Do you think SSJ Blue and Beyond should never have been introduced?

[Tai Lung]

What I don't like is how Vegeta obtained SSJB as opposed to learning SSJG beforehand.

He didn't. There is no Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan without first acquiring Super Saiyan God/God ki. When we first see Vegeta going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, he obviously already had Super Saiyan God.

there is no difference in that ...
if vegeta gets the SSBE he also gets the SSG since the SSB is got with the correct use of the God KI

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yes, apparently his first contact with God Ki was within Whis' staff but we don't know if he left there already with SSB

It should be the case, though. You don't actually need the transformation itself, you need to retain in your body the power that form provides. If Vegeta got god power inside the staff, then he should be able to stack it with the Super Saiyan. Effectively skipping Super Saiyan God. Which also establishes that the Super Saiyan God form can only be achieved through the ritual, and Whis staff be an alternative way/source to attain god power/ki itself, not the transformation.

Goku also mentions that Vegeta obtained the power of the SSG on his own, so I doubt that he literally skipped that form, theoretically it wouldn't be possible.

If what I said above is true and expanding it a little more, then it is possible the impossibility for Vegeta to transform into Super Saiyan God. As it seems, the Super Saiyan God transformation and the capacity to absorb its power are two separated things. Just because you have god power/ki (especially when you got it in a different way) doesn't necessarily mean you will be able to transform into Super Saiyan God, you didn't do the ritual (and this may or may not be connected with the pure heart thing, I just had a theory right now but I'll leave it for another discussion if you aren't interested). Which is why I think if Vegeta ever transforms into Super Saiyan God in the anime, it won't make much sense.

In my view, if Vegeta was able to obtain the power of the Super Saiyan God, then he is able to use this Ki to manifest the transformation, even though he obtained it through training and not ritual

The SSG is just a way of giving the Saiyans access to God Ki, so once Vegeta has obtained this power, I believe he is able to use that form.

Btw, there's a Broly movie pamphlet that suggests that Vegeta got the God form through training

Spoiler:

"Using the ki of the gods gained from training with the Hakaishin and Whis, Vegeta achieves a superior evolution. He cloaks himself in a red aura to reach the realm of the gods in this miraculous transformation!!”

[Grimlock]

In my view, if Vegeta was able to obtain the power of the Super Saiyan God, then he is able to use this Ki to manifest the transformation, even though he obtained it through training and not ritual

The SSG is just a way of giving the Saiyans access to God Ki, so once Vegeta has obtained this power, I believe he is able to use that form.

I understand. But again, if they are separated, then it is possible what I said. It's not like Super Saiyan forms and their powers. You can't use the power of Super Saiyan 2 in base form, because as far as we know, the Super Saiyan forms' powers cannot be absorbed. You will only have the power of Super Saiyan 2 (i.e have your power multiplied by 100) if you transform into said form.

This is where I come from in regards to Super Saiyan God and its power, they aren't technically connected. In this sense, Super Saiyan God is just a door in which you enter, take what's in it and leave. See the diference? Once you leave it, you can't access the transformation itself unless you performed the ritual (here it's just a way to explain why Goku can transform into Super Saiyan God, because, out-universe speaking, if you can use the power of a form without having to transform, it makes the form useless. As Toriyama said, Super Saiyan God wouldn't return precisely because of that, but they have to sell merchandising, so...).

As far as we can tell, what triggers the transformation itself is the ritual, that's what happened with the original Super Saiyan God, and that's what happened with Goku. Vegeta got god power via another way, so I would really like to know how you would explain his ability to transform into Super Saiyan God, since no ritual was done and the power is disconnected from the form itself.

Btw, there's a Broly movie pamphlet that suggests that Vegeta got the God form through training

Spoiler:

"Using the ki of the gods gained from training with the Hakaishin and Whis, Vegeta achieves a superior evolution. He cloaks himself in a red aura to reach the realm of the gods in this miraculous transformation!!”

Isn't there one where they state Broly's power level or something? Probably confusing images, but anyway, it's not like we should take into consideration every promotional statement into consideration.

[TheSaiyanGod]

In my view, if Vegeta was able to obtain the power of the Super Saiyan God, then he is able to use this Ki to manifest the transformation, even though he obtained it through training and not ritual

The SSG is just a way of giving the Saiyans access to God Ki, so once Vegeta has obtained this power, I believe he is able to use that form.

