The treatment of Vegeta in modern dragonball, good or bad?

[Kinokima]

I completely disagree with this. Obviously Vegeta isn’t going to go through as major change as he did in Z and I am not expecting that but to say the only thing they can do with the character is have him chase continuously after Goku and fight and ultimately lose to every main villain is kind of well what’s the point?

There is still some room for development, just not enough to sustain a continuation that could have as many arcs, if not more than the original. I'm not just talking about Vegeta, but everyone.

That’s why I am saying quantity is not quality. Vegeta doesn’t have to be the focus with Goku every arc.

I don’t want them to retire Vegeta for good but like the idea of smaller main casts that rotate every arc.

Goku arguably has to be the focus of every arc in some way but I don’t think Vegeta does. I mean I wouldn’t be as interested in an arc without Vegeta but I also don’t think this would be a bad approach for the series

[JewyB]

You can make the case that his character development peaked (it did in the Buu arc) and that there's nowhere to go, but that's the same for every character since the end of the OG manga. At least (imho) Vegeta has not regressed like Goku has.

I personally believe Goku hasn't regressed, just developed in a different direction. His initial development was that of someone who became more aware of the risks his actions have on others, which is fair, but people expect this to be the ongoing state of a character who has learnt that death is basically meaningless and has become a literal god.

I think it's natural that, as he learns that his actions rarely have consequences, he has given up on worrying about them and gone back to being the light-hearted person he was before. He hasn't "lost" anything so to speak, he just changed track. There are a few instances of his character being handled poorly, but i feel him developing in a more relaxed way makes sense for his character post-Buu.

[ChronoTwigger]

There is something in narrative writing and subcon perception of story called Character Arc.
Each character got a premise that you'll probably discover later, and when the character solve it, the role of the character is gone. He should die, go away, marry and be happy forever... whatever, but his role is now gone and so he MUST go away, or it does create black holes, dead times and dead ends in the plot.

That already happened for both Goku and Vegeta - well, it's happened to EVERY character at this point.
The only way to revive a character and have it get any story influence is by introducing new factors in the story - they tried for Goku and the Sayan God thing. To me was a little forced, but whatever.

So...
Whatever happened to Vegeta after Frieza defeat is not characterization, treatment, chara evolution, retcons or anything: Vegeta is just a dead thing they MUST manage 'cause is there without ANY reason, and that's why you have so much inconstistencies.

You can only change Vegeta and see him evolve/react by introducing new elements that create a new premise for him.
It's VERY VERY hard they can do something similar for Vegeta alone, that's fated to be Bullwinkle for eternity (as long as someone doesn't risk to introduce new elements to the story).
ONE EXAMPLE: (silly, but you can understand what I mean) - Vegeta go visit Sadla, the king is overthrown, and Vegeta that actually own royal blood was fated to take that throne. Continue onward.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

You can make the case that his character development peaked (it did in the Buu arc) and that there's nowhere to go, but that's the same for every character since the end of the OG manga. At least (imho) Vegeta has not regressed like Goku has.

I personally believe Goku hasn't regressed, just developed in a different direction. His initial development was that of someone who became more aware of the risks his actions have on others, which is fair, but people expect this to be the ongoing state of a character who has learnt that death is basically meaningless and has become a literal god.

I think it's natural that, as he learns that his actions rarely have consequences, he has given up on worrying about them and gone back to being the light-hearted person he was before. He hasn't "lost" anything so to speak, he just changed track. There are a few instances of his character being handled poorly, but i feel him developing in a more relaxed way makes sense for his character post-Buu.

It's ironic, I actually just finished MasakoX's video "The Dark Side of Goku," and I came away with a similar perspective of Goku's character. While maybe it wasn't my preferred direction for him, I largely agree with your statement. It isn't so much regression as "backwards progression" lol (that probably makes no real sense). I still don't care for his "stupid" Super moments, but otherwise my thoughts have changed a bit.

[JewyB]

You can make the case that his character development peaked (it did in the Buu arc) and that there's nowhere to go, but that's the same for every character since the end of the OG manga. At least (imho) Vegeta has not regressed like Goku has.

