"DBS: Broly" Theory: Broly is the Key to Saiyan Power

[ankokudaishogun]

For Broly in japanese his form is called 怒りの状態 Ikari no Jōtai

can you source that, please?
The SDBHeroes cards list Broly:BR's form as 怒り(Ikari=Rage) while Trunks:Future's is スーパーサイヤ怒り(SūpāSaiyaJin Ikari->Super Saiyan Rage)
Pic related for Broly:BR https://imgur.com/1nUGgNA

I do agree the naming is similar enough to suggest intent... or at least to give us a base to play with

Rage boosts being due to sudden bursts of Oozaru shining through would be an interesting addition to the lore, that's for sure.

Like every time a Ozaru is seen behind a character and\or its howl is heard

Which usually happens when the character first transform in SS. Which fuels my hypothesis that Super Saiyan transformation is actually something Ozarus were supposed to get, but evolution had it seeps into normal forms.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

For Broly in japanese his form is called 怒りの状態 Ikari no Jōtai

can you source that, please?
The SDBHeroes cards list Broly:BR's form as 怒り(Ikari=Rage) while Trunks:Future's is スーパーサイヤ怒り(SūpāSaiyaJin Ikari->Super Saiyan Rage)
Pic related for Broly:BR https://imgur.com/1nUGgNA

I do agree the naming is similar enough to suggest intent... or at least to give us a base to play with

Rage boosts being due to sudden bursts of Oozaru shining through would be an interesting addition to the lore, that's for sure.

Like every time a Ozaru is seen behind a character and\or its howl is heard

Which usually happens when the character first transform in SS. Which fuels my hypothesis that Super Saiyan transformation is actually something Ozarus were supposed to get, but evolution had it seeps into normal forms.

And perhaps Super Saiyan Full-Power is the TRUE evolution of Super Saiyan, or at least the natural kind. We also saw that when Vegeta was turning SS and Goku turning SSB from SSG, they had hints of green much like Broly show up. I broguht this up in my main post where I said that it's possible that transformation potential, particularly that of Super Saiyan, is tied to the Saiyans' heritage as Oozarus.

[ankokudaishogun]

Hypothesis: once in Full Power, if you control yourself you get SS2(And later 3, if you train for it)
But if you control the Ozaru Power you get SS4

But to control the Ozaru Power, one must be in Ozaru form the first time

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Hypothesis: once in Full Power, if you control yourself you get SS2(And later 3, if you train for it)
But if you control the Ozaru Power you get SS4

But to control the Ozaru Power, one must be in Ozaru form the first time

Wait, so you mean that physically becoming a giant primate as an Oozaru and then controlling it equals SS4?

If you mean that, then that'd mean that SS4 could potentially exist in the main continuity albeit it's unnecessary since controlling that power without a tail in Human form is better in every way.

[ankokudaishogun]

Wait, so you mean that physically becoming a giant primate as an Oozaru and then controlling it equals SS4?

You need Golden Ozaru, but yeah, that's how it's stated working in GT.
Ss4 always been more Golden Ozaru 2

If you mean that, then that'd mean that SS4 could potentially exist in the main continuity albeit it's unnecessary since controlling that power without a tail in Human form is better in every way.

I'm unconvinced it's better in every way.
We are told the normal SS transformations are inefficient, with ss1 being the best in the end because it's more bal, but Base is still the best.
No reason to believe Fp is any better.

Hell, we have seen its hard to control and from the Manga we know it can cause the user to self destruct.

"Stabilizing" it going SS2 in turn appears to cap its otherwise apparently ever-growing power.
I believe because it remove the OP from the transformation, while keeping at least part of the power.
But it cannot get MORE power.

The SS4 body is the "ultimate" Saiyan body, basically a "improved base form". You don't get further power jumps but it potential for improvement is unlimited and you get stable emotions and, iiirc, no malicy, though you keep an increased battle lust (though perfectly manageable)

Also, I feel like the wild Ozaru Power wouldn't play well with God Forms. I mean, one of the key-words of OP is "overflowing Ki", while a big point of training with God Ki was keeping it from doing exactly that.

Tl;dr: FP is the shortcut, SS4 is the real way to the Ultimate Saiyan.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Now that, I don't believe is true.

We see that, without even using Super Saiyan, Broly is able to match SSB Goku through his usage of Oozaru power in his Human form. SSB is almost assuredly stronger than SS4 by the time of Resurrection of F; even SSG is potentially stronger.

Once he actually uses that power with Super Saiyan, he requires god-level Fusion with Super Saiyan to match that power. Plus, Toriyama has made it clear in most recent material that the tails are really a handicap and unnecessary towards achieving a Saiyan's full potential. Saiyan bodies, if removed of a tail, can get strong enough that their bodies never grow them back, and now we have Saiyans evolving without tails and becoming extraordinarily strong.

Being able to access Oozaru without the tail is the ultimate state of a Saiyan bar god-forms and Ultra Instinct, as it means that the body has ascended past the need and evolved into something beyond. In essence, SS4 is the wrong way to do it, but Broly's Ikari is the right way, at least as far as modern DB is concerned.

[ankokudaishogun]

Broly can match Blue because his personal power is MAXIMUM incredibile, which is amplified by the Ozaru Power to Blue-class.

Another character without such high Base Power wouldn't be such a threat: a SSFP Vegeta back in Cell Saga wouldn't scratch a SSGod.

Ss4 is the Ultimate Ozaru that grants the power and the improved body of a Ozaru in normal size and without messed up emotions.

Full Power/Rage Boost is a throwback power up, which is very emotion-tied. The ideal would be getting that power workout the emotional compromise.
Kale and Trunks had two different outcomes to reigning in the Ape Rage

Between those two, I'd say Ss4 is better with the aim of adding God Ki, but it's not available to "evolved" tailless Saiyans who are forced to hope in Ape Rage Boost

Also: Heroes-wise ONLY Trunks's white-eyed form is Rage, otherwise he's SS1 or 2.
(we need a comprehensive database with the forms used in the various cards, is that info so hard to add to the official database, Bamco?)

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I dunno, that just doesn't seem to jive with Toriyama's handling of Saiyan power currently.

It's probably mostly to justify why tails aren't a thing anymore, but it seems like he's gone out of his way to justify why having the tails is a bad things.

> First it was losing control as you turned Oozaru
> Then the fact that the tail was a weakpoint
> Then the fact that it could be removed
> Then the fact that Saiyan bodies decide not to regrow the tail once they become strong enough
> Then other forms becoming more powerful and less costly
> Then it turned out that there was godly power to attain
> Then it turned out that Saiyans that evolve to not need tails are stronger
> Then it turned out that Saiyans can access the full extent of that power without needing a tail anyways.

Everything compounds together in Toriyama's vision for the series basically telling us that the tails were ditched because they were useless for achieving higher levels of power. Broly is but the latest and greatest example of why that is with his ability to tap into the power the tail would ordinarily afford without needing it at all.