"DragonBall GT" Answer Thread

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:41 am

There's no absolute answer, because all Super Saiyan transformation multipliers are open to interpretation, but I think the jump from Level 3 to Level 4 is about 2 or 3 fold. Maybe higher. Probably not as great as the jump from Level 1 to Level 2 or Level 2 to Level 3.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:38 am

Well, it's implied that SSj4 was much stronger than anything previous. Goku was practically helpless against Babi-Vegeta at SSj3 (child-sized effectiveness issues aside) but with SSj4, the tables weren't just turned; they were freakin' flipped over and tossed away. I mean, Babi's punches tickled Goku, for Pete's sake. That's got to say something.

The problem is that it just ended up looking so weak later on in GT. Not just because the enemies got stronger, but because, well, it was shown looking weak. (What the hell was SSj4 Vegeta supposed to be doing? At one point it looked like he was shooting superballs at Li Xing Long)

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:18 pm

Should the child size issue even matter? There were countless heroes who were children and did better than "adults" (i.e. Cell Games Gohan, Gotenks, DRAGONBALL GOKU)... GT makes it seem that Goku lost power when he became a child again.. GT also makes it seem movies go with the story too..

-Rick

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:35 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:Should the child size issue even matter? There were countless heroes who were children and did better than "adults" (i.e. Cell Games Gohan, Gotenks, DRAGONBALL GOKU)... GT makes it seem that Goku lost power when he became a child again.. GT also makes it seem movies go with the story too..
-Rick

Supports my point even more. But I'm pretty sure it was only an issue with SSj3. Gotenks' being a fusion is probably the best explanation to why it didn't bother him.

aarondirebear · Post by **aarondirebear** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:10 pm

Duo wrote:There's no absolute answer, because all Super Saiyan transformation multipliers are open to interpretation, but I think the jump from Level 3 to Level 4 is about 2 or 3 fold. Maybe higher. Probably not as great as the jump from Level 1 to Level 2 or Level 2 to Level 3.

"Saiya-jin can not be reduced to numbers"--Vejita, shortly before obliterating Jinzoningen Juukyuugou.

Every time you try to mathematically figure out how much a Saiya-jin's powers increases when he transforms into SSJ, god kills a catgirl.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:44 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Well, it's implied that SSj4 was much stronger than anything previous. Goku was practically helpless against Babi-Vegeta at SSj3 (child-sized effectiveness issues aside) but with SSj4, the tables weren't just turned; they were freakin' flipped over and tossed away. I mean, Babi's punches tickled Goku, for Pete's sake. That's got to say something.

The problem is that it just ended up looking so weak later on in GT. Not just because the enemies got stronger, but because, well, it was shown looking weak. (What the hell was SSj4 Vegeta supposed to be doing? At one point it looked like he was shooting superballs at Li Xing Long)

YES, I agree with you about that.
Vegeta SSJ4 looks so very weak when he just throws Ki balls at Yi Xing Long.
But when Goku fought Bebi he looked so strong. Also Super 17 beating down Goku did not help much.
When Goku lost to Janemba SSJ3 in Movie 12 , it actually looked as if he was still very strong (his kicks looked so strong when Janemba block them)
But still there are moments when Goku looks strong (like when he attacks Super Yi Xing Long when he first transforms)

But I would think that SSJ4 to SSJ3 is not too different.

But question is: Is SSJ4 exactly as strong as when he is Golden Oozaru? or is SSJ4 a weaker but controlled state?

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:25 pm

I can see there are not many fans of this thread

Maybe a new topic would help things out.

tainted saiyan · Post by **tainted saiyan** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:12 pm

OK, if Bebi was able to reach golden oozaru and control himself, why couldn't he go SSJ4?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:31 pm

tainted saiyan wrote:OK, if Bebi was able to reach golden oozaru and control himself, why couldn't he go SSJ4?

He wasn't a pure Saiyan. Only pure Saiyans can go SSj4.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:00 pm

Rocketman wrote:
tainted saiyan wrote:OK, if Bebi was able to reach golden oozaru and control himself, why couldn't he go SSJ4?
He wasn't a pure Saiyan. Only pure Saiyans can go SSj4.

That's one way of it working, I guess. In addition to that, I always figured that reaching SSj4 from Gold Ozaru was accomplished by the Saiyan gaining control over himself. Since it wasn't Vegeta in control, but rather Babi using his body and power like a puppet, that kept any of that kind of connection from happening.

It's a good thing, too. Goku couldn't have beaten an SSj4 Babi-Vegeta

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:26 pm

this is funny because it is maybe the only plot error that Dragon ball GT talks about and fixes later in the anime. Even if it isnt a great explanation lol. They pretty much say: "Why could Bebi not go SSJ4?"
"Well...I guess because he wasnt a Saiyan...or something" (they just ignore it even in the explanation)

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:07 am

I was thinking of maybe the biggest and only REAL unexplained error in Dragon ball GT the other day when i saw it playing on a television.

