Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 3 - DB Episodes 11-15

[MyVisionity]

Oolong is insufferable and I can’t wait to see a little less of him. I watched last weeks batch of episodes with these ones, so I’ll make a comment about some of those episodes.. I couldn’t help but cringe when Pilaf declares how he’s going to do something ‘dirty’ to Bulma and Oolong is loving every second of it. The pay off is somewhat amusing, it’s just a shame what the connotation of it all is. But yeah, it’s funny how Roshi is portrayed as the stereotypical sleaze, yet Oolong drools at the thought of a teenage girl getting raped.

While I agree that the connotations are unfortunate, I still can't help but find it all to be darkly humorous. Maybe it's because of how unabashed the writing is, or maybe because it involves a cartoon pig.

As for Oolong versus Roshi, I think the difference lies in Oolong being presented in a villainous light initially, whereas Roshi was always a "good guy". So it's like he can get away with stuff that Roshi couldn't and still work as a character.

[KBABZ]

Speaking of the BLT dub, I was checking out Episode 12 just there and I find it interesting when Goku is talking to Bulma and Yamcha about how his grandpa Gohan told him to never look at the moon, and when Bulma is asking him about when he died the implication is that "you don't think you could have done it even by accident". I can't remember the redub, I'm guessing it was kept but I find it interesting that the BLT dub didn't try to cover this up like the Z dub did.

It was one of the best points of character development in the Saiyan arc as as Goku was showing introspection and wanting to atone for his past being a father and role model himself by then. Bulma asking Goku is great foreshadowing.

I recall that subtext as well in the Funimation dub. Especially with the close-up on Goku's tail, plus the nervousness of everybody, it definitely added this eerie feeling to the scene as Bulma tries to covertly pry out what happened. Goku is of course as blissfully unaware as ever and that just makes the scene even creepier!

It and the finale to the 21st TB get their proper due in the Kai dub where Goku realizes that it was his fault Gohan is dead and the Tournament grounds were destroyed, which was a great touch.

The scene where Goku "snaps" and turns into the Oozaru is great. That look in his eyes perfectly conveys that "Goku" is gone and no longer has any controls over his own actions.

I wonder what Goku would have done if he had killed the rest of the Gang like his Grandpa? Would it affect him that much emotionally to find them dead? He got over his grandpa's death fairly well...

Oolong is insufferable and I can’t wait to see a little less of him. I watched last weeks batch of episodes with these ones, so I’ll make a comment about some of those episodes.. I couldn’t help but cringe when Pilaf declares how he’s going to do something ‘dirty’ to Bulma and Oolong is loving every second of it. The pay off is somewhat amusing, it’s just a shame what the connotation of it all is. But yeah, it’s funny how Roshi is portrayed as the stereotypical sleaze, yet Oolong drools at the thought of a teenage girl getting raped.

I agree. He's the first "baggage" character for me because all he does is play the strawman skeptic and is barely useful as a shapeshifter, plus he's a pervert which DB already has too much of. Luckily after the 21st TB he's significantly de-emphasized.

[MasenkoHA]

It and the finale to the 21st TB get their proper due in the Kai dub where Goku realizes that it was his fault Gohan is dead and the Tournament grounds were destroyed, which was a great touch.

Iirc the 2005 redub also addressed this. It was only the 96 dub that Funimation pretended that Vegeta did those things even after they had already dubbed the first 13 episodes of Dragon Ball with BLT...

I wonder what Goku would have done if he had killed the rest of the Gang like his Grandpa? Would it affect him that much emotionally to find them dead? He got over his grandpa's death fairly well...

I’m sure he would have gotten over it.

But yeah, it’s funny how Roshi is portrayed as the stereotypical sleaze

I think it’s just more frustrating with Roshi because he’s also suppose to be the wise old mentor. And while the wise old martial arts sage is also a dirty old man could be funny if it was kept to looking at dirty magazines (like Dragon Ball Evolution really..) the fact that it goes to sex offender makes it more troublesome.