I understand. But again, if they are separated, then it is possible what I said. It's not like Super Saiyan forms and their powers. You can't use the power of Super Saiyan 2 in base form, because as far as we know, the Super Saiyan forms' powers cannot be absorbed. You will only have the power of Super Saiyan 2 (i.e have your power multiplied by 100) if you transform into said form.

This is where I come from in regards to Super Saiyan God and its power, they aren't technically connected. In this sense, Super Saiyan God is just a door in which you enter, take what's in it and leave. See the diference? Once you leave it, you can't access the transformation itself unless you performed the ritual (here it's just a way to explain why Goku can transform into Super Saiyan God, because, out-universe speaking, if you can use the power of a form without having to transform, it makes the form useless. As Toriyama said, Super Saiyan God wouldn't return precisely because of that, but they have to sell merchandising, so...).

As far as we can tell, what triggers the transformation itself is the ritual, that's what happened with the original Super Saiyan God, and that's what happened with Goku. Vegeta got god power via another way, so I would really like to know how you would explain his ability to transform into Super Saiyan God, since no ritual was done and the power is disconnected from the form itself.

Perhaps that was the initial intention considering that in BoG, Goku retains the power of the SSG but is not able to use the transformation again. But with DBS and now with the Broly movie showing Vegeta being able to access the God form despite having obtained this power through training, this is probably no longer the case, especially as Toriyama adopted SSG Vegeta on his own continuity (confirming that God form can be obtained through training)

In the current circumstances, my explanation is that although SSG and God Ki are not mutually connected, Vegeta can probably simply '' activate '' this different type of Ki he has, and this will naturally cause a transformation in his body (Super Saiyan God)

Btw, there's a Broly movie pamphlet that suggests that Vegeta got the God form through training

Spoiler:

"Using the ki of the gods gained from training with the Hakaishin and Whis, Vegeta achieves a superior evolution. He cloaks himself in a red aura to reach the realm of the gods in this miraculous transformation!!”

Isn't there one where they state Broly's power level or something? Probably confusing images, but anyway, it's not like we should take into consideration every promotional statement into consideration.

It is just an example to show what is probably being taken into account in the continuity of the Broly movie. Although even without this pamphlet, the introduction of SSG Vegeta in the Toriyama canon indirectly confirms that he simply obtained this form during the training with Whis

[Mister_Popo]

Maybe Blue was introduced too fast, one might say, but that was a mere result of the movies being not the intend of a larger project to begin with. I can understand they wanted to introduce something different than Red, two years after BOG. Once Blue was introduced though, SSG shouldn't have been reintroduced in order to keep things logical.

There is no direct in-universe explaination for the return of SSG.
It shouldn't have been necessary in theory, if you see the first two movies.
Those movies had the label 'DBZ', as the decision to make a new Super-series only came after Movie 15.
In movie 15 Godkus and Vegetas baseforms were already incredibly strong through Whis training, they basically didn't need any transformation besides Blue.
The Blue-form was the representation of tapping into God-ki without the ritual.

The classic SSJ-forms and later SSG basically returned because of marketing reasons.
But the seed stories as laid in the movies could have left us with Red tapping into God-ki by ritual and Blue tapping into God-ki by divine training.
Later on this was simply retconned during Super (but too late, as the first two arc-adaptations didn't seem to indicate this retcon yet) and it caused a lot of confusion within the fandom.

SSJBE is basically just a lastminute power-up to keep Vegeta somehow relevant at the ending of TOP against Toppo and Jiren.
They wanted UI to stay as something Goku-exclusive (Moro arc seems to confirm this for the time being), and therefore gave him a rather inspireless SSJB 2-type transformation in order 'to keep up at least with Blue Kaioken 20 times'. It was basically just there because Vegeta staying stuck in casual Blue while Goku achieving Completed UI simply 'wasn't done'.

[Grimlock]

But with DBS and now with the Broly movie showing Vegeta being able to access the God form despite having obtained this power through training, this is probably no longer the case, especially as Toriyama adopted SSG Vegeta on his own continuity (confirming that God form can be obtained through training)

You are mixing continuities here. Going solely by the movies, you can't say Vegeta got Super Saiyan God through training. As I posted, there is only one word about it and it is the ritual method. Dragon Ball Super: Broly also doesn't even imply anything.

the introduction of SSG Vegeta in the Toriyama canon indirectly confirms that he simply obtained this form during the training with Whis

How so?