I personally believe Goku hasn't regressed, just developed in a different direction. His initial development was that of someone who became more aware of the risks his actions have on others, which is fair, but people expect this to be the ongoing state of a character who has learnt that death is basically meaningless and has become a literal god.

I think it's natural that, as he learns that his actions rarely have consequences, he has given up on worrying about them and gone back to being the light-hearted person he was before. He hasn't "lost" anything so to speak, he just changed track. There are a few instances of his character being handled poorly, but i feel him developing in a more relaxed way makes sense for his character post-Buu.

It's ironic, I actually just finished MasakoX's video "The Dark Side of Goku," and I came away with a similar perspective of Goku's character. While maybe it wasn't my preferred direction for him, I largely agree with your statement. It isn't so much regression as "backwards progression" lol (that probably makes no real sense). I still don't care for his "stupid" Super moments, but otherwise my thoughts have changed a bit.

I havent seen that video(I think i avoid Masako's videos out of pure jealousy and blame it on the ADHD), but i'll look it up!

I think the term is circular progression? But its mainly used in more episodic formats like sitcoms etc, and Goku's is less circular, more A to B and then to C but C is dangerously close to A. But i am very much with you, some moments in Super were so obnoxiously stupid you know those are the scenes Toriyama probably had more focus in at conception, as he cares WAY more about the jokes than the lore(i believe that was the consistent thing throughout interviews?) or someone was desperately trying to mimic Toriyama but with a flawed/nostalgic view of Goku.

I feel like Goku more circles being static and always has done, and most people who write him wrong either try to overdevelop him or flanderise him.

[Lionel]

My opinion hasn't been so inclined to pumping my fists in the air and cheering Vegeta on whenever he was engaged in a fight or was enjoying a hunk of development in his fighting career. I don't care for the aggrandisement of the Saiyans which seems to have come packaged with a princely cheerleader. Toyotaro hasn't been all too inclined to challenging the sentiment neither. A prodigal character type can be supportable if they're developed in a sympathising context, I feel. Vegeta hasn't inspired such thoughts in me personally.

In keeping with the spirit of the duopoly that was once in what could be called a precursory form of the current dynamic in the final portion of the Buu arc, Vegeta has been fully accommodated into the now permanent role of deuteragonist. I'm not much into feeding his Saiyan juggernaut mentality or deconstructing others so as to build him up as could arguably be inferred with examples like his appropriating Gohan's trademark rage inspired strength bursts in the Beerus arc or what was effectively a rehashing of Piccolo's ploy against Cell in order to siphon information from Moro in this current arc.

Now all of that isn't to say Vegeta lacks good points as a character for me. I enjoy the relationship he's formed with Bulma and his children. The grief he feels for the atrocities he perpetrated against the Namekians and need to protect them so as to redeem himself is a concept that I can respect. Going back as far as the fight against Fat Buu you had one of the rare occasions where I was genuinely rooting for Vegeta due to him humbling himself by taking responsibility in releasing the monster.

Unfortunately, I feel those moments of emotional relatability are often outweighed by his outward arrogance and putdowning of others. Mind you, my favouritism towards Piccolo and Vegeta's condescension towards the beloved Super Namekian has influenced my opinion here.

[JulieYBM]

Since Super he has been written in a very stereotypical Cell arc manner and jt has definitely become a real bore to slog through. I was hoping we could finally get Vegeta with a new character dynamic, playing straight man to Gokuu. What a shame.

[Kinokima]

Since Super he has been written in a very stereotypical Cell arc manner and jt has definitely become a real bore to slog through. I was hoping we could finally get Vegeta with a new character dynamic, playing straight man to Gokuu. What a shame.

In the Cell arc Vegeta didn’t care that Bulma and Baby Trunks could have died, punched his own son when he tried to stop him from making a grave mistake and let Cell become perfect to feed his own ego not caring about the consequences or about anyone but himself. He was downright cruel in the Cell arc until the ending.


So when people say Vegeta is like he was in the Cell arc I am really not sure what they are talking about. It just seems like a lazy way to criticize the character writing and completely ignores the changes that Vegeta does show in Super.

