Were the fixtation on Earth after Frieza and the dropping of the Humans behind in the dust the franchise's BIG MISTAKES?

[ABED]

How do you keep the human fighters relevant without emphasizing power levels though. The Tournament of Power tried to tell us that everyone besides the power houses ( Goku,Vegeta,Freeza) brought some sort of alternative strategy to the mix but it all ultimately lead to nothing since most of the contestants were eliminated with brute force anyway.

Gohan used his intelligence, not just brute power to get that blob guy out of the ring, and what you are talking about is failure of execution as there looked to be solid strategies in play and interesting character dynamics that the writers had set up and not sufficiently followed through with.

[MasenkoHA]

How do you keep the human fighters relevant without emphasizing power levels though. The Tournament of Power tried to tell us that everyone besides the power houses ( Goku,Vegeta,Freeza) brought some sort of alternative strategy to the mix but it all ultimately lead to nothing since most of the contestants were eliminated with brute force anyway.

To say nothing of people bitching non stop of Roshi and Kuririn and Tenshinhan even being there.

[Majin Buu]

Toriyama had an editor (IIRC more than one throughout the years) to help him with getting the best story he could draw. I don't see why the editor/s couldn't say to him: "Well, that's too much like Frieza, let's scrap that and write a different villain". After all his Android Saga and Buu Saga were changed constantly till we got the final products.

There's no guarantee that those changes would result in something audiences would respond to though. Toriyama would have had to up his game as a storyteller to justify doing another space story right after the long one we just finished. That's the only way I see this scenario avoiding the "been there, done that" reception.

And I would much rather have an extended exploration of the universe than getting another "ooooh, a baddie appeared! Are you an android?? Let's fight on a wasteland or on some other remote scene of Earth cause everyone knows any villain must come to Earth or be a local scrap of metal."

You could easily call Planet Namek "Planet Wasteland". Most Dragon Ball fights take place in wastelands to limit the collateral damage. Any further off-world battles would have likely taken place in similar environments for that reason.

[Geraldo]

I still think it’s funny how the Universe Survival arc establishes that Universe 7 is the second worst managed universe, and only has 28 planets with intelligent life remaining, and it ends with Freeza being brought back to life and rebuilding his empire.

Back at the day, in 2017, the "only 28 planets left with sentient life" line was annoying as hell for me. But it was just an indirect confession that Dragon Ball Super had no interest in exploring Universe 7, so they had brought a shitty explanation for why 9 out of the 10 most capable warriors in the cosmos were from Earth. I would much rather have a fleshed out Ledgic or any other alien as a replacement for that badly written Android 17. Yuck.

[WittyUsername]

You could easily call Planet Namek "Planet Wasteland". Most Dragon Ball fights take place in wastelands to limit the collateral damage. Any further off-world battles would have likely taken place in similar environments for that reason.

Let’s be honest, the real reason so many Dragon Ball fights take place in generic looking wastelands is because it’s easier to draw. That’s why Planet Namek seemingly only has one terrain and no nighttime. Having the characters explore a detailed alien world is above Toriyama’s wheelhouse.

[Kunzait_83]

I'm going to go arc by arc and do a quick rundown of Dragon Ball's various premises, gimmicks, tropes, and permutations in each of its major storylines for purposes of making a broader point here:

1) Pilaf/Hunt for Dragon Balls: Introduction to initial core cast and world. Holdover from Toriyama's Dr. Slump period where DB is just straight up "what if gag manga but Journey to the West?".

2) 21st Tenkaichi Budokai: First training and tournament arcs, establishing a baseline for the rest of the series going forward. Establishes Dragon Ball as firmly a wacky, whimsical kung fu/wuxia story in a broad sense, and not just a "Dr. Slumpian Journey to the West" spoof. Also the first arc where Goku must explicitly "surpass his master" to move forward.

3) Red Ribbon Army: First "evil empire" story arc (a wuxia staple in itself), showing that the series' martial arts storytelling will not be solely restricted to tournaments and the like, but will also sometimes globetrot and have more quest-based narratives. Also first arc to have multiple major villains who pose a real challenge and threat to Goku and the cast.