Since Oolong is nothing but a lecherous perverted loser there’s not the dissonance.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

The scene where Goku "snaps" and turns into the Oozaru is great. That look in his eyes perfectly conveys that "Goku" is gone and no longer has any controls over his own actions.

Yeah I liked that too. Another thing I noticed going from these episodes into the early 21st Tenkaichi Budokai arc is the flip flopping of characters' position of power. Goku goes from innocent boy to a threatening beast, then by Episode 15 we are introduced to Lunch in her roguish form who following a police chase becomes the vulnerable one when we see her sneeze and revert to her innocent form. Then Goku comes along and turns out the police weren't that tough . Nice little loop of subversions that keep you invested.

[Robo4900]

We'll see if I manage to watch the last two episodes before I open the next thread. Speaking of, I should probably try to actually prepare week 4's OP in advance. I haven't really been doing that.

Anyway, here we go...

Episode 13 - Goku's Great Transformation

Interesting how we start off with something close to the recaps we're used to in Dragon Ball, but without the narrator providing any kind of description of the events. I wonder when the first full-on recap is.

I almost feel sorry for the Pilaf gang. Oozaru Goku is pretty terrifying.
Exhibit #576480 why it's better to start at the actual beginning of the story: You're really introduced to how terrifying and destructive the Oozarus are, which helps evoke a truly horrifying image when you find out how the Saiyans would invade civilised worlds, or how they conquered the Tsufurians, all with the help of the full moon... Kind of brings to mind War Of The Worlds, except the martians win, and in just a few days.

I really love Yamucha in this episode.

Oh hey, a use of the Rogafufuken that doesn't use that piece of stock footage.
Holy shit, him fashioning a sword with it is amazing. Doesn't work, but man that is cool. I'd completely forgotten about that.

Bullets? No effect. A rocket? No effect. Several inches of steel and tempered glass? No effect. A large pair of scissors? Cuts straight through the flesh and bone.
Not criticising, I just find that amusing.

I do like that the destruction of Pilaf castle is ultimately all because of Pilaf's own hubris.
Smart of them to all just bugger off, though.

"But what the heck is he, anyway?! Maybe he's an alien?"
Got it in one, Oolong.

I wonder if they reused the animation of Yamucha and Bulma dancing when they did the first movie.

"Thanks for waiting to the end-- Just kidding, there's still much more to come! [...]"
I imagine this ending was set up such that they could do a narration like this if the show was popular enough to go on, but write and record a different one if they decided to just end it at 13 episodes. Of course, realistically they'd know well in advance of the recording of this episode that the ratings for the first few episodes were dynamite.

Oh hey, I think this NEP might be the first mention of the "Dragon Team" as the collective term for the protagonists.

Not exactly an excellent episode, but it wraps things up nicely. Lots of great character moments, and lots of humour. An honestly pretty fitting end to this first arc.
Probably about here, I'd place it in a ranking of all the arcs so far, but this is the first one, so I guess that'll have to wait. But I'm gonna guess it'll rank somewhere near the middle as we get to the end of the run. It's a lot of fun, it's really funny, the standalones are really strong, and the overall plot progresses very naturally. It's just really solid. But we know how the show evolves from here, and we know it's not quite found its identity yet. It's a fun show, but it's not quite Dragon Ball just yet.

I guess here's as good a time as any to say that the current plan for DB movie 1 is that it'll open week 10, in March, taking the space of that week's first two episodes (since it's 45 minutes long). This places it between episodes 45 and 46.
If anyone has any thoughts on this, please do say.

[ABED]

Thanks for waiting to the end-- Just kidding, there's still much more to come! [...]"
I imagine this ending was set up such that they could do a narration like this if the show was popular enough to go on, but write and record a different one if they decided to just end it at 13 episodes. Of course, realistically they'd know well in advance of the recording of this episode that the ratings for the first few episodes were dynamite.