[Shinsa]

There needs to be a limit and a bar that characters can reach and not constantly surpassing it left right and center.

You can't really do that with a series that is now being written to go on forever. Toriyama said one of the reasons he ended DB was because he didn't think Goku could get stronger in a logical way, and when you look at something as bad as "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan", he had a point.

That is so true....and sad

[WittyUsername]

I don’t care for Super Saiyan Blue Evolved, or whatever it’s called, but I’ve gotten pretty used to Super Saiyan Blue. I mostly just find the constant reliance on it in the anime to be somewhat tiresome.

[TheSaiyanGod]

But with DBS and now with the Broly movie showing Vegeta being able to access the God form despite having obtained this power through training, this is probably no longer the case, especially as Toriyama adopted SSG Vegeta on his own continuity (confirming that God form can be obtained through training)

You are mixing continuities here. Going solely by the movies, you can't say Vegeta got Super Saiyan God through training. As I posted, there is only one word about it and it is the ritual method. Dragon Ball Super: Broly also doesn't even imply anything.

Maybe, but several things happened in the gap between RoF and Broly. SSG Vegeta wasn't even a thing for Toriyama until the Future Trunks saga in the manga.

If he changed his own continuity to introduce something he hadn't thought of, I don't believe that we should follow strictly everything that was said in BoG and RoF (for example, we know that "two Super Saiyans Blue can defeat Beerus" no longer exists). The ritual might have been Vegeta's intention in the BoG, but that was before he trained with Whis and knew he could get that power in other ways

The conclusion is that after everything that happened in Broly, Vegeta did obtain the Super Saiyan God before transforming into SSB

[Grimlock]

SSG Vegeta wasn't even a thing for Toriyama until the Future Trunks saga in the manga.

We don't know that. Maybe Toriyama thought it wasn't necessary to depict the same thing with Vegeta. Let's keep in mind that there have been two mentions to Tarble now. Both Movie 14 and Dragon Ball Super Broly expects you to have watched an OVA that is still exclusively to the Japanese audience. This may seem a case where Toriyama expects you to think that the ritual happened off-screen and just showed the results. So it's not an uncommon thing to imagine what may have happened and for the audience to fill in the gaps.

If he changed his own continuity to introduce something he hadn't thought of, I don't believe that we should follow strictly everything that was said in BoG and RoF

I don't know what you mean by "changed his own continuity". I mean, it's not like the anime predates the movies or that Toriyama was involved with the retellings to make such change.

I understand the problem of following strictly something that is kind of vague, but it just gets even more messy when we take into consideration outside sources with different interpretations. If only the image you posted was a Toriyama's statement, it would solve this. But it ain't. It's merely a supplemental information that contradicts what the movie establishes. And since we don't have any confirmation of Toriyama's involvement with the retellings, the concept/method of achieving Super Saiyan God through training couid be entirely Toei's.

[experted_luke]

I want to see Dragon Ball Super based more on technique and skill, rather than relying on a power-up to do you good. For example, in the Tournament of Power, goku had MUI. Now, in my opinion, it just seemed like MUI was guiding him rather than Goku's own strength vs Jiren. My point being, that the transformations need to stop and people need to use their own skill and technique to win. At the beginning of the Tournament of Power, it was already evident that Universe 7 would win, but the deciding factor was HOW they would win. An asspull of a transformation (in my opinion) shouldn't have decided it.

So yes, I think Super could've done without Super Saiyan Blue, and have Goku and Vegeta guided by their own strengths and will, as well as honing their own spirits.

[TheSaiyanGod]

SSG Vegeta wasn't even a thing for Toriyama until the Future Trunks saga in the manga.

We don't know that. Maybe Toriyama thought it wasn't necessary to depict the same thing with Vegeta. Let's keep in mind that there have been two mentions to Tarble now. Both Movie 14 and Dragon Ball Super Broly expects you to have watched an OVA that is still exclusively to the Japanese audience. This may seem a case where Toriyama expects you to think that the ritual happened off-screen and just showed the results. So it's not an uncommon thing to imagine what may have happened and for the audience to fill in the gaps.

