Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 114 - GT 59-63

[Koitsukai]

I agree Goku's excuse isn't bulletproof, yet it isn't devoid of sense either.

The last two threats were looking for him, Freeza because he was too soft to take him out on Namek, and the androids came to be because he went all ‘fighting is fun’ instead of taking care of the threat, and the rest of the cast who are much more pragmatic than he is, were following his lead.

He feels he is the cause of every recent threat, it doesn’t matter if he’s right (he sorta is, in absolute terms they are after him, aren’t they?), all that matters is if he feels that way. And he says he does.
Characters don't need to be right all the time, their feelings and sensations do not need to match the actual reality, they need to be consistent with what they have experienced, and they are. So what if he was wrong? he feels with him gone, androids and aliens coming to look for him would stop. Plus he is fucking dead, he is not just leaving because, he got killed. Again.

I actually see more sense in finally coming to terms with being dead after being killed twice rather than the official explanation.

[Jord]

Gero was mad at Goku for destroying the RRA but if Goku didn't defeat the RRA the whole dragon world would eventually live under a nazi-like regime. Isn't much better either.

[WittyUsername]

Blaming him for the artificial humans existing doesn’t make any sense, unless the idea is that it was wrong of him to stop the RRA in the first place.

It does make sense, because the only reason they exist in the first place is due to Goku. It doesn't really matter what Goku's intentions were. Right or wrong, his actions are what led to Gero creating the Androids.

The world would be safer without him? He’s the one who stopped bad guys like the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo Daimao. Those people were doing bad things regardless of Goku’s existence.

They would be doing bad things without Goku, yes, but *with* Goku they end up doing even worse things. Because of Goku, the RRA led to Gero and Cell. Because of Goku, Piccolo Daimao led to Ma Junior. And so on. The point is that Goku just attracts bad guys. His pure heart and unique abilities are what makes him a target and puts the Earth into jeopardy time and time again.

Ma Junior did nowhere near the kind of damage to the world that Piccolo Daimao did, and he eventually became a good guy anyway. And if Goku hadn’t stopped the RRA in the first place, the world would’ve been screwed regardless. The bottom line is that I don’t understand how Goku could look at that and go “the world would be safer without me.”

Let’s be real, Toriyama was just looking for an excuse to keep Goku dead so that Gohan could be the new main character, and he backtracked on that in the very next arc anyway.

[Lukmendes]

My personal theory is Shen Long and Goku had a chat inside Goku's head while he was dying in that ditch, and made a deal of some sort.

Yeah, a deal must've happened at some point, and it's deliberatedly kept vague on when and how.

Hell, Goku and Nova had a whole strategy going on with Goku already being aware that Nova isn't evil, that means they had a chat at some point after Goku swallowed the 4 star dragon ball, but at no point does it look like Goku had a talk with him, meaning that, the talk with Shenlong could've happened before the ditch too.

The only thing we can say for sure is that a talk happened, because Goku in episode 64 has a line saying "it's that time already?", I do like the theory mentioned earlier that Goku swallowing 4 star dragon ball is how he could talk with Shenlong.

That aside, it's worth noting that there's an old writers' trick that, as long as a story emotionally works, people will forgive the logic not really working out. The Cell Games makes no sense logically, from any angle really, but it emotionally WORKS, so you just don't give a shit.

I don't really see how Cell games works emotionally, since Gohan suddenly becomes a pacifist when that wasn't established or even hinted at before (He only ever avoided fighting out of fear, when that wasn't an issue, he never showed any qualms about fighting), and the story ending with Goku deciding to not stay around since he's apparently the reason villains show up, despite how the lack of his presence fucked Trunks' world, and the now established pacifist Gohan has to be a protector everyone can rely on now... Yeah, I don't think it works lol.

How does the Cell Games not make sense logically?

As for the GT ending, I don't think that it's a case of the logic not working so much as it's that the logic is vague or missing pieces. It's ambiguous, and intentionally so. I think that the cryptic nature of the ending actually serves to amplify the emotional aspect of story.

Yeah, and the vagueness by itself can be annoying, I'm not saying we have to know all the details about what's going on, but at least an explanation at all could work, and if someone doesn't like such vagueness, it's perfectly fair to not like the ending.

How does Cell suddenly learn to teleport?

I pointed this out to a friend, and said that Cell could've learned earlier too since he saw Goku teleporting twice, and the friend said that he always thought that the reason Cell learned it in that moment is because he was dragged along the teleport.

Obviously it's just a headcanon to fill up a Toriyama plot hole, but I can find it to be an okay explanation for it, and can explain why he didn't learn it earlier.