The manga was far enough along and was already a success so that likely wasn't a consideration here. And if memory serves, I think there was a similar narration in the manga.

[Robo4900]

Thanks for waiting to the end-- Just kidding, there's still much more to come! [...]"
I imagine this ending was set up such that they could do a narration like this if the show was popular enough to go on, but write and record a different one if they decided to just end it at 13 episodes. Of course, realistically they'd know well in advance of the recording of this episode that the ratings for the first few episodes were dynamite.

The manga was far enough along and was already a success so that likely wasn't a consideration here. And if memory serves, I think there was a similar narration in the manga.

Successful manga doesn't always mean successful anime, even if a successful manga would mean they could be very confident in the anime. It's just good business to prepare for it to fail, though. Any number of things can lead something that should work on paper to end up not working out.

[ABED]

Thanks for waiting to the end-- Just kidding, there's still much more to come! [...]"
I imagine this ending was set up such that they could do a narration like this if the show was popular enough to go on, but write and record a different one if they decided to just end it at 13 episodes. Of course, realistically they'd know well in advance of the recording of this episode that the ratings for the first few episodes were dynamite.

The manga was far enough along and was already a success so that likely wasn't a consideration here. And if memory serves, I think there was a similar narration in the manga.

Successful manga doesn't always mean successful anime, even if a successful manga would mean they could be very confident in the anime. It's just good business to prepare for it to fail, though. Any number of things can lead something that should work on paper to end up not working out.

Maybe, but considering the anime feels more like the promotional tool for the manga, I don't think they were covering their bases.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Thanks for waiting to the end-- Just kidding, there's still much more to come! [...]"
I imagine this ending was set up such that they could do a narration like this if the show was popular enough to go on, but write and record a different one if they decided to just end it at 13 episodes. Of course, realistically they'd know well in advance of the recording of this episode that the ratings for the first few episodes were dynamite.

The manga was far enough along and was already a success so that likely wasn't a consideration here. And if memory serves, I think there was a similar narration in the manga.

Successful manga doesn't always mean successful anime, even if a successful manga would mean they could be very confident in the anime. It's just good business to prepare for it to fail, though. Any number of things can lead something that should work on paper to end up not working out.

Dragon Ball lucked out on both fronts when it could have just as easily not, getting just over ten years in serialization and eleven total on weekly TV broadcast. All in all a pretty great run especially in that era when it had many contemporary competitors in the Shonen genre during the course (Saint Seiya, Slam Dunk.etc) but sometimes things strike iron and prove a massive success though the series indeed had a rather slow beginning when first premiering in Shonen Jump in late 1984 it did eventually pick up soon after when Toriyama changed direction with things like the Tenkaichi Budokai based upon the ideas of concepts he had previously done for Dr. Slump. That's when it really took off and the rest is history.

[KBABZ]

Oddly enough I remember WHEN the manga was at the time the anime was first announced and when it first aired: The Oozaru vs Jackie chapter, and the Buyon chapter, respectively.

While Dragon Ball ultimately was popular at the time, you just never know with a TV series so using the original adventure as a sort of "Pilot Arc" was a good move in my opinon.

---

Once thing that just occurred to me is the nature of the first arc's ending. Goku says his goodbyes to Bulma, Yamcha co. and they part ways in the skies, Goku heading forward and his friends West. At that point in the manga, it was up in the air if Goku would ever see them again, and in the anime in particular it almost feels like a goodbye. Goku wouldn't see them again until he arrives at the Tournament grounds!

The irony of course is that the anime would cut back to Bulma and Yamcha no less than three times, which IMO spoils this unique moment in time for Goku.

[MyVisionity]

Once thing that just occurred to me is the nature of the first arc's ending. Goku says his goodbyes to Bulma, Yamcha co. and they part ways in the skies, Goku heading forward and his friends West. At that point in the manga, it was up in the air if Goku would ever see them again, and in the anime in particular it almost feels like a goodbye. Goku wouldn't see them again until he arrives at the Tournament grounds!

