Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

[Magnificent Ponta]

We’ll probably end up with a UI Goku who can embrace and derive strength from his emotions again. From the reader perspective as well, a Goku who has to strip away elements of his characterization to use his strongest techniques is a tough hurdle in continued serialization.

I'd like to take this observation one step further and key into one particular possibility, just to throw it out there.

The last time Goku operated with a complex of being authentically himself as 'Son Goku', being authentically in tune with himself as a Saiyan, being connected to his heritage generally and fatefully linked with his father in particular, being able to draw strength from the power of his emotions, and being absolutely determined to survive was when he first became a Super Saiyan. In fact, all those elements appear together in Chapter 327 (the Bardock-specific element latterly, through Toyotarou's own artwork on that scene). It also might be worth noting that this was the last time Goku was called upon to answer the question of what he is (in Chapter 319, on that particular point). While lots of other characters have become Super Saiyans, it still remains something peculiarly associated with Goku: he is the Super Saiyan. We've already had Vegeta's curious observation that Ultra Instinct is more precise when allied to a Super Saiyan form, but while we've seen Goku use it in conjunction with Base and the God forms, we haven't actually seen him use it with SSj (he used SSj in place of Ultra Instinct in Chapter 72). So we might be looking at a true mastered 'fusion' of Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan, rather than simply the use of Ultra Instinct when in various Super Saiyan forms (something like this was suggested in a few threads quite early on in the arc)?

Of course, this possibility raises the spectre of SSj Bardock, by extension/connection within the story, regarding which I'm...not enthusiastic. But it could at least have a proper rationale if it connected the threads of Goku's original influence on Bardock awakening an instinct that made him fight in an absolutely determined way to protect the others and survive himself, which in turn allowed him to touch greater power than he could attain under any other circumstance (as a Super Saiyan - which in turn might explain why he thought he might be able to resist Freeza at the end of his life, in a similarly critical situation). So, sort of Jack Bz's suggestions 7 and 1, by way of batistabus's comments on instinct. I'd be a little surprised if Toriyama acquiesced to a move quite like that by writing it into an outline, but from the perspective of the franchise as a whole, Bardock being occasionally a Super Saiyan has been the status quo for over a decade, I guess - and from a storytelling perspective, it'd at least not simply be a flat, ultra-contrived case of 'Goku is a Super Saiyan because his dad was a Super Saiyan and a super kewl dewd', like Episode of Bardock was going for.

I'm really wondering how Elec will act when Gas inevitably falls. I assume he has planned for Gas' failure, and might even be betting on it as part of a different plan. Will Elec toss him aside like Vegeta did to Nappa? Will he show genuine concern for his brother? If this chapter is flashback heavy, we probably won't know until the end of Chapter 84 at the soonest.

Also, while I think Seven-three has been well utilized already, I'm more open to the idea of him coming back, but mostly because he has been regenerating this whole time (which is shown to us). He'd certainly be useful for Elec, especially if he can't count on Gas anymore. I'd like to see Seven-three be used against Freeza, but I don't think this arc has room for Freeza at this point.

I get the feeling that whatever the case might be with Gas, it probably isn't something he or Elec are unaware of or haven't planned for. Both Gas and Elec know the deal with the Cerealian Dragon Balls, since Granolah so obligingly laid out the issue with wishing to be the #1 in the Universe back in Chapter 70 - so they should both expect it, in this case. And Gas pointedly told Goku in the last Chapter that he does everything, and would do anything, for Elec - it's possible he's agreed to give up his life for the bigger plan of making the Heeters supreme (and might be one reason why he had reservations about it initially - maybe he thought he could do it without having to die). So he might be a twistedly consenting accessory to Elec's manipulations, rather than someone just getting cast off.

For me, the really intriguing questions aren't what the 10 questions for Zuno were (I agree that this has probably served its purpose by this point - the interstitial joke that Macki could have as many 10s as she wants probably shows up that it doesn't matter what specific questions were asked), or how Gas might react to learning he's out of time, but rather:

1. What specifically is Elec trying to get Gas to do before time runs out (he's mentioned it a couple of times now)?, and
2. What was Elec's "urgent errand" before he showed up to unseal Gas's instincts, and what impact is that going to have on the arc outcome?