If he changed his own continuity to introduce something he hadn't thought of, I don't believe that we should follow strictly everything that was said in BoG and RoF

I don't know what you mean by "changed his own continuity". I mean, it's not like the anime predates the movies or that Toriyama was involved with the retellings to make such change.

In an interview with Toyotaro and Toriyama in volume 4 of the manga, Toriyama says that the appearance of SSG Vegeta was Toyotaro's idea and that he oversaw it. So he probably never thought about the existence of SSG Vegeta or at least he didn't bother giving this transformation to him. Then things changed for Toriyama to introduce SSG Vegeta in his own continuity. That is why I am saying that the events of the BoG movie should not be strictly followed, and that is why we cannot say that Vegeta performed the ritual in the continuity of the movies.

[Grimlock]

The keyword here is "appearance". That line is kind of ambiguous. Sure, Super Saiyan God Vegeta first appeared in the manga but that may be about it. The idea to show to the readers Vegeta in such form was Toyotaro's idea, not the whole concept. It's kinda illogical to think no one ever imagined Vegeta with such transformation, especially after seeing him going Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in Movie 15. That line may imply that if we were to wait for Toriyama, we would probably never see Vegeta with Super Saiyan God, which is why Toyotaro is the one being credited here.
The same would be for Super Saiyan 3, if Toyotaro ever shows Vegeta with this form, it would be his idea, but hardly one that has never crossed anyone's mind before.

And then there is his appearance in Dragon Ball Super Broly, which may or may not have been influenced by Toyotaro. Well, this movie shows Broly with a form not originally planned, seemingly Broly's strongest form was supposed to be Super Saiyan, but someone else had the "brilliant" idea to rip off that old transformation. Which makes possible that Super Saiyan God Vegeta may have been suggested by someone in the movie staff, not Toyotaro. I'll refrain myself from commenting about it too much because, unlike the other two movies, this one didn't get a lot of interviews, so we don't know how things really went.

[Mister_Popo]

We don't have an 100 % official explaination for the anime nor the movies continiuty for Vegeta to take that form.
But in my opinion it's not logical to assume it's the ritual:

1. The effect of the ritual is only temporar, as Goku lost it when fighting Beerus. So there is no proof whatsoever the ritual can again gain access to SSG during TOP and Broly arcs, not like it did during BOG with immediate effect just before fighting Beerus, as it worn down when fighting Beerus as well.
2. What other reason could there be as it's not the ritual? Whis taught both Goku and Vegeta God-Ki during ROF. It was their key to Blue. But Blue is a superior form that relies on the same principle as Red (God-Ki). It wouldn't be more than normal / logical in my opinion if they had learned SSG during the same training as they did when learning Blue.

The ritual being the reason why Vegeta used SSG during Broly just seems very very weird to me.

[emperior]

Introducing Blue was a mistake because it needlessly complicated things. It also happened out of nowhere with absolutely no build up.

That said, if Blue has to stay its evolutions definitely don’t which is why I was pleased to see how Toriyama’s movie ignored Blue Evolution and Blue Kaioken.

[GodVegetto91]

Introducing Blue was a mistake because it needlessly complicated things. It also happened out of nowhere with absolutely no build up.

That said, if Blue has to stay its evolutions definitely don’t which is why I was pleased to see how Toriyama’s movie ignored Blue Evolution and Blue Kaioken.

They fucked up the moment SSJ Blue got introduced during Resurrection F. So Blue Evo & Blue Kaioken are welcome now. Since it’s already fucked up. They should’ve just focused on Goku and Vegeta mastering SSJ God (with Vegeta obtaining it by himself under Whis) and then simply use that form for the rest of their lives. Until Spirit Control and Ultra Instinct become a thing ofcourse. Since these two concepts ARE part of their story and evolution. It was both foreshadowed. In Vegeta’s case it was Whis who told Vegeta to learn to control his ki if he wants to surpass Goku in episode 16 of Super.

[Matches Malone]

Introducing Blue was a mistake because it needlessly complicated things. It also happened out of nowhere with absolutely no build up.

The biggest issue I have with Blue is how it goes against everything SsjG is right after SsjG is introduced. What was the point of giving SsjG a skinny and young look only to go against that with the very next form ? To make things worse, it was introduced waaaaaay to soon, as we barely got a taste of SsjG in BOG only to be given yet another form soon after.