Yeah the sense of finality is pretty strong in that episode. Sometimes it makes me wonder how things might have turned out if Toriyama had let go of those characters and had Goku go off on new adventures and meet new characters.

The irony of course is that the anime would cut back to Bulma and Yamcha no less than three times, which IMO spoils this unique moment in time for Goku.

Yeah I feel the anime does this too often as with the pre-22nd Budoukai filler cutting back to everyone constantly and then showing them on the way instead of holding off until they are about to land at the airport. Or with all of the Chichi filler episodes.

[KBABZ]

Once thing that just occurred to me is the nature of the first arc's ending. Goku says his goodbyes to Bulma, Yamcha co. and they part ways in the skies, Goku heading forward and his friends West. At that point in the manga, it was up in the air if Goku would ever see them again, and in the anime in particular it almost feels like a goodbye. Goku wouldn't see them again until he arrives at the Tournament grounds!

Yeah the sense of finality is pretty strong in that episode. Sometimes it makes me wonder how things might have turned out if Toriyama had let go of those characters and had Goku go off on new adventures and meet new characters.

This is jumping ahead a bit, but one of my favourite little moments in the series is when Goku makes his way to Bulma's house in West City. Bulma's happy reaction to seeing him says a lot: that she didn't expect to see him, is glad to see him again, and probably has a sense of pride that Goku managed to find her entirely on his own. He's starting to become independent and make his way in the world on his own, and it's also like old friends meeting again (it's the first time it's been just Goku and Bulma since Episode 2!).

If Bulma hadn't appeared at the 21st TB this would have been an even more powerful reunion!

The irony of course is that the anime would cut back to Bulma and Yamcha no less than three times, which IMO spoils this unique moment in time for Goku.

Yeah I feel the anime does this too often as with the pre-22nd Budoukai filler cutting back to everyone constantly and then showing them on the way instead of holding off until they are about to land at the airport. Or with all of the Chichi filler episodes.

Agreed, I feel this is also the case with the Tournaments as well where they CONSTANTLY cut back to Bulma and Oolong reacting in the crowd, especially in the 22nd TB where they exchange insults and boasts with the Crane Hermit. It persists though: we get a fair few cutovers in the finale to the RRA, Daimao after Goku is seemingly killed, and of course during Namek when Chi-Chi wants to go there on her own. But for the RRA arc especially it's awesome seeing the story follow along entirely from Goku's perspective, we feel with him more than ever in that arc.

[ABED]

Oddly enough I remember WHEN the manga was at the time the anime was first announced and when it first aired: The Oozaru vs Jackie chapter, and the Buyon chapter, respectively.

While Dragon Ball ultimately was popular at the time, you just never know with a TV series so using the original adventure as a sort of "Pilot Arc" was a good move in my opinon.

But do we know that to be the case here?

I understand what you are getting at with the cutaways, but I don't think it spoils anything. We're just following different stories. I personally don't feel any less emotional about seeing Goku catch up with his friends since even though we have spent time with all of them, we haven't spent time with all of them together.

[Robo4900]

Well, here we go. Gonna post the week 4 thread after I've seen these last two episodes.

Episode 14 - Goku's Rival? Appears

Heh, that shot of the deer drinking water may be reused from episode 1. Either way, a nice little throwback.
Goku says he's fetching "A futon and stuff"... I thought he didn't know what a futon was in episode 2.

I remember when I first saw this episode as a kid, I thought Bulma, Yamucha, Oolong, and Pu'er going back to the city was going to be a running B-plot. I was looking forward to seeing it unfold. I still remain a little sad that they didn't keep this going. It would've been nice to have the whole main cast still around for the training story, and the way it ended up, this setup was never paid off at all. It's especially a shame since the little material we see of Bulma and Yamucha is really sweet, and it would've been fun to see a little more. Perhaps could've provided a little setup for Bulma being mad at him for training too much. This is Yamucha's first relationship, so obviously he'd make missteps. Might've been fun to see him make those missteps, and the two deal with that. Though maybe Toei concluded that turning Dragon Ball into Friends wouldn't be the best choice.
Oh well. The training stuff here is honestly some of my favourite material in the entire run. Goku & Kuririn being buddies, Roshi showing his wise mentor side, ridiculous, hilarious training regimes, etc... I love it.

