for the figure being that high, and just expect me to take it at face value simply because you're apparently sure that there is a good reason for it. No offense, but that it totally conjecture.
What led you to believe that the SSJG power-up needs to be not a milllion, billion, trillion, quadrillion, or even a quintillion-fold boost, but a sextillion-fold to be perfectly reasonable?

Well the ritual SSG to be fair I have as 8M over Base because I have it being 2x SSJ3 Vegetto and Base Vegetto as 25x SSJ3 Goku. Millions is perfectly reasonable considering that Goku didn't think that level of power could even exist and didn't think he could ever reach it by conventional training. Now, Sextillions or Septillions though.........

[p-hyvo]

i know, probably umigame would come to be s17 arc tier with that multiplier.
but know what? i have explained why is like this, and i have my reason to believe that it is like i said.
i have to explain something now : after bog i keep base goku > bog god goku, and i shrink god's multiplier a lot (from sextillions to just x500, lol), and obiously if i'd conitued to use sextillions fold mult on an octillions base form, you'd been right.

And the SSJG ritual power up is a sextillion-fold increase how exactly??? You haven't listed any real evidence or justification for the figure being that high, and just expect me to take it at face value simply because you're apparently sure that there is a good reason for it. No offense, but that it totally conjecture.
What led you to believe that the SSJG power-up needs to be not a milllion, billion, trillion, quadrillion, or even a quintillion-fold boost, but a sextillion-fold to be perfectly reasonable?

explained right in the main post. a series of statements contained both in gt and super makes me thinkthat, and that sextillions is the gap between post buu saga ang sd saga in gt, so it is necesary to be like that in order to match the statements