4) Uranai Baba: Tournament arc, but given a gag manga-ish "monster mash" reskin.

5) 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai: Tournament arc, but one where the core cast of martial artists is vastly expanded upon, and the first to truly introduce the idea of rival martial arts schools and disciplines.

6) Piccolo Daimao: First arc to bring demons and shades of otherwoldly Bangsian mysticism into the mix (at least in a more serious/dramatic fashion after Baba teased at it comedically). Also the first revenge-based storyline and the first to introduce a deadly "forbidden technique" that the heroes must try and master to conquer the villain.

7) 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai: Tournament continuation of the previous non-tournament based arc, but with a key twist: our first serious "time jump" in the series, showing that its willing to move the passage of time forward significantly and allow the cast to visibly and noticeably age. Time does not stay still in this universe, and generational "passing of the torch" is now a theme.


Ok, so far we're not even delving into Z territory here, and just in original DB alone we have basically taken each of the 7 or so major story arcs to establish the following major martial arts fantasy/wuxia narrative motifs as central themes of the whole series:

- Reference to classic wuxia literature (Journey to the West) as a basis
- Training and growth under great martial arts masters (and the student eventually surpassing them)
- Martial arts tournaments to test and prove their skill and mettle as fighters
- Dictatorial evil empires who bully and harass the average peasantry and must be conquered by the brave heroic martial arts fighters
- A willingness/eagerness to add whimsical nonsense and culturally foreign (i.e. Western) skins and aesthetics to the proceedings
- Rival martial arts schools, styles, and disciplines engaged in feuds and vendettas with one another
- Revenge against injustice as a key motivation alongside the desire to grow and improve
- Supernatural/paranormal creatures suggesting demons, deities, and an expansive afterlife
- An expansive cast that visibly ages and progresses as the story moves forward, suggesting generations of fighters

We've basically already taken on a TON of the most standard, classic martial arts fantasy/wuxia narrative building blocks, and have even tweaked them a bunch: so now we take what we've established, and get even MORE postmodern and nutty with them as we head into DBZ...

8 ) Saiya-jin: Our first serious introduction of aliens and outter space. In this arc the aliens come to earth to fight out heroes at their home. Also the introduction of Gohan/the concept of the original cast having children as they age and their kids moving into major character positions in the story. Also the first arc to actually show us the afterlife and the pantheon of gods and begin to explore them after having them merely be teased at and mentioned/suggested in the previous two arcs. Otherwise using many of the fundamentals we've built on previously: training under and surpassing masters, learning new forbidden techniques, tournament-like combat structure, etc.

9) Namek/Freeza: Flips the script on the previous arc: now instead of space aliens coming to Earth to fight our heroes, our heroes journey out into space to fight the aliens on another planet. Also uses the globetrotting, quest-based "evil empire" narrative of the Red Ribbon arc, but simply places it in outter space among aliens and ups the seriousness/violence levels about a couple dozen fold.

10) Artificial Humans/Cell: So we've spent two whole, giant arcs exhausting space aliens and space opera: what's the other major, notable sci fi theme we can use to reskin our wacky, ludicrously demented martial arts epic? Mad scientists, robots, and mutants naturally! Also time travel for good measure! So now we get all our core martial arts fantasy/wuxia themes we've established throughout the series prior: intense training, learning new secret forbidden fighting techniques, revenge for past injustice, rival factions and fighting disciplines, the cast continuing to age and change, as well as both tournament-like fights and even a LITERAL actual tournament to end the storyline on... and we just apply them to literally the remaining sci fi aesthetics and tropes left over that haven't yet been exhausted in the previous two arcs.

11) Majin Boo: Now that we've covered: A) space aliens, B) space exploration and alien worlds, C) mad scientists, D) killer robots and mutants, and E) time travel... we've exhausted a LOT of the major core sci fi tropes you can go for. What else from our previous concepts and themes have we not explored more closely? The afterlife and its gods. Its been teased at, and its played a relatively notable side role a couple of times: but its yet to be the central focus of a whole arc. Until now that is. As we move time ever more forward, age the cast ever more heavily, and have them produce ever more children who are growing into the next generation of fighters (while exploring ever more extreme and intensive methods of martial arts training and ever more extravagant and superhuman secret fighting techniques), we finally have an entire storyline where we explore the DB universe's afterlife and astral cosmos (after having already explored much of its mortal universe).