Also, this Kinto Un flying sequence in episode 14 as Goku goes from his house to Roshi's place is great.
And of course, it uses the early NEP theme.

I always thought it'd be fun to try inserting the Sleeping Princess In Devil Castle movie into this part of the show one day. I was actually tempted to try figuring out a way to put that movie right here when I was first figuring out where we're putting the movies (for anyone curious, we'll be putting DB movie 2 between episodes 78 and 79 in the current plan).
Though if one were to insert the Sleeping Princess movie in here, you'd have to deal with the contrast between the 35mm movie footage vs the 16mm series footage, probably you'd have to use optical audio of the movie (unless broadcast audio of episodes 14 & 15 turn up)... Might be troublesome to deal with.

Heh. I like the "Where's Bulma" into a cut to Bulma and the gang. Very smooth, Toei.

... I do like a good chunk of the gag with the mermaid, but there's a lot of this sequence of Goku trying to find a girl for Roshi that I really can't get behind. I actually don't mind the way the dub censored this. Sort of makes it a lot more palatable.

I agree 100% with KBABZ that the piece Kikuchi composed for Kuririn's entrance in the movie was perfect, and really takes that moment a step above the way it's done in the series.

Roshi: "No, I'm just normally bald." - A pretty funny undercutting of Kuririn's whole point. But there's a far funnier version of this line. Not from Funi's dub of this episode, not from their dub of the Sleeping Princess movie... Apparently, in the Big Green dub of the movie, the line here is along the lines of "No, I suddenly went bald at five, no one knows why."

Episode 15 - The Peculiar Girl, Lunch

Ahh, the saloon scene. I know this is filler, but I love it. For anyone curious, this is the song that plays in that sequence. Probably if I'd thought this over, I'd have added that to the trivia section for this week.

I love Lunch. In her blue-haired form, she's a sweetheart. Sort of like a kind older sister/aunt to Goku and Kuririn. Delightful. And in her blonde-haired form, she's a hilarious moustache-twirling villain.

Interesting that we get an insight into young Kuririn... Particularly, perhaps another explanation for why he can't ride the Kinto Un -- he suggests to just "Let sleeping dogs lie"... To let the girl in trouble calling for help get, as far as they were concerned, attacked by some guys with guns.
He's clearly not a good person, at least not yet.
I like to think he can ride the Kinto Un later on, but I do wonder at what point he crossed the threshold of being able to.

Roshi summed up in one frame:


On the plus side, how kind of them to provide lodging for Lunch. Clearly, she's having troubles if she'd accept an invitation to live on the island with them, and clearly she's very grateful to them for inviting her to live there for as long as she likes. Roshi even offers to give her some form of training. Perhaps self-defence type stuff?
On the downside... Roshi's antics make this situation very uncomfortable. >_<
If we could just not have certain things he says, maybe also cut out him having her dress in underwear, presumably to do some form of perverse "exercise"...? Ugh. Goddammit.

A great pair of episodes, aside from some of Roshi's more uncomfortable antics (which covers a good bit of his "get me a girl!!" and a lot of what happens on the island once Lunch is there).

I'll post week 4's thread in just a few minutes, I think. Maybe half an hour. We'll see.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Episode 11 - At Long Last, the Dragon Appears!

Slow enough episode, but entertaining enough in a Saturday morning cartoon way. We see some subversion with our heroes being trapped, and hypnotized only for Pilaf to also be hypnotized. Bulma steals the show, demonstrating leadership qualities, being the first to notice the Dragon Ball being lost. Goku's early attempts at the Kamehameha is also fun to see.