I can't even guess at what the answer to question 1 might be, but question 2 might lead back to a quick re-gathering of the Dragon Balls for one more wish. If I were Elec, I'd exploit the escalation of power here to make one more wish for #1 in the Universe: for Freeza. If the end goal is to secure their business and succeed Freeza in an orderly transition (thus acquiring his army in the process), then positioning yourself as apparently a faithful benefactor of the now-strongest and presumably-grateful-to-be-back-on-top Freeza (who you know you've actually just signed the death warrant of by so doing, sooner or later) is probably the best way of achieving that goal.

So, yeah, some Out-of-Left-Field suggestions, just for the fun of it.

[batistabus]

I guess a major questions is: do we see the final moment of the battle between Bardock and Gas in Gas' flashback from 80? The scene certainly seems like a climactic moment, so for the sake of this post, let's assume it is. We see Bardock shrouded in an aura we haven't seen him in before. I guess it looks slightly different from the typical aura? To be fair, we haven't seen manga Bardock fight at full power yet (in DBS or in Minus), so we can't be sure if that's a special aura or a generic one. Gas still has his horns, so if this is the final blow, chances are those aren't his weakness. Bardock is missing his tail...but he's also missing the bottom flaps to his armor, so I can't be confident that Toyotaro didn't just mess up the design for this scene, and I'm not sure what that would mean anyway. DBS isn't written by the seat of Toriyama's pants like the original series, so I'm more inclined to read into these kinds of details (like how Moro's Merus gem panned out), but mistakes happen.

So if the aura is special, it might represent the power of Bardock's instinct. But again, it might just be "a moment" from the fight, not the final blow.

[Mr Baggins]

We’ll probably end up with a UI Goku who can embrace and derive strength from his emotions again.

Dear god no. Please, no.

Rage boosting in general is a boring trope perpetuated by supplementary materials and adaptations more than the original manga, but also, that's a terribly reductive direction to go in both narratively and retrospectively when the whole point of Ultra Instinct is that it uses the opposite principle to Super Saiyan; it's just regressing Goku's development throughout the previous two arcs, not to mention UI would now mentally be pretty much like every other transformation.

Count me out if this happens.

From the reader perspective as well, a Goku who has to strip away elements of his characterization to use his strongest techniques is a tough hurdle in continued serialization.

Is that really true, though? If anything, his fight against Granolah shows how much of his personality in UI is preserved with continued mastery. We don't need emotional strength power-ups or whatever for that.

[OLKv3]

Would be funny if Elec ends up the strongest and just leaves. Like, he fulfilled his plan and has no interest in destruction, just wants to rule without anyone being a threat, so he just flies off and the next arc starts. Elec becomes the evil but fair ruler of the universe until a future arc has Goku take him down

That's definitely not happening

[Cipher]

Dear god no. Please, no.

Rage boosting in general is a boring trope perpetuated by supplementary materials and adaptations more than the original manga, but also, that's a terribly reductive direction to go in both narratively and retrospectively when the whole point of Ultra Instinct is that it uses the opposite principle to Super Saiyan; it's just regressing Goku's development throughout the previous two arcs, not to mention UI would now mentally be pretty much like every other transformation.

Who said rage? That’s just one aspect. Emotionally driven fighting—from sheer joy to anger—has been not just a tool for Goku but a fundamental part of his character and personality from square one. He’s struggled to work it into UI, and this arc has further driven home how much trying to keep himself constantly tempered clashes with who he is. The series has been driving home how important individual variations and playing to individual strengths are in training, so it seems like a ripe avenue from both a martial-arts progression and character standpoint. And the calm, unfeeling master is as much a trope as anything—one Goku’s never much fit into. He loves excitement and whims. It’s pretty much the capstone focus of the Boo arc, in the climax of the original run.