When Vegeta turns back from SSJ4 to regular size:
1) Why does his old clothes return?
2) Where did his tail go?
3) Why is there no hole in his pants when he returns?
Any theory about SSJ4 was a little useless after that moment. The only theory that works is to think that SSJ4 is kind of like a "1 person fusion" into a new super-person.

I have heard many ideas: "Vegeta's tail was kept in his pants" (this was the bigger error of all, his tail should not have disapeared). This means that Vegeta still could go SSJ4 after GT ended.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:12 am

Because, quite frankly, Vegeta's going SSj4 at all was mearly a half-assed step towards SSj4 Gogeta. Which, despite the potential awesomeness on both counts, wasn't very good, either.

For a decent explanation, though you might imagine that Vegeta's SSj4 transformation was somehow... "incomplete," for lack of a better word? He did sort of "cheat" to get it, after all.

This thread just spurs me to do well on my Rewrite fanfiction more and more.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:37 am

hehe I agree about that it was just a lazy try to get Vegeta at SSJ4 (sell more toys) and then get fusion into the story.
But for argument sake, because it was never explained.

Just like fans believe that Cyborg 17 should be alive (after what was shown in that 1 second of Dragon ball Z with the gun (filler but in the anime story), and by what Goku said to Cyborg 18 in dragon ball GT)
- Or that Radditz could be on earth, but it is a doubt that he became good and made a life for himself.

But do you think Vegeta kept his tail, because even if his clothes grew back (which was very stupid), how can he lose his tail? Even for dragon ball its not possible.

ps.
I found an error a long time ago that I just remembered. When all the villains from all 3 dragon ball shows are in heaven again, they show Captain Ginyu with the other members, but he was supposed to be a frog by that time.

Well, I bet you can say that he was killed when Buu blew the planet and his spirit went to hell in it's real version, but it's a funny error anyways. hehe

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:57 am

Just like fans believe that Cyborg 17 should be alive (after what was shown in that 1 second of Dragon ball Z with the gun (filler but in the anime story), and by what Goku said to Cyborg 18 in dragon ball GT)

Huh... #17 is shown alive in the Dragon Ball Z manga, giving energy to the Genki Dama.

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:53 pm

I know, what i meant was that many fans have made theories about what happens to cyborg 17 in dragon ball GT.
For example, If shenron allowed Goku his last wish at the end of the series and gave the good people their lives back, then Cyborg 17 should be alive (it was shown that he was not in control of himself when he was super 17).

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:57 am

hello all. I'm writting this here so we dont have to open a new thread. But I finally realized why so many people dont think Dragon ball GT is a "real" continuation to the story.
I have been watching Dragon ball Z and Dragon ball GT after i bought the entire series 1 month ago and 1 thing came to my mind about how Dragon ball and Dragon ball Z were written.

The main reason why GT is hated is because it is not necessary. It is like making an extra book after Lord of the Rings for money. Even if Dragon ball GT has some good parts, the end in the MAjin Buu saga was the climax of the entire story from the start of the first episode of dragon ball: It ended the story between Goku and Vegeta, it gave the Saiyans "peace" (cant find the word in english: like repentance), and brought all the elements and themes that had been happening in the entire legacy of the manga/anime.

But I was watching dragon ball GT again after a long time and i found 2 things: 1- It does not have Akira Toriyama's incredible skill of making the narrative exciting (good pace, good organization of characters, good story telling by keeping you interested in the next chapter).

and 2- (most important)- It didnt have a point to be made. I can understand if TOEI made it to finish a story that did not get finished in "Z". For example all the sagas in "Z" have a point. Cell saga eventually was about Gohan taking Goku's place (which was the main idea of "Z" until the Buu saga). And the Buu saga finally gave the saiyan destiny and finished the amazing Goku/Vegeta story.

But what do we have in "GT"? We have the Tsufrurians come back again and after Bebi dies, nothing is changed and the original dragon ball themes are ignored.
- What was the point of bringing back all the dragon ball villains in the Super 17 saga for them to be killed? It was just action but nothing changed (very much like: Garlic junior story). The narrative/way of writting is completely different than what Akira Toriyama would have done.

Akira Toriyama never threw away characters that he made important in the last saga. For example:
Saiyan saga- Vegeta
Namek saga- Goku as SSJ (imagine if in Cell saga, Goku "forgot" about SSJ and they made the series about Yamcha)
Buu Saga- Gohan as full potential and Uub (who are forgotten in Dragon ball GT for no reason).

If Akira Toriyama would have continued the saga, he would have made Gohan and Uub the main part of the new show and found a new theme to explore and not just jokes about Vegeta not shaving.

Another difference is that the mangas were draw very well in that you could "feel" and understand how SSJ3 was much more than SSJ1. But again, SSJ4 feels so week in Dragon ball GT, it doesnt have the Toriyama touch.

I was very surprised after watching Dragon ball GT again, I never remembered how bad the "Dragon saga" really was. It was 9 episodes of things like: "Oh not now he is stronger!!!", "Oh now I am stronger!!!!", "Oh now Vegeta is here!!!!", "Oh, now he is stronger again!!!!" with very bad animation.