Episode 12 - The Wish to Shen Long

Great character usage the whole way through. Puar and Oolong's metamorphis abilities are put to good use, Goku's Kamehameha attempts are admirable. We also get more good subversion and irony with Oolong saving the day interrupting Pilaf with a wish for underwear.
Goku's transformation into a Great Ape is another great cliffhanger

Episode 13 - Goku’s Great Transformation

Wonderful subversive ending to this arc with Oozaru Goku's rampage. Bulma and Yamcha show development being able to work together. Nice to see Yamcha getting his time to shine by helping to stop Goku. Once Goku's tail is cut off this first arc is brought to a satisfying conclusion.

Episode 14 - Goku’s Rival? Arrival!!

Nice downtime with all our characters after the rollercoaster ride of a first big adventure. We see Goku's carefree side having fun on Kintoun as he flies to Kame House. Plenty of great comedy with Goku and Roshi, particularly him trying to teach Goku what an attractive lady is, and still not knowing what he wants. In the desert we see more grounded characterization as a contrast, particularly Yamcha's softer side caring for Bulma.

Episode 15 - The Peculiar Girl, Lunch

Goku and Krilin's relationship develops quickly with the cameradery shown when the former lets him ride the Kintoun. There's some fun to be had with the police chase scene, and the debut of Lunch who is a different type of female character than we've seen up to this point. We see the classic double subversion again with Lunch's sneeze reverting her back to her innocent form and Goku easily beating the police. Lunch being unsure what she did has its own humorous charm too.

[KBABZ]

Goku says he's fetching "A futon and stuff"... I thought he didn't know what a futon was in episode 2.

I figure that this is part of Goku's learning about the world thanks to his friends and adventures, where by this point Goku has learnt what a futon is. Maybe he figured the one at his grandpa's hut was useless?

For anyone curious, this is the song that plays in that sequence. Probably if I'd thought this over, I'd have added that to the trivia section for this week.

I found this track!

[Robo4900]

For anyone curious, this is the song that plays in that sequence. Probably if I'd thought this over, I'd have added that to the trivia section for this week.

I found this track!

Really? :O

I knew someone found it, but I never realised it was you. Nice.

I figure that this is part of Goku's learning about the world thanks to his friends and adventures, where by this point Goku has learnt what a futon is. Maybe he figured the one at his grandpa's hut was useless?

But the context is "I'm gonna fetch a futon from my/grandpa's hut."

[KBABZ]

For anyone curious, this is the song that plays in that sequence. Probably if I'd thought this over, I'd have added that to the trivia section for this week.

I found this track!

Really? :O

I knew someone found it, but I never realised it was you. Nice.

It was a really clever trick: I uploaded it to YouTube with the intent of getting a copyright strike, because that tells you exactly what the track is! It helped for some of the obscure licensed tracks for my Ratchet & Clank soundtracks.

I figure that this is part of Goku's learning about the world thanks to his friends and adventures, where by this point Goku has learnt what a futon is. Maybe he figured the one at his grandpa's hut was useless?

But the context is "I'm gonna fetch a futon from my/grandpa's hut."

Yes, and I'm saying that by this point in the story Goku's learnt (likely from Bulma) exactly what a futon is and what it's for.

[Robo4900]

It was a really clever trick: I uploaded it to YouTube with the intent of getting a copyright strike, because that tells you exactly what the track is!

Hah! That's very clever.

It helped for some of the obscure licensed tracks for my Ratchet & Clank soundtracks.

Wait, those were you too? Damn, you're everywhere!

Yes, and I'm saying that by this point in the story Goku's learnt (likely from Bulma) exactly what a futon is and what it's for.

Ah.

[KBABZ]

It helped for some of the obscure licensed tracks for my Ratchet & Clank soundtracks.

Wait, those were you too? Damn, you're everywhere!

The ones on ffshrine? Yup, that's me!