[JulieYBM]

I like Blue. I just don't like the lack of a drawback or the fact that there are so many transformations being squeezed into the series. Gokuu and Vegeta should only have God and Blue at this point, no more Super Saiyan, SS2 and SS3. Furthermore, Blue should be a risky move that could backfire if used too willy-nilly. Once the crew are willing to make a new form after Blue--Migatte no Goku'i--then God should be dumped into Base form and Blue can become the main transformation. Basically, battles should only have one at-will transformation at a time and that transformation should be a part of a strategy. Otherwise, you wind up with dumb as shit battles like the battle with Freeza on Planet Namek.

So, basically, Gokuu begins a battle against his opponent in his base form. After playing it safe and figuring out how his opponent moves, Gokuu switches to Blue to end things quickly and decisively. If he's too willy-nilly then he'll open himself to a sucker-punch that will critically injure him!

[TheSaiyanGod]

I like Blue. I just don't like the lack of a drawback or the fact that there are so many transformations being squeezed into the series. Gokuu and Vegeta should only have God and Blue at this point, no more Super Saiyan, SS2 and SS3. Furthermore, Blue should be a risky move that could backfire if used too willy-nilly. Once the crew are willing to make a new form after Blue--Migatte no Goku'i--then God should be dumped into Base form and Blue can become the main transformation. Basically, battles should only have one at-will transformation at a time and that transformation should be a part of a strategy. Otherwise, you wind up with dumb as shit battles like the battle with Freeza on Planet Namek.

So, basically, Gokuu begins a battle against his opponent in his base form. After playing it safe and figuring out how his opponent moves, Gokuu switches to Blue to end things quickly and decisively. If he's too willy-nilly then he'll open himself to a sucker-punch that will critically injure him!

The SSB was a pain in the ass in the manga until Goku and Vegeta mastered the transformation. That's why I like Blue's portrait in the manga, it really looked like a very powerful form and at the same time with several drawbacks. This ruled out the need for new transformations to be introduced as early as Blue Kaioken (which only worsened the series' power creep in the anime)

Introducing Blue was a mistake because it needlessly complicated things. It also happened out of nowhere with absolutely no build up.

The biggest issue I have with Blue is how it goes against everything SsjG is right after SsjG is introduced. What was the point of giving SsjG a skinny and young look only to go against that with the very next form ? To make things worse, it was introduced waaaaaay to soon, as we barely got a taste of SsjG in BOG only to be given yet another form soon after.

Honestly, I don't think Toriyama cares about SSG. I don't remember the reception of this transformation at the time of the BoG movie, but he quickly got rid of it and never bothered to bring it back until the Broly movie arrived (which only had SSG Vegeta because of Toyotaro)

[emperior]

Super Saiyan God was a different transformation to the others. It was basically just a tool for the plot of Battle of Gods, which actually was that there’s always someone stronger out there and a new level to reach.
Goku got arrogant and therefore had to be helped by others to achieve that power, but by the mid of the battle he has learned the lesson and has made that power his own.

The form actually lasted very little unlike in Super where it’s active for a few episodes.

Then come Resurrection F and someone probably suggested Toriyama to include a new transformation. But Goku already absorbed SSG, as the movie clearly showed and Toriyama reiterated in his interviews... therefore he came up with the concept that a Saiyan who has absorbed SSG will turn Blue when going Super Saiyan.
That form IS, effectively, just Super Saiyan in that movie. Even Vegeta refers it as the legendary Super Saiyan form. Goku explains it clearly.

The concept of a Godly base form was in fact present in Resurrection F.
But then Super came and Toriyama, after buying time by telling Toei to retell the movies (when Super was announced he said the next new arc would have been U7 exploring U6, so probably he was still writing the arc and only provided some designs) Toriyama decided that for a long running show it was better to bring back the blonde Super Saiyan forms... and therefore the Godly base concept was retconned and the Super Saiyan form seen in RoF was called Blue to help it feel distinguished from the normal Super Saiyan.

Then Toyotaro had the idea to bring SSG back too and Toriyama agreed with it and that’s why now both Goku and Vegeta use SSG quite a bit.
SSG basically replaces the God base form seen in RoF by the way. It’s probably easier to understand than to say that Goku has absorbed its power and therefore it’s useless for him to use it, and it also means they can use the iconic Super Saiyan forms.