Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 35 - DBZ episode 3-7

[KBABZ]

I don't know what you were implying, but it says "meant to reflect his upper-class manner of speaking in the original Japanese." I'm saying that Piccolo does not speak in any sort of "upper-class" manner in the Japanese version.

Really?? I was under the impression that he did. Where'd ViZ derive his initial manner of speaking from then?

Their ass

very helpful

[MyVisionity]

I don't know what you were implying, but it says "meant to reflect his upper-class manner of speaking in the original Japanese." I'm saying that Piccolo does not speak in any sort of "upper-class" manner in the Japanese version.

Really?? I was under the impression that he did. Where'd ViZ derive his initial manner of speaking from then?

I don't think anyone knows for sure, but I guess because of the Satan parallels and Piccolo being a demon the translator thought that kind of speech would be fitting. Even though that's not in character for Piccolo or accurate to the original dialogue.

[Robo4900]

I've added a few things to the OP, and fixed some trivia as per the discussion that's happened so far.

FWIW, I kinda had to rush out the door when I was finishing writing the thread, and I forgot to post some Kai-related trivia, which I've just added to the OP:

• There are three redraws in Kai episode 2; one is from the recap, showing footage from the 23rd Tenkaichi again, while the other two are from Roshi's flashback, and were created to censor kid Goku's genitals.
• There are 21 redraws in Kai episode 3. One corrected an animation error where the white backing to the Turtle symbol on Goku's gi was missing, one changed Piccolo's blood to purple, a few censor the blood and chest wounds from Piccolo killing Goku and Raditz (manga vs Z vs Kai), one fixed the colouring of Vegeta's hair and armour. Some of these are likely 16:9-exclusive redraws for framing reasons; I'm not sure how many.
• There are five redraws in Kai episode 4. One of these corrects an animation error where the Turtle symbol wasn't drawn on Goku's gi.
• On its original broadcast, the title of episode 5 was not shown in the preview at the end of episode 4; this was corrected for home video.

It does also kinda annoy me that it didn't occur to me to list the edits made to edited Z episode 1, so here's the info, from the same source that I'm taking my info for the rest of the episodes from:
http://www.dbzu.3gkai.com/series/ep001.html
http://www.dbzu.3gkai.com/series/ep002.html

(It's listed as episode 1 and 2, because this guide follows the uncut numbering...)

Kai being the much more faithful dub of course recycled the 2005 dialog for Popo and Kami’s exchange verbatim word for word.

HAH.

"Funimation's DBZ Kai is the most faithful possible DBZ experience" my ass!!

It's actually quite funny how much of early Funi Kai just uses the 2005 dialogue verbatim, often meaning that their "New and improved Kai dub" is using the same dialogue as the original 1996 edited dub, complete with all the weird changes that come along with that.

[MasenkoHA]

It's actually quite funny how much of early Funi Kai just uses the 2005 dialogue verbatim, often meaning that their "New and improved Kai dub" is using the same dialogue as the original 1996 edited dub, complete with all the weird changes that come along with that.

I’m half tempted to do an in depth comparison of the 2005 redub vs Kai for the first 67/31 episodes (fast forwarding through all the scenes that were removed for Kai obviously)

[Robo4900]

It's actually quite funny how much of early Funi Kai just uses the 2005 dialogue verbatim, often meaning that their "New and improved Kai dub" is using the same dialogue as the original 1996 edited dub, complete with all the weird changes that come along with that.

I’m half tempted to do an in depth comparison of the 2005 redub vs Kai for the first 67/31 episodes (fast forwarding through all the scenes that were removed for Kai obviously)

Well, if you wanted to start at episode 8, I can throw in some highlights of your comparison in the OP for the thread for 8-12.

Also, if you did this, you should include the '96 dub where applicable. This is particularly useful in cases like the "Hop where?" moment... Though, actually, is that one of this week's episodes? IIRC it's later, but thinking on it, it might be among 3-7...

[Robo4900]

Watching episodes 3-5...

Man, Z is a really bad starting point.
Goku suddenly remembering he can grab Raditz's tail to immobilise him. If you have DB before this, you know this, it's well-established. Starting here, it's contrived bullshit.

Though, that said, this does introduce a new rule out of no where, regardless: "Kami-sama said that you can't ask Shen Long to grant the same wish a second time." It's not a bad addition, in fact I think the limitation makes the story better, and in this specific case it's mostly a handwave for why Roshi and Kuririn can't help, so it works.