I am not saying Vegeta is perfect but saying he is like Cell Saga Vegeta is one of my biggest annoyances in this fandom.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

Since Super he has been written in a very stereotypical Cell arc manner and jt has definitely become a real bore to slog through. I was hoping we could finally get Vegeta with a new character dynamic, playing straight man to Gokuu. What a shame.

In the Cell arc Vegeta didn’t care that Bulma and Baby Trunks could have died, punched his own son when he tried to stop him from making a grave mistake and let Cell become perfect to feed his own ego not caring about the consequences or about anyone but himself. He was downright cruel in the Cell arc until the ending.


So when people say Vegeta is like he was in the Cell arc I am really not sure what they are talking about. It just seems like a lazy way to criticize the character writing and completely ignores the changes that Vegeta does show in Super.

I am not saying Vegeta is perfect but saying he is like Cell Saga Vegeta is one of my biggest annoyances in this fandom.

Vegeta is a full 180 from how he was in the Cell arc. He might not be perfect but he's FAR from Cell arc.

[JulieYBM]

Since Super he has been written in a very stereotypical Cell arc manner and jt has definitely become a real bore to slog through. I was hoping we could finally get Vegeta with a new character dynamic, playing straight man to Gokuu. What a shame.

In the Cell arc Vegeta didn’t care that Bulma and Baby Trunks could have died, punched his own son when he tried to stop him from making a grave mistake and let Cell become perfect to feed his own ego not caring about the consequences or about anyone but himself. He was downright cruel in the Cell arc until the ending.


So when people say Vegeta is like he was in the Cell arc I am really not sure what they are talking about. It just seems like a lazy way to criticize the character writing and completely ignores the changes that Vegeta does show in Super.

I am not saying Vegeta is perfect but saying he is like Cell Saga Vegeta is one of my biggest annoyances in this fandom.

I'm referring his constantly agitated and irritated behavior, mixed with overblown arrogance. He's constantly one mood and it is beyond tiring to watch.

Like, chill the fuck out, Vegeta-chan.

[Kinokima]

Since Super he has been written in a very stereotypical Cell arc manner and jt has definitely become a real bore to slog through. I was hoping we could finally get Vegeta with a new character dynamic, playing straight man to Gokuu. What a shame.

In the Cell arc Vegeta didn’t care that Bulma and Baby Trunks could have died, punched his own son when he tried to stop him from making a grave mistake and let Cell become perfect to feed his own ego not caring about the consequences or about anyone but himself. He was downright cruel in the Cell arc until the ending.


So when people say Vegeta is like he was in the Cell arc I am really not sure what they are talking about. It just seems like a lazy way to criticize the character writing and completely ignores the changes that Vegeta does show in Super.

I am not saying Vegeta is perfect but saying he is like Cell Saga Vegeta is one of my biggest annoyances in this fandom.

I'm referring his constantly agitated and irritated behavior, mixed with overblown arrogance. He's constantly one mood and it is beyond tiring to watch.

Like, chill the fuck out, Vegeta-chan.

This is an exaggeration and it is easy to point to examples where this is not true.

Yes Vegeta is always going to be arrogant. That’s a character quirk of his. No one is saying Vegeta is perfect. The Dragon Ball characters being quirky and flawed makes them who they are. It doesn’t make him Cell Saga Vegeta

He’s also a Tsundere and can be a bit of a jerk & a grump on the outside but obviously cares about others. That’s what a Tsundere is it’s a hot/cold personality. That is also very much the opposite of Cell Saga Vegeta. If anything Vegeta’s personality is a bit of a joke but some fans take it way too seriously. A perfect example of this is when in the manga Vegeta tells Goku that Jiren is not the approachable type and Goku is like “but you are like that too Vegeta.”


Obviously I can’t say he shouldn’t be tiresome to you. That’s an opinion but I can say comparing him to Cell Saga Vegeta completely misses the nuances of the character.

Sorry for the rant!

[Cipher]

Since Super he has been written in a very stereotypical Cell arc manner and jt has definitely become a real bore to slog through. I was hoping we could finally get Vegeta with a new character dynamic, playing straight man to Gokuu. What a shame.

There are several flashes of him in this role in the Super manga--trying to explain what a kiss is, chewing Goku out for losing in UI--and they're by far my favorite moments from him.