Re: Elec’s plans, and Magnicient Ponta’s theories: An additional wish on Freeza’s “behalf” would be interesting, but we know he can’t have made it yet, as the sky hasn’t darkened again. He could simply have the DBs on his person though. But even then, is that the most logical plan? No guarantee Freeza would take kindly to a wish that affects him without his consent, and that also leaves Elec bequeathed an army (assuming he even gets it) he’s unable to control as soon as anyone stronger than him pops up. Would troops remain loyal simply on the grounds of Freeza’s dying wishes?

Re: Super Saiyan Bardock: If—and I don’t see this happening at all—he triggered it, he either doesn’t remember or misinterprets what it is, as he’s as convinced as everyone else it’s a myth by the time he sends Goku off (“Minus,” Broly). Unless he’s just saying that, of course.

Is that really true, though? If anything, his fight against Granolah shows how much of his personality in UI is preserved with continued mastery. We don't need emotional strength power-ups or whatever for that.

He’s basically silent against Jiren, Moro and Granolah in the silver-haired form, and Gas calls him out for not having his heart in the fight while trying to utilize it in lower ones. The extent to which emotions came out in any lower forms versus Granolah would probably be seen as a failure—but even then, note the switch to calm and silent Goku when he really starts trying to utilize it.

[OLKv3]

The panel with Bardock throwing the ki ball is a really cool angle. And Toyo finally used a new dynamic angle for the atatata, which is cool

Of course my praise will prob be short lived when someone shows me what he copied to make these

[Mr Baggins]

He loves excitement and whims. It’s pretty much the capstone focus of the Boo arc, in the climax of the original run.

I'd argue he displays those exact traits while fighting Granolah -- both while utilizing UI in lesser forms and during his short conversation with Granolah in the silver-haired form. He's still calm, but he's not completely stoic like before.

If he starts acting even more emotional to trigger some new variation of Ultra Instinct, I don't know how he'd behave in that manner without displaying particularly salient emotions, i.e. wrath. That's not a path I see Toyotaro treading without completely reversing course, which is lame and regressive.

On the other hand, if his expressions are more excitable or something (kinda like Super Saiyan God, but with silver hair) I won't argue with that. It would still detract from the uniqueness of the form though.

And the calm, unfeeling master is as much a trope as anything

In Dragon Ball, it's not something you see very often, and in the manga's ToP arc, it's written in a way that ties into Goku's sensibilities as a martial artist. I quite appreciate it for what it is.

[Grimlock]

Hey, a bit more to the lore. It seems Freeza had been planning to destroy the Saiyans (at least) two years in advance. Since the Heeters know about it by that point in time. That is, going by what's been shown so far and whatnot...

So, in the end, Monaito is going to wish for Bardock to be stronger or Gas to be weaker? Hopefully that's not it.

[Xeogran]

So, in the end, Monaito is going to wish for Bardock to be stronger or Gas to be weaker? Hopefully that's not it.

Monaito said he doesn't know how Bardock won so this can't be it
At some point he's gonna lose consciousness. Maybe he summons Toronbo but Bardock makes the wish himself?

[mute_proxy]

Somekind of potential unlock through a wish? Namekians do know of potential unlocking

[Yuji]

He’s basically silent against Jiren, Moro and Granolah in the silver-haired form, and Gas calls him out for not having his heart in the fight while trying to utilize it in lower ones. The extent to which emotions came out in any lower forms versus Granolah would probably be seen as a failure—but even then, note the switch to calm and silent Goku when he really starts trying to utilize it.

That's not exactly true. He's very disappointed with Moro and keeps moralizing throughout the battle. He let his emotions seep through. Quite reminiscent of the final moments in his fight against Freeza on Namek, actually.

[FortuneSSJ]

Seems like it's gonna another win chapter. Hoping Bardock beats Gas in a satisfying way.

[Mr Baggins]

That's not exactly true. He's very disappointed with Moro and keeps moralizing throughout the battle. He let his emotions seep through. Quite reminiscent of the final moments in his fight against Freeza on Namek, actually.

