Do you wish Dragon Ball had more diverse powers?
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- Gaffer Tape
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Re: Do you wish Dragon Ball had more diverse powers?
I do desperately wish that DB had more varied skillsets that would give each of its characters something with which to stand out and be useful. Yes, I love that list of abilities posted above, whet my imagination considering how Goku might counter them, and then I weep at the (likely true) response that Goku would just blow up his ki and smack the opponent around, just like he usually does.
My issue is that DB tends to have a very limited, reductive view of strength as something that can be objectively quantified. People always talk about the battle powers, but, honestly, on either side of battle powers' role in the story (although more prevalent afterwards), the mindset is very much the same: strongest guy wins. So you'd better figure out a super-powerful finishing move or pull out a glowy transformation. That's how you do it. There is very little nuance to it. Character powers up. Character is better in every conceivable way. Even Vegeta famously says that, as his power goes up, so too does his speed. But I've never, ever, ever liked the idea that who wins in a fight can be boiled down to... well, the inequality signs you see so often in strength debates. Character A>Character B. It's just so simplistic. Just think how silly that would be if you applied that to any other competitive event. I don't watch sports, so let's go with video game speedrunning. If Runner A's best time is 1:58:22 and Runner B's is 1:57:59, then, more often than not, by Dragon Ball logic, Runner B would win every time because Runner B is objectively better. But that ignores most of the things that make competition interesting. Runner B could have gotten lucky with their personal best time. One of them could get really lucky outcomes from the game. One could choke under pressure. Someone could succeed with a safer, slower route while their competitor fails a faster route. Any number of variables could come into play. That's why my favorite fights in Dragon Ball are ones like Goku vs. Tenshinhan (where the role of luck is explicitly stated) and the first Vegeta fight (where even the comparatively weak, bumbling swordsman is instrumental in exploiting a critical opening).
Now, you might say I'm also being reductive. After all, DB has examples like Super Saiyans Grade 2 and 3 that have strategic disadvantages, as well as Gohan's overconfidence against Cell getting everyone in trouble. And that is true. But how many times more often is it true that we hear that nobody else should even try because Goku (usually Goku but very rarely somebody else) is the only person strong enough to even have a chance? Where's the fun in that? Unfortunately, the momentum