Piccolo jumping in to help is such a great turn that doesn't have any impact AT ALL if you haven't seen DB. But, assuming you're doing this right, man, this is fucking HUGE.
And SUCH A GREAT SCENE!!...
A while ago, I tried isolating the voices from the Saban dub of this scene and putting it on the HD "Level" footage. It worked really well, actually, but I realised that the edited dub made LOADS of small rearrangements of shots in this scene, so it was difficult to put it together in a way that made sense.
I really love the Saban line here, "If you can stand working with me, than I can bear working with you." McNeil's delivery really sells it. (I'm watching subbed, but this line always sticks in my head. McNeil is my Piccolo, after all) Accurate to the spirit of the Japanese too.

The cutaways to Bulma thinking about Gohan are also a great way of grouding what's happening. "Oh right, this kid has a mother; his father has a wife. And she has no idea what's happening." Really builds some sympathy for her when she becomes weary of letting Gohan hang around with the gang after this. (Though IMO Toriyama and Toei did a really bad job of writing Chichi's parts in the Namek and Cell arcs in general... They just didn't write her sympathetically enough. And IMO, the Funi dub does the writing no favours in this regard; their take is very hard-edged. Laara Sadiq from the Vancouver dubs always had a softer touch; always felt far more sympathetic, perhaps even moreseo than the Japanese VAs IMO. Far more the concerned mother, far less the unreasonable nag caricature the character would often be depicted as. No hate for Cynthia Cranz, of course; as always, I remain optimistic that the Funi actors could give us something infinitely better if the direction paid more attention to how things should be, rather than just trying to keep things as close as possible to how they were in 1999-2008)

I know certain people here aren't TFS fans (TL note: "Sorry, ABED"), but the scene where Goku asks Piccolo about the weighted clothing, I can't help but think about the TFS line there... "Piccolo; you wear weighted clothing too?" "No, Goku, I just love to get naked around you." TFS's Piccolo is a lot more sarcastic and witty than the real Piccolo, so it would have no place in the real show, but I still love the line.

Gohan getting angry and going rage mode against Raditz is so drawn-out. It's a bit of the end of the one episode, then it's the entire first few minutes of the next. God, I always forget how ridiculous the pacing gets here.

I like that Piccolo asks Goku why he didn't simply grab Raditz's tail again; Goku notes that Raditz could just cut it off himself. Raditz is shocked that Goku realised this; clearly Goku was right to suspect this.
IIRC the dubs generally cut this exchange. And in fairness, it is just patching a plothole, so I don't mind the Saban dub cutting that sequence out; the whole affair moves faster that way... But, I don't remember it in the uncut dub, and there's no excuse there.

At some point, I'll stop nitpicking the excellent work Steve Simmons did, giving us an actually-faithful/good way to watch Dragon Ball, but I just wanted to note another awkward line he wrote back in the '00s, for Piccolo when he's explaining Dragon Balls to Raditz:
"By asking of them, any desire one may have can become possible."

And again, Chichi... Poor Chichi. She has no idea her husband is dying.

[Matches Malone]

Piccolo jumping in to help is such a great turn that doesn't have any impact AT ALL if you haven't seen DB. But, assuming you're doing this right, man, this is fucking HUGE.

Fans who started with Z (including myself) really missed out on the impact of this scene, and Piccolo training Gohan and dying for him. There's also the impact behind the Z fighters deaths that is nowhere near as powerful as it's for those who saw their adventures from day one. This arc must've been a total blast to read back when it was published in Japan. With how straightforward DB is nowadays, it's easy to forget just how clever Toriyama was back in the day, and how many twists and turns he was able to put in each arc.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Episode 156 - Alright! This is the Strongest Combo on Earth! (Z Episode 3)

For the most part this episode was enjoyable, but mostly as a bridge between the monumental revelation of Goku's origins and his first fight after that where our hero comes to learn what the saiyans have in store.

The tone is mostly bleak throughout the episode. The persistent use of silence works well as it sets the tone for the uncertainty and fear surrounding the events at hand. Goku has to grapple with the grief of losing his son unless he piles a hundred bodies. The fact that now Goku's friends like Kuririn could die a second time and never be resurrected brings with it greater tension. The only potential team mate for Goku to face this formidable new threat with is his arch rival Piccolo Jr. Everything seems hopeless from the onset.

The loyalty Gohan continues to show for Goku is quite endearing. At various points in the episode Gohan is crying, as Raditz grabs him, when Raditz blows the car he tried to hide behind the wheel of, and when he is trapped in the space pod. His fear and despair is quickly turned to hope when he hears Goku's voice, implying the bond they shared is indeed a strong one, and it adds a greater sense of personal responsibility on Goku's behalf than we've seen in any of his fights thus far, making the upcoming fight with Raditz far more rewarding for anyone who has watched the series from the Pilaf arc until now.