Why does Goku appear briefly next to Gohan during the beam struggle?

Symbolism.

How does Piccolo's ability to regrow an arm turn into Cell being able to regenerate his entire body if even a tiny part of it remains?

Honestly, they could've said that it's a mix of Piccolo's and Freeza's cells that makes Cell so hard to kill, but then Toriyama decided to say that Piccolo is that durable, and showed as such when he regenerates off-screen after Trunks broke him as a statue in Boo saga.

Logically, these things don't make sense. But you accept them, because the story works emotionally. They're plotholes, the kinds of things CinemaSins parades around as criticism; it's fun to poke these holes, but the story isn't bad because of these logical holes, the story just works.

Constant plot holes can make a story less enjoyable though.

I also don’t see a problem in Goku deciding he’s had enough after being the reason the saiyans came to Earth, why Freeza came to Earth and why all these androids were created. He died for the second time, also, he got his second chance a long time ago and it just ended. I don’t see a logical problem here, there’s somebody even stronger than himself to take care of those kind of threats that were actually after him to begin with. It's not outta the blue either, Bulma hinted at that earlier on.

I can see people not liking all these stuff, but it does make sense.

But Goku isn't to blame for all of those people coming to Earth, and Future Trunks' world shows exactly what happens when he's not around, it's a dumb point he made, and Gohan is a recently established as a pacifist, so Goku thinking he can take care of Earth now is also dumb.

They would be doing bad things without Goku, yes, but *with* Goku they end up doing even worse things. Because of Goku, the RRA led to Gero and Cell. Because of Goku, Piccolo Daimao led to Ma Junior. And so on. The point is that Goku just attracts bad guys. His pure heart and unique abilities are what makes him a target and puts the Earth into jeopardy time and time again.

He's not at fault for what other people do, and even if he's to blame for the villains coming to Earth (Which's definitely not something I agree with, it's basically victim blaming), their defeat happens at the very least because he's around, not in spite of it.

King Piccolo was freed because Pilaf's gang realized they suck and they brought him out, Goku is the one who killed him, Piccolo comes around and is evil too, Goku stops him, Raditz comes to Earth to find Goku, Goku and Piccolo beat his ass, Nappa and Vegeta come to Earth because Raditz told them about the dragon balls, Goku defeats Nappa and cripples Vegeta, Freeza learned of the dragon balls because of Vegeta, who learned of 'em from Raditz, Goku is the one who defeats Freeza, Gero is butthurt and made androids and Cell to kill Goku, Goku is the one who trained the guy who killed Cell.

While his presence can unwillingly cause horrible people to show up, and that is definitely a pattern in DB, he's always there in some way to help stop shit too, and Future Trunks' world shows that, even with Goku dead, the threats ain't gonna stop showing up.

And then there's Red Ribbon Army and Boo, who exist and are threats with 0% connection to Goku besides breathing oxygen, and Goku stops them anyways, so he may bring villains around without the intention of doing so, is generally help to stop them, and then he also helps to stop threats unrelated to him.

So yeah, at least it can be considered a "Bad with him around, even worse if he's not" situation lol.

[Koitsukai]

I also don’t see a problem in Goku deciding he’s had enough after being the reason the saiyans came to Earth, why Freeza came to Earth and why all these androids were created. He died for the second time, also, he got his second chance a long time ago and it just ended. I don’t see a logical problem here, there’s somebody even stronger than himself to take care of those kind of threats that were actually after him to begin with. It's not outta the blue either, Bulma hinted at that earlier on.

I can see people not liking all these stuff, but it does make sense.

But Goku isn't to blame for all of those people coming to Earth, and Future Trunks' world shows exactly what happens when he's not around, it's a dumb point he made, and Gohan is a recently established as a pacifist, so Goku thinking he can take care of Earth now is also dumb.

I think it's less 'what's objectively true' and more 'what Goku feels about all of this'.
Every year somebody new comes knocking at the door and the world is put in jeopardy and all they want is for Goku to be dead. And that ended up happening. He is finally dead, so let's see if Bulma is right, let's give it a shot, I'm dead (again...), I shouldnt' have been alive but I was, now I'm dead, again, maybe it's time to let go.
He can feel responsible for the threats, he can feel exhausted, he can feel like death is ok after dying twice. We don't have to agree with him, but that's how he feels, that's what one of his friends thinks, so there are reasons for him to buy that. My point is there is logic in Goku thinking that way, even if it's not entirely true.