I'll also add that a delicate balance was struck there: Goku's character was retained (albeit in a calm state) but if he got too emotional, Ultra Instinct would be rendered ineffective. The Moro arc was exceedingly clear about this.

UI Sign was already the "passionate" version of UI, so if the manga goes this route, attentive readers would inevitably just end up wondering why that wasn't the strongest form to begin with. At best, Toyotaro would have to go out of his way to explain the discrepancy.

[Cipher]

That's not exactly true. He's very disappointed with Moro and keeps moralizing throughout the battle. He let his emotions seep through. Quite reminiscent of the final moments in his fight against Freeza on Namek, actually.

His demeanor still never wavers from stoic/collected though, and there’s hardly any dialogue save for his one bit of preaching before the fight has wrapped up.

The arc has drilled in the fact that the emotionless calm that sees Whis into perpetual UI (and has marked Goku’s prior uses of it) is not what best suits Goku, and I don’t know how to call that anything but the explicit text of the arc. I’m not suggesting a return to rage-induced power-ups, but simply UI in which Goku can display and benefit from his full range of character. That includes the joyful goof we see fight Boo in the climax of DB.

[Skar]

I'm really curious how the arc ends. I imagine there won't be much changing in terms of status quo and characterization. Whatever Goku learns about Bardock might be only relevant to this arc and not brought up again. I don't mean that as criticism or anything and just that we probably don't have to worry about it having major ramifications for Goku as a character.

[TKA]

All the signs kinda point to that though

Which is exactly why I'm hoping it isn't that. This arc is trite enough as things stand.

I'll also add that a delicate balance was struck there: Goku's character was retained (albeit in a calm state) but if he got too emotional, Ultra Instinct would be rendered ineffective. The Moro arc was exceedingly clear about this.

Writing is most interesting with limitations. Establishing this rule with Goku and writing him with it in mind will lead to a more interesting story and show his growth as a character. As one of my favorite creators often says, "Restrictions breed creativity."

I'd also like to add that Ultra Instinct is the only transformation in Super that can match up to Super Saiyan 1 and 2 in terms of how the narrative built up to them. It is defined by its counter nature to the super saiyan forms and other power ups. To take away the thing that makes it different from the others by having Goku circumvent the requirement for it just makes it another hair color.

[emperior]

My absolute weird and unlikely prediction is that Goku gets temporarily teleported from the present to the past through some Cerealian Dragon Balls-related shenanigans, and he is instrumental in helping out his father win the fight.

It is the kind of fan service I would not be too surprised to see, considering how heavily requested a meeting (and team up) of the two is. They may also not get another chance to do this. Or maybe Goku will just enter Bardock’s head and coach him throughout the fight, never revealing his identity, or even take over his body temporarily.

[Cipher]

My absolute weird and unlikely prediction is that Goku gets temporarily teleported from the present to the past through some Cerealian Dragon Balls-related shenanigans, and he is instrumental in helping out his father win the fight.

It is the kind of fan service I would not be too surprised to see, considering how heavily requested a meeting (and team up) of the two is. They may also not get another chance to do this. Or maybe Goku will just enter Bardock’s head and coach him throughout the fight, never revealing his identity, or even take over his body temporarily.

If Monaito (or someone) saved Bardock by summoning present-day Goku via the Dragon Balls, what happened to Bardock in all those timelines where Goku dies far earlier?

Whatever the wish is, it logically can't have anything to do with Goku being alive in the present.

[Magnificent Ponta]

An additional wish on Freeza’s “behalf” would be interesting, but we know he can’t have made it yet, as the sky hasn’t darkened again. He could simply have the DBs on his person though. But even then, is that the most logical plan? No guarantee Freeza would take kindly to a wish that affects him without his consent, and that also leaves Elec bequeathed an army (assuming he even gets it) he’s unable to control as soon as anyone stronger than him pops up. Would troops remain loyal simply on the grounds of Freeza’s dying wishes?