In the midst of all the darkness there are some insights into what life means to some of the characters. Kuririn's fear of never getting married should he be killed again is charming in a sombre context as it shows what romantic love means to him compared to Goku who has achieved his dream, but lacks that level of passion, although he does still care for Chi-Chi. Chi-Chi's fear that Gohan didn't finish his homework is simply a symptom of only wanting the best for her child despite having a father and being surrounded by friends who are eager to train and fight. The differences in perspective is very entertaining for what they are. Raditz shows a more shallow and sadistic mindset, laughing as his own brother agonizes on the beach and being so concerned about power levels to the extent he thinks a mere child like Gohan having a high level could be his scouter malfunctioning.

The true driving force behind this episode however was the idea that Piccolo could be Goku's new team member. The mysterious sounding Kikuchi track as Goku fears he won't be able to face this new threat and save his son alone and the audience has to wonder who will help only for Piccolo to emerge from above. The thought that Goku and Piccolo could possibly put their differences aside after how much their rivalry has been built up poses a lot of questions for what direction their relationship could take going forward with the promise of even more powerful saiyans to come. Kikuchi's music takes an ominous tone to emphasize the risk this partnership brings, and the thumping as they agree to partner up highlights the possibility, but not certainty that this could become something great.

A new and different match up lies ahead for the upcoming episode and many more questions to be answered for arguably one of the most important arcs yet.

Episode 157 - Piccolo’s Trump Card! Gohan is a Crybaby (Z Episode 4)

A very gradual easing into the heat of battle takes place in this episode. Not only is the battle between the team of Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz very steadily built up but it is a perfect match to start this new arc on because of its relevance to the story told and the story to come.

From a narrative perspective this episode is at its best when its foreshadowing. Piccolo preparing his Makankosappo serves as a reminder that this is a villain who is still plotting how to kill Goku once and for all, and Gohan's sudden burst of rage implies his hidden strength and how, like his father he too could become a child prodigy.

Interestingly Raditz outlook on battle is drastically different from Goku and Piccolo. As established in the previous episode Raditz focuses solely on simple numbers and comes off paranoid whenever there is a potentially higher power level than his. Goku and Piccolo are focusing more on strategy, taking different positions to prepare the Kamehame Ha and the Makankosappo respectively. In light of this while Raditz appears to be more competitive in hand to hand combat, it is this tactical movement on Goku and Piccolo's part that offers a sliver of optimism for them to bounce back. Ironically it is their familiarity with one's techniques that allows them to work so well together.

The music remains silent for a large portion of the episode, but works well for the purpose of showing the disruption of peaceful times on Earth. The scenes of Donkeys eating grass and Chi-Chi being delighted at Gohan's grades both work well as reminders of the peace that some sentient beings on the planet think they are living through. Crucially Chi-Chi's scene plays after a shot where Raditz stands on Goku and before him being willing to finish him off, the former being accompanied by a miserable sounding Kikuchi track. There is also tense music breaking the silence following collateral damage caused by Raditz's ki blast as Goku is kicked to the ground, receives his first bleed and Piccolo loses an arm. The musical tracks carry the sense of hopelessness from the previous episode.

With Gohan's comeback there is much anticipation to see how he can turn the tables, especially after seeing how quick his father became strong even as a young child.

Episode 158 - Goku Dies! There’s Only One Chance Left (Z episode 5)

While the conflict with Raditz is resolved in this episode the sense of tension remains as his demise ties in to the greater conflict yet to come with Vegeta and Nappa.

Raditz still comes off as a threat, in the beginning, especially when Goku isn't helping Piccolo prepare his Makankosappo. Gohan's return shocks both Piccolo and Raditz and his assault manages to leave a dent on Raditz' armour, but as the latter still manages to smack his nephew out with ease. The use of an ominous music track and dark clouds hovering over Raditz as he prepares to blast Gohan ensures that this young warrior's prowess was short lived.

Goku's willingness to die for his son is very admirable, and Raditz' shock demonstrates how one brother has learned compassion and the other hasn't. Unsurprisingly Piccolo is only delighted at the opportunity to have his revenge on his arch rival. Goku also has some sweet moments in his last breaths. As Goku holds Kuririn's hand as he promises to revive him and smiles at Gohan not only is it clear that he has developed a strong emotional bond with his friend but he is proud to say that Gohan is his son. These moments are also quite tragic considering the cutbacks to Chi-Chi knitting wondering how everyone is and the Ox King arrives with presents for Gohan unknowing that his grandson will soon be kidnapped by the most feared being on Earth.