And to be fair, if he didn't come back from the dead, Buu probably wouldn't have been a thing. And they never had so many consecutive years of peace, but then he comes back just for one day and in a couple of hours, all hell breaks loose, lol, Goku you dog.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

There was a time post Cell arc where Toriyama was actually intending in regard to Goku with his second death for that to be the end of the story in terms of him and things would continue onward with Gohan at the helm only yeeeaaah....then he realized not long after it wasn't going to work because Gohan wasn't built up as a character writing wise in such a way that he could seamlessly take over the protagonist role from his old man. Eventually by the time he got partway into the Buu arc he'd changed his mind and by other means Goku comes back (then seemingly goes back to his permanent after life in the Next World after the one day is up) only to be granted another way to return to life. Yes, there was actually a point in the story where he was meant to remain dead after the second time around but then Toriyama realized he couldn't make it work out long term.

[Lukmendes]

I think it's less 'what's objectively true' and more 'what Goku feels about all of this'.
Every year somebody new comes knocking at the door and the world is put in jeopardy and all they want is for Goku to be dead. And that ended up happening. He is finally dead, so let's see if Bulma is right, let's give it a shot, I'm dead (again...), I shouldnt' have been alive but I was, now I'm dead, again, maybe it's time to let go.
He can feel responsible for the threats, he can feel exhausted, he can feel like death is ok after dying twice. We don't have to agree with him, but that's how he feels, that's what one of his friends thinks, so there are reasons for him to buy that. My point is there is logic in Goku thinking that way, even if it's not entirely true.

Even if it makes sense for Goku, it doesn't make sense for other characters to not talk about this, the closest thing to a disagreement is Gohan disagreeing when Goku says Gohan is more reliable (Even then that's probably insecurity, or just him wanting any excuse for Goku to not be dead), but everyone else accepts what Goku says, or says nothing, that specially stands out when Future Trunks is there and he says nothing.

That scene plays out like Goku's point is right, Goku is a doom magnet so he's out, but if you keep the arc itself in mind (Which, even though its villains only exist because Gero is butthurt at Goku, their targets don't stop at Goku), and if you remember that DB didn't start with Z, and that RRA was threatening the world without Goku's being a factor, then this point just doesn't work.

And to be fair, if he didn't come back from the dead, Buu probably wouldn't have been a thing. And they never had so many consecutive years of peace, but then he comes back just for one day and in a couple of hours, all hell breaks loose, lol, Goku you dog.

I mean, point is that Babidi came to Earth and was killing people, and Goku wasn't even a blimp in his radar, he's a threat that has nothing to do with Goku, and showed up anyways.

Though without Goku being around, Boo saga would at least not have Boo's awakening be a speedrun... I don't think Vegeta would go to the tournament if Goku didn't go, so he'd take longer to be a factor in it, I'm not sure Shin would paralyze Gohan at all, which would make the search for Babidi take a while... They eventually would find Babidi, but it'd probably take forever, by then if Gohan manages to defeat Dabura, it's over lol.

It is definitely a pattern that Goku existing makes shit worse because he indirectly starts domino effects, King Piccolo was freed because Pilaf's gang wanted to conquer the world and Goku kept getting in their way of collecting the dragon balls, Raditz only came to Earth because of him, Nappa, Vegeta and Freeza only learned of dragon balls because Raditz came to Earth, Freeza attacked Earth because he was butthurt at Goku, Gero did everything because he was butthurt at Goku, Boo awakened earlier because Vegeta was butthurt at Goku having SS2 and realizing Goku is the stronger one, Beerus came to Earth because he wanted to learn of the Super Saiyan God and Goku being stronger than Freeza made Beerus wonder if he is the Super Saiyan God, Freeza resurrected, became super strong, and came to Earth because he was butthurt at Goku, Zamasu stole Goku's body and went on killing spees in the Future timeline because he learned that a mortal like Goku is that strong, and at least in the anime because he has god power (Though that one is really questionable regardless of the version, since gods of destruction are likely mortals who become gods, though maybe that's not the case everytime, but it's still weird he doesn't at least know about Beerus and Champa), ToP only happened because Goku asked Zeno for a tournament, and if Future Trunks' timeline is any hint, Zeno had no plans of erasing that many timelines, and maybe what caused the change was Goku bringing Future Zeno to Zeno, Broly was only found and brought to Earth because Freeza was resurrected, and that only happened because of ToP, and Moro was only freed and had his youth restored because of what happened in Namek...

The paragraph above ended up being way longer than I expected, but point is, there is definitely a pattern about Goku's very presence causing a bunch of chain of events that fuck over everything because his very existence at least nudge a villain into trying to torment Earth, and it's surprising RRA, and Babidi, are exceptions, even then, Goku's own presence caused Babidi to wake up earlier lol.