So now we've covered the whole original core run of the series: and over the course of 11 years and 11 story arcs, we've managed to explore and cover certainly not all, but a LOT (a sizable majority even) of the martial arts fantasy/wuxia genre's core fundamentals and permutations across its literal thousands of years' long history. AND as if that weren't enough, we've even dipped this ancient and decidedly Eastern fantasy genre into increasingly modern and ever more Western genre aesthetics and skins: namely science fiction and if not all, then a VAST assortment of its notable themes and subgenres.

But what's that? You're gluttonous and want MORE of the above! Particularly the sci fi? Particularly the alien exploration and space opera parts? One major alien planet (and maybe a few glimpses of a handful of others) and maybe around one or two dozen alien races wasn't enough to scratch that itch for you? Well fear not: Dragon Ball had you covered there literally within one year of the series initially ending its original manga run!

Thanks to an expanded anime-only run of the series, you were given a whole Grand Tour of a great many wacky, whimsically bent alien planets, races, civilizations, and cultures that populate the Dragon Ball universe. This expansion pack of the original series gave you not just one, but THREE extra story arcs that all further explore and flesh out ever more of its previously established concepts and themes:

12a) Black Star Dragon Balls/Baby: The first and by far longest of the three arcs had Goku and a few of the younger "next generation" fighters accompany him back into space to explore dozens and dozens more alien worlds and people beyond just Namek. For a classic Dragon Ball hunt no less!

13a) Super 17: As if that weren't enough, we also get a return of more mad scientists and killer robots and mutants! Only this time, we rope them in further with the series afterlife/Bangsian elements.

14a) Evil Dragons: And lastly, to give the original series run more of a proper "grand finale" sense of closure and coming full circle, we get a story arc focused entirely around the titular Dragon Ball items themselves, their internal mythos, and their relationship to the core cast for all these many years up till now.

So... yeah. Just in the series' original run in the 80s and 90s, we really covered (if not outright exhausted) a LOT of ground here.

Buuuuuuuut wait! All of that is STILL not enough for you? You want, no, you NEED MOAR? Too much is never enough for you? Well after almost 20 years or so, you now have it! We've certainly revived way more needless and more inexplicable things in this era of slavish nostalgia and unoriginality we've been locked into for the last decade or two now: why NOT Dragon Ball? Y'know, despite the fact that its covered almost EVERY possible bit of ground there was for it to have covered previously?

Well... perhaps not though! As I mentioned, while it covered almost all of the core fundamental tropes, themes, and motifs of martial arts fantasy, it didn't cover 100% all of them. There's still a few more stray, straggling Wuxia tropes left uncovered by its original 80s and 90s run for DB to mine and put its kooky Slumpian spin on. And plenty more it already did cover thoroughly enough for it to shamelessly rehash for the terminally nostalgia-addicted.

So forking off from the original run (and leaving aside our little Grand Tour expansion mentioned previously), we now have a band new expansion!

12b) Battle of Gods/Beerus and Whis: We expand on the Dragon Ball universe's afterlife cosmos with an increasingly expanded pantheon of gods! Was the Majin Boo arc's incredibly detailed and exhaustively thorough hierarchy of gods and rulers of the universe not enough for you? Here's even more! More gods, more afterlife! Oh, and we now have the Wuxia concept of heavenly/divine Ki: that's TECHNICALLY something from martial arts fantasy fiction that DB hadn't quite covered yet!

13b) Resurrection F: Uh... did you miss Freeza? Thought that his famously long, loooooong story arc wasn't enough for him and his intergalactic empire? Not even satisfied with him briefly returning as a cyborg at the very start of the Cell arc? Well... he's back! We have... more Freeza now! For some reason! Anything else noteworthy about this arc? Um... not really? Just... Freeza's back! Because!