The setting up of a greater threat was also very well done. Piccolo's revelation of the Dragon Balls to Raditz ensures that Vegeta and Nappa have another motivation to travel to Earth. The knowledge that more powerful warriors are on their way provides all our heroes a reason to train for the time they have. Interestingly Nappa also speculates on the legend of the Super Saiyan, which adds an extra level of intrigue as to what these warriors, both good and bad are capable of.

Goku's demise however offers a new challenge for the remaining heroes to overcome.

Episode 159 - Even Enma-sama is Surprised — A Fight in the Afterlife (Z Episode 6)

Following the previous action packed episode this episode focuses more on character and worldbuilding, especially with regards to the aftermath of the Raditz battle.

The ways in which our characters deal with the corpse of a villain was interesting to watch. The ever genius Bulma sees opportunity in using Raditz' scouter to better understand saiyan technology. Kuririn is creeped out at the proposition for him to take it off a dead body. Piccolo shows some light by being willing to train Gohan to help the Earth better prepare for the Saiyan attack, although he still shows a great deal of aggressiveness towards Gohan making it clear his father died and being willing to threaten his life in order to awaken his hidden powers. Gohan's flashbacks wondering how his dad could have died once more demonstrate the bond he shared with Goku and how safe he made him feel in comparison to Piccolo who he, Kuririn and everyone else on Earth has only learned to see as a threat.

The expansion of the afterlife in the Dragon Ball universe was also great to see. There were funny moments like seeing how soul traffic is managed, King Yemma's background check on the deceased. Goku, of course was excited to know how strong King Yemma was, so the jokes about him taking out Raditz and overhearing Kami tell Goku that Kaio-Sama was stronger were nice touches. Moreover, even before Goku is blown away by the length of Snake Way the mystery surrounding the identity and personality of Kaio ensures that this arc has plenty of momentum left.

Kikuchi's score, while still fantastic doesn't offer much of note that the previous episodes didn't. The one great track however plays when Goku's friends look back on Piccolo as he regenerates his arm and demands to take Gohan. The eerie feel of this track encompasses both the absurd nature of Piccolo's abilities and the fear surrounding his demands to take Gohan away from the friends he feels safe around. The fear is essential to Kuririn's impossible task of having to tell Chi-Chi not only that her husband has died but that her son is being taken by the most feared being on the Earth.

As this arc continues to progress it is the concern shown by those who care about our heroes the most that makes their journeys all the more enticing to follow. Kami's uncertainty about Goku being trained, Chi-Chi having visions of Gohan being on a desert island or attacked by sharks make any successes Goku and Gohan should have all the more rewarding going forward.

Episode 160 - Dinosaur Survival! Gohan’s Difficult Training (Z Episode 7)

Having spent so much time with Goku in the first few arcs this episode through its focus on Gohan offers a welcome change, and also works by building up his relationship with Piccolo.

Gohan's shock at being told the land Piccolo has brought him to has no bed, books or pencils foreshadows his passion for academia, and is a great first challenge for his character being out of his comfort zone by giving him a chance to learn sustainability like his father before him. Once Piccolo departs leaving Gohan to cry it is clear the son of Goku too must learn to adapt to the wilderness and fend for himself in the face of adversity. Goku learns how good he had it at home as he is delighted to see an apple, finds it sour and longs for his mother's curry. Gohan's growth will become crucial to him being the catalyst for Piccolo's redemption, as Kami notices a slimmer of light in his heart. The notion that mortality, the fact Kami will soon die, and Piccolo knows he will as a result was a very humane and believable change.

The juxtaposition between Gohan and Goku's journeys was an interesting narrative choice too. In Gohan's case he is in his early years learning about the world while missing his father, conversely Goku has passed on, is exploring the next world and excited to think about how much powerful he thinks Gohan may be. Goku's carefree nature as he jumps across Snake Way and appears proud of the fighter he's confident his son will be is quite endearing. The optimistic undertones allow scenes like Gohan failing to climb a cliff and trying to get back on another attempt all the more hopeful.

The Kikuchi score had some good variations throughout key moments in the episode. It captured the awkwardness of Kuririn having to report his best friend's death to Chi-Chi and desperately trying to say it without being blunt. The peaceful track isn't as well placed or flowing with the rest of the score mostly because it was used for a brief gag of Gohan urinating out in the canyon, but it lends itself to a more appropriate downer tune when a dinosaur chases him. The track that played when Gohan is chased worked much better as the ongoing fear of the Saiyans makes it hard for our characters to enjoy peace.

Suffice to say, as Goku is caught by phantom hands as he nearly falls beneath the clouds and Piccolo watches Gohan sleep with apprehension it is clear there are many more adventures to be had in the upcoming episodes.