I very much admired the Buu saga again as it had so many things going on to push the story and interest. I loved how during the preperation for Gotenks vs. Buu, there was about 5 important things going on at the same time that fit the story perfectly and left you guessing : "what was going to happen next?" . Not just: "Dragon vs. Goku and Vegeta, who will win?" (nothing else to think about: which is why the Bebi saga has a few good parts when you wait to see what will happen if Goku was to come back with his tail)

Akira Toriyama is a genious story teller, I have never been more convinced in all my life.

PS- Please excuse some grammar errors.

Lavender Saiyan · Post by **Lavender Saiyan** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:08 am

I just wanna step in about the whole "No SSJ2 in GT" thing. IDK if anyone mentioned this, but I wanna point out that Vegeta did infact power up once & have some sparks in his aura. It was against Omega Shenron. I've always thought Toei was just lazy with the lightning & that both Gohan & Vegeta were SSJ2 due to the appearnce of their extra spiked hair. Yeah, I know it contradicts Toriyama, but hell, it's GT. When it comes to Z, I don't accept any theories about SSJ2 with no lightning (like Dabura). But in GT, meh.

Daizensushi-x · Post by **Daizensushi-x** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:07 am

Aoi wrote:hello all. I'm writting this here so we dont have to open a new thread. But I finally realized why so many people dont think Dragon ball GT is a "real" continuation to the story.
I have been watching Dragon ball Z and Dragon ball GT after i bought the entire series 1 month ago and 1 thing came to my mind about how Dragon ball and Dragon ball Z were written.

The main reason why GT is hated is because it is not necessary. It is like making an extra book after Lord of the Rings for money. Even if Dragon ball GT has some good parts, the end in the MAjin Buu saga was the climax of the entire story from the start of the first episode of dragon ball: It ended the story between Goku and Vegeta, it gave the Saiyans "peace" (cant find the word in english: like repentance), and brought all the elements and themes that had been happening in the entire legacy of the manga/anime.

But I was watching dragon ball GT again after a long time and i found 2 things: 1- It does not have Akira Toriyama's incredible skill of making the narrative exciting (good pace, good organization of characters, good story telling by keeping you interested in the next chapter).

and 2- (most important)- It didnt have a point to be made. I can understand if TOEI made it to finish a story that did not get finished in "Z". For example all the sagas in "Z" have a point. Cell saga eventually was about Gohan taking Goku's place (which was the main idea of "Z" until the Buu saga). And the Buu saga finally gave the saiyan destiny and finished the amazing Goku/Vegeta story.

But what do we have in "GT"? We have the Tsufrurians come back again and after Bebi dies, nothing is changed and the original dragon ball themes are ignored.
- What was the point of bringing back all the dragon ball villains in the Super 17 saga for them to be killed? It was just action but nothing changed (very much like: Garlic junior story). The narrative/way of writting is completely different than what Akira Toriyama would have done.

Akira Toriyama never threw away characters that he made important in the last saga. For example:
Saiyan saga- Vegeta
Namek saga- Goku as SSJ (imagine if in Cell saga, Goku "forgot" about SSJ and they made the series about Yamcha)
Buu Saga- Gohan as full potential and Uub (who are forgotten in Dragon ball GT for no reason).

If Akira Toriyama would have continued the saga, he would have made Gohan and Uub the main part of the new show and found a new theme to explore and not just jokes about Vegeta not shaving.

Another difference is that the mangas were draw very well in that you could "feel" and understand how SSJ3 was much more than SSJ1. But again, SSJ4 feels so week in Dragon ball GT, it doesnt have the Toriyama touch.

I was very surprised after watching Dragon ball GT again, I never remembered how bad the "Dragon saga" really was. It was 9 episodes of things like: "Oh not now he is stronger!!!", "Oh now I am stronger!!!!", "Oh now Vegeta is here!!!!", "Oh, now he is stronger again!!!!" with very bad animation.

I very much admired the Buu saga again as it had so many things going on to push the story and interest. I loved how during the preperation for Gotenks vs. Buu, there was about 5 important things going on at the same time that fit the story perfectly and left you guessing : "what was going to happen next?" . Not just: "Dragon vs. Goku and Vegeta, who will win?" (nothing else to think about: which is why the Bebi saga has a few good parts when you wait to see what will happen if Goku was to come back with his tail)

Akira Toriyama is a genious story teller, I have never been more convinced in all my life.

PS- Please excuse some grammar errors.

Probably like many others, I agree completely.

Steven Perry · Post by **Steven Perry** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:13 am

Aoi wrote: Another difference is that the mangas were draw very well in that you could "feel" and understand how SSJ3 was much more than SSJ1. But again, SSJ4 feels so week in Dragon ball GT, it doesnt have the Toriyama touch.

The 'Toriyama touch'. I like that.

And yes, I sometimes feel as if I could kick the sh*t out of SS4 Goku.

Dragonball Z has a brilliant sense of coherence, with expert story-telling that leaves you on the edge of your seat. GT, however, is just a multi-coloured slideshow of flashing shit. I'll only watch it if I'm drunk.

And I'm never drunk.