[JewyB]

Since Super he has been written in a very stereotypical Cell arc manner and jt has definitely become a real bore to slog through. I was hoping we could finally get Vegeta with a new character dynamic, playing straight man to Gokuu. What a shame.

In the Cell arc Vegeta didn’t care that Bulma and Baby Trunks could have died, punched his own son when he tried to stop him from making a grave mistake and let Cell become perfect to feed his own ego not caring about the consequences or about anyone but himself. He was downright cruel in the Cell arc until the ending.


So when people say Vegeta is like he was in the Cell arc I am really not sure what they are talking about. It just seems like a lazy way to criticize the character writing and completely ignores the changes that Vegeta does show in Super.

I am not saying Vegeta is perfect but saying he is like Cell Saga Vegeta is one of my biggest annoyances in this fandom.

I'm referring his constantly agitated and irritated behavior, mixed with overblown arrogance. He's constantly one mood and it is beyond tiring to watch.

Like, chill the fuck out, Vegeta-chan.

Thats literally who he is as a person though, it doesn't mean he hasn't developed. Would you accept it if Super came along and suddenly Vegeta was very passive to Goku and everyone else?

Arrogance is something Vegeta had ingrained into him for 30 years before he arrived on Earth, it's who he is, and he has mellowed with age, he has just mellowed in character as opposed to becoming a completely different character for the sake of ease when it comes to showing development.

In fact, a lot of the times he is agitated and irritated show development in my opinion, since can you imagine Saiyan-Cell Saga Vegeta standing around getting annoyed as a crowd of people jostle and harass him for being "grumpy"? His rage has subsided into irritation, but his arrogance is still there, and lets be fair, as the 3/4th(?) strongest in the universe, its deserved.

[LoganForkHands73]

I see a lot of praise for Goku's "non-arc" as it were, i.e. his general lack of change and why that's good for Dragon Ball's narrative. While I have some issues with that whole hypothesis and I think it's fairly evident that modern Dragon Ball very much is interested in exploring Vegeta's character with some degree of depth and taking it to new places (I mean, even at the end of the Buu arc, could you imagine Vegeta coddling baby Bra the way he does now?), but I don't see why it's so bad for Vegeta to stay in the relatively stable, consistent place he is now in terms of characterisation? If it's okay for Goku, why not Vegeta? He's firmly settled into a role as the bad cop to Goku's good cop. He's still rough around the edges, he's still kind of an insecure dick, but like Goku he's unwittingly changing other people around him for the better by being a "static character". Cabba is obviously the major one, but he's also helped inspired Future Trunks, Toppo and Jiren out of their issues, all by being so stubbornly, tenaciously principled to his core values.

I agree with this, people complain about characters lack of development in DB but people aren't always developing, some people are content, Vegeta and Gohan are prime examples. I think for Vegeta and Gohan to develop in the way people want them too are actually people wanting them to regress into the characters they used to be because they dont like the development, which is fine, but the opposite of how they present the argument.

I also don't like the argument of "But Vegeta claimed Goku was number 1 why does he want to surpass him now", as though people have never had an epiphany then fallen back into a bad habit immediately afterwards. Hell i knock that out three times before breakfast, the meal i totally accept should be healthy but habitually it is usually not. Old habits die hard, the smaller changes that stick are true development.

Thanks, I feel your last point is very important. It reminds me of Garth Ennis's commentary of how he wrote Wee Hughie in The Boys comic book -- he noted before the story got underway that readers would have to get used to the fact that while Hughie will definitely change, but will often make the same mistakes, do questionable things, fall into ruts, etc. because that's the completely realistic, human thing to do. Character arcs don't have to be a line graph of Point A (bad place) to Point B (good place). Real people don't learn a moral lesson and instantaneously transform into better human beings. For even a bit of change to happen, it takes time. Arguably, some parts of Vegeta's development throughout Z happened too fast to be organic. After Namek, he's suddenly okay with chilling out and having barbecues with the people he ordered to be brutally murdered not too long ago. Like... what?