14b) Universe 6: A new tournament arc and a brand new and promising concept for DB, one that is native to both fantasy and science fiction alike: a multiverse! We spent over a dozen story arcs across decades exploring just ONE universe in the DB world: so lets add a dozen more universes! For this arc we get just a taste of them in just a single tournament arc: but that's just a tease for things to come.

15) Goku Black: Was the convoluted, byzantine time travel of the Cell arc not enough to quench your thirst? Here's more! More time travel and lots of it! Only now that we have a whole multiverse to play with, we get to see how time travel impacts it beyond just our "main" universe.

16) Tournament of Power: After teasing at it in the previous arcs, we get our deepest dive yet into the series' multiverse. Was the Grand Tour of the DB universe's alien worlds a let down for you? Well, here's something of a do-over! We get to explore NEW alien worlds and alien races and civilizations. Well... sort of. We're less "exploring" them than we are bringing them all together into one place for a great big multiversal martial arts tournament! What's that? We just had a multiversal tournament in the arc before last? Well yeah, but this one's even BIGGER than that one! That one was just between two different universes: this one is between ALL OF THEM! Why did we need two of them? Uh... because fuck you! More Dragon Ball! Wooooo! Oh and we now have finally formally introduced Mushin/Wuxin into DB: another stray Wuxia concept it hadn't quite covered yet, so that's something.

17) Galactic Prisoner/Moro: Well... we're back to Namek! Now with Majin Boo! What's different this time? Uh... a new villain? Oh, and the Galactic Patrol! Y'know, space police! We had space criminals in the original Namek arc, so why not do it again but with space cops?

18) Granolah the Survivor: I have yet to follow this arc any, so I can't really comment on this one yet. All I know is that its apparently Freeza Empire-centric. So... more Freeza Empire.

19) DB Super Movies: Broli! But now canon! And uh... a new Red Ribbon Army! With a new Cell! And a new Gero-like mad scientist!

We uh... we might be starting to repeat ourselves a hair bit here.

But yeah. So, where does all this leave us now in 2022 with DB? We've got a nearly 40 year old martial arts fantasy franchise that's done damn near everything it could've done with itself, with its characters and premise and universe, etc. Which yes, includes exploring its alien worlds across space. At least two or three times over now.

But also: note that when the series DID focus primarily on the cast planet hopping across the galaxy and exploring DB's alien worlds and civilizations... the result was not only Dragon Ball GT, but the first and worst received chunk of GT.

Looking over the entirety of the franchise: one almost gets the sense that the planet exploration and aliens were never really the point of the series. In fact, you almost get the sense that the main thrust of the series was solid martial arts storytelling, and that the aliens and the sci fi were just one of an assortment of different aesthetic gimmicks that the series employed to keep itself fresh over the years.

And when you stray away from the martial arts and focus squarely on the aliens and planets purely for their own sake... that Dragon Ball starts to resemble itself less and less and moves away further and further from what made it appealing and from what grounded, centered, and drove its narrative in the first place.

In other words to the OP (Gerlado): you already got what you wanted (Dragon Ball devoting itself more to exploring its alien worlds and races), and multiple times at that. And people didn't just dislike it, they seem to have largely HATED it. I dunno, maybe third time's the charm and it'll be better next time? Or maybe Dragon Ball was simply never supposed to be Star Trek and instead is a kung fu fantasy series that just so happened to feature space aliens in it for a few notable arcs?

[JulieYBM]

I'm ultimately not concerned with setting. I do feel like a lot of people get bogged down in the idea that the setting matters all that much. My primary concerned is with character interactions and development, so the setting is typically just dressing in that regard. I think that one of the things that I found myself interested in by during the Tournament of Power was how the setting really lent itself to just letting characters interact and force them to do so while also developing—although that development could still be hampered by Toriyama's desire not to include much depth in his works or the animated series' production staff's desires to match Toriyama's desires in that regard. Speaking as a fan of the Caulifla & Kale couple or the way that Jiren's character ultimately developed I also very much so liked the way that the cartoon depicted the dynamic between Gokuu, #17 and Freeza. Dragon Ball Super Episode #131 is still so special in that regard and it's a first step on the sort of path that I am hoping to someday see more Dragon Ball stories go down.