It would definitely be a high-risk move, and its key flaw would almost certainly be in underestimating how self-centred Freeza is (though it wouldn't be the first time in the arc that Elec has miscalculated on the basis of how he thinks other players - even ones he knows quite well - will act), but I don't know that it would be illogical, exactly. If Goku surpasses Gas all ends up, I'm not sure what other recourse Elec has in trying to achieve his original stated goal, having played his hand so openly and ranged the 3 other strongest people in the Universe against him right now. And there would be good reasons to suppose that this move might resolve his current problem and advance the overall plan at the same time:

• Manipulation with relatively predictable immediate effects. From the drafts, we know that Elec already knew Freeza wanted to destroy the Saiyans before he did it, so even without knowing the specific beef that exists between Freeza and Goku, it's probably logical enough for Elec to assume that Freeza would be happy to finish the job of destroying a hated enemy - if he's sure he can win, that is. Which would require the greatest power in the Universe. That, then, takes care of Goku and Vegeta - the main thorns in Elec's side. And probably makes Freeza pretty happy.
• Aftermath that removes the strongest obstacles. Granolah, Gas, and Freeza himself are the remaining issues standing in the way from a strength perspective, and if they're all the subject of the same wish, then they're all on borrowed time - once they're gone, who challenges Freeza's army (or its owner)? Anyone left who's strong enough to imperil the position of the Freeza Force, isn't really a Universal player (so, probably isn't a factor). In that sense, the operation is self-cleaning, sweeping the strongest from the board. So all that's left is to take ownership.
• Transition. This can only really happen by orderly transition, which seems to require Elec to position himself as a loyal insider - if he could've done it any other way, then Elec would've acquired Freeza's army in the 15-ish years that Freeza was dead. It doesn't seem more logical to suggest that Freeza's army would fall in line simply as a result of a Heeter assault that ends up with Freeza getting killed by Gas; they'd be just as likely to fragment and descend into the kind of chaos they experienced when Freeza died the first time around. If Elec wants the whole army as an effective force, it seems to make better sense to jockey for position and take over the whole 'legitimately'.

So, Elec would get protection, elimination of his key enemies, and legitimisation of his position in the short term, and uninterrupted 'business' opportunities as long as Freeza lives (the mid term?), and an intact army used to his presence and 'leadership' in the longer term. He loses Gas, but gains the army he wanted, and removes his key obstacles at a stroke, with a minimum of extra complication. From that perspective, the only issue is how long he might have to wait to take over (Freeza might be gifted enough to stick around for a long time), but then he'd be told that by Toronbo, as the wish-maker, so he'd be able to manoeuvre as he pleases in the meantime to secure his position.

And it's worth going back to Oracle Fish's prediction again - that the balance of the Universe is shifting because the strongest warrior will soon rise up. We know it's not Granolah or Gas in view now, and Goku was already the strongest when Oracle Fish made that prediction - so unless it's really two separate and unrelated predictions, Goku can't be that person either, because him coming out of all this as the strongest shifts no balance at all. But Freeza would fit both those elements amply - even Elec says in Chapter 68 that Freeza's revival means "The state of things in the Universe is shifting" - it's arguable that Freeza's the strongest both historically and also prospectively, because of his innate talent - to 'rise up' and actually reclaim that throne for real would truly shift the balance of things in a way that would actually make a difference to the main characters, and to us as readers.

It's just as likely to be something else completely, to be sure (guessing at plot points is like guessing riddles; there are plenty of plausible answers that satisfy the necessary conditions, but the right answer is only really 'right' because it's the predetermined answer) - but I thought I might make a more detailed case for its theoretical plausibility, if nothing else.

[Hugo Boss]

Just did a little check on Chapter 68, and Elec does make a point about the most powerful in the universe having money and intel, claiming that possessing armies would be an outdated notion of power. And he values intel more than anything, so perhaps he would wish to become the most knowledgeable person in the universe, taking Zuno’s place?