I feel that there's a number of double-standards surrounding the way Vegeta is written, it often feels like people are looking for things to complain about. Case in point, the whole "I'm a villain" thing. Even Piccolo had a hard time accepting that he was a hero. He was still giving the whole evil Piccolo Daimao lip service for ages after he became a full-time Z-Warrior. No one believed him. But when Vegeta does the same thing, suddenly hackfraud Toyotaro is telling us that we have to believe he's villainous? Even 5 year olds can understand that that's obviously not the case.

[UI Peter]

Since Super he has been written in a very stereotypical Cell arc manner and jt has definitely become a real bore to slog through. I was hoping we could finally get Vegeta with a new character dynamic, playing straight man to Gokuu. What a shame.

In the Cell arc Vegeta didn’t care that Bulma and Baby Trunks could have died, punched his own son when he tried to stop him from making a grave mistake and let Cell become perfect to feed his own ego not caring about the consequences or about anyone but himself. He was downright cruel in the Cell arc until the ending.


So when people say Vegeta is like he was in the Cell arc I am really not sure what they are talking about. It just seems like a lazy way to criticize the character writing and completely ignores the changes that Vegeta does show in Super.

I am not saying Vegeta is perfect but saying he is like Cell Saga Vegeta is one of my biggest annoyances in this fandom.

I'm referring his constantly agitated and irritated behavior, mixed with overblown arrogance. He's constantly one mood and it is beyond tiring to watch.

Like, chill the fuck out, Vegeta-chan.

That's Vegeta in basically every arc in Z, so what so special about the Cell arc? So a character needs some forced happiness/positivity in order to be interesting? A character is not allowed to be upset now? Its a stupid complaint.

[UI Peter]

I see a lot of praise for Goku's "non-arc" as it were, i.e. his general lack of change and why that's good for Dragon Ball's narrative. While I have some issues with that whole hypothesis and I think it's fairly evident that modern Dragon Ball very much is interested in exploring Vegeta's character with some degree of depth and taking it to new places (I mean, even at the end of the Buu arc, could you imagine Vegeta coddling baby Bra the way he does now?), but I don't see why it's so bad for Vegeta to stay in the relatively stable, consistent place he is now in terms of characterisation? If it's okay for Goku, why not Vegeta? He's firmly settled into a role as the bad cop to Goku's good cop. He's still rough around the edges, he's still kind of an insecure dick, but like Goku he's unwittingly changing other people around him for the better by being a "static character". Cabba is obviously the major one, but he's also helped inspired Future Trunks, Toppo and Jiren out of their issues, all by being so stubbornly, tenaciously principled to his core values.

I agree with this, people complain about characters lack of development in DB but people aren't always developing, some people are content, Vegeta and Gohan are prime examples. I think for Vegeta and Gohan to develop in the way people want them too are actually people wanting them to regress into the characters they used to be because they dont like the development, which is fine, but the opposite of how they present the argument.

I also don't like the argument of "But Vegeta claimed Goku was number 1 why does he want to surpass him now", as though people have never had an epiphany then fallen back into a bad habit immediately afterwards. Hell i knock that out three times before breakfast, the meal i totally accept should be healthy but habitually it is usually not. Old habits die hard, the smaller changes that stick are true development.

Thanks, I feel your last point is very important. It reminds me of Garth Ennis's commentary of how he wrote Wee Hughie in The Boys comic book -- he noted before the story got underway that readers would have to get used to the fact that while Hughie will definitely change, but will often make the same mistakes, do questionable things, fall into ruts, etc. because that's the completely realistic, human thing to do. Character arcs don't have to be a line graph of Point A (bad place) to Point B (good place). Real people don't learn a moral lesson and instantaneously transform into better human beings. For even a bit of change to happen, it takes time. Arguably, some parts of Vegeta's development throughout Z happened too fast to be organic. After Namek, he's suddenly okay with chilling out and having barbecues with the people he ordered to be brutally murdered not too long ago. Like... what?

I feel that there's a number of double-standards surrounding the way Vegeta is written, it often feels like people are looking for things to complain about. Case in point, the whole "I'm a villain" thing. Even Piccolo had a hard time accepting that he was a hero. He was still giving the whole evil Piccolo Daimao lip service for ages after he became a full-time Z-Warrior. No one believed him. But when Vegeta does the same thing, suddenly hackfraud Toyotaro is telling us that we have to believe he's villainous? Even 5 year olds can understand that that's obviously not the case.

Exactly. Way too many people in this Fandom whine and nitpick over every little thing he does (yet never give the rest of the cast this same level of scrutiny when they do the same damn thing smh) and then scream "regression" whenever he does something they don't like even though that makes zero sense.

[Skar]

I like the family man Vegeta in DBS and GT. There were a few moments where I thought "hmm this doesn't sound like what a post-Buu saga Vegeta would say" but I recall those being anime or manga only scenes so I assume they weren't written by Toriyama. I can't remember the exact scenes so it wasn't too bad but I just remember having that feeling a few times. I would've preferred if both versions only stuck with regular Blue like in Broly so that Goku and Vegeta remain more or less equal until the ToP.

The only issue I had was that they needed to be taught teamwork. This is more of a gripe in sequels that try to have established characters relearn the same lessons. I think this usually only serve increase the runtime since the result of this development is the same as when they last learned it. For example, Gohan slacking off again only to come the realization that he needs to train to protect his family again. If he had continued to train after the Buu saga, nothing would've really changed by the ToP except that he wouldnt have lost as badly in RoF.

When I watched GT, I really enjoyed that Vegeta suggested fusion and didn't think there was anything off about it since they already worked together in the Buu saga. It's no longer necessarily to get beat up individually before resorting to teamwork or fusion especially when it's obvious that the enemy is too powerful. I liked in Broly how they immediately worked together after he went SSJ and then one attack didn't work so Goku teleported to teach Vegeta the Fusion Dance.

[JewyB]

I think the only reason they need to be "taught" teamwork is that Goku and Vegeta have been fighting alone for 50 years, aside from the occasional team up, both of them have it ingrained in them to not only take charge but to expect to be fighting alone, which influences why they leave each other to it also, from the midnset of "well i wouldnt want help".

I don't think they don't know how to fight as a team and i think they're more than capable, but they've both been focusing on learning to rely on their instincts, and nature and nurture have both made them pretty deadset on instinctively fighting alone.

Its especially worse when they're as close as they are now, usually when it comes to teamwork in DB there's always one person ludicrously above the other so its natural who takes the lead(I think Raditz is the only exception to this?), so there's a lot jsut, under the surface that will force them to act terribly when it comes to teamwork.

I do think they are getting better at it though, slower than experts should but at least they're showing growth and there are pretty fair reasons why they would be bad at it.

[Skar]

I think the only reason they need to be "taught" teamwork is that Goku and Vegeta have been fighting alone for 50 years, aside from the occasional team up, both of them have it ingrained in them to not only take charge but to expect to be fighting alone, which influences why they leave each other to it also, from the midnset of "well i wouldnt want help".

I get what you mean. It works if they want to give Goku and Vegeta something to improve but I just felt it wasn't really necessary. After losing to Raditz, Goku asked Krillin and Roshi to help him before Piccolo arrived. Goku also said he was planning to teach Gohan or Vegeta the Fusion Dance if they were still alive. Vegeta should have some knowledge of teamwork since he conquered planets with other Saiyans and the whole point of Raditz coming to Earth to pick up Goku. They underestimated Kid Buu and destroyed the Potara but that was the final battle. Since the series ended and jumped ten years, I assumed they learned from that and there wasn't any pressing development left for them.

I don't think it was a big deal since not too much time was spent on it. I assume the "lesson" is over now since they've worked together in the last few arcs. If it wasn't brought up that they needed to learn it, I wouldn't have thought what happened in Broly would've been unexpected since it's similar to what happened in GT and I thought that made sense for a post-Buu saga story.

[TheQuestioner]

I would say the main issues are that he still is obsessed with Goku (to an extent at least) and overall acts very stupid in the manga by literally forgetting Moro's magic. I understand he has always been flawed but these two bother me heavily. One can regress, but the issue is Vegeta doesn't seem like he wants to change his obsession. Hell, he seems to be completely ignorant of how much of a detriment it is to his character. Him acknowledging his obsession and realizing how flawed his thinking has always been is just forgotten at this point in the manga from what I can tell. Regression isn't necessarily bad, in here it is handled bad though. But otherwise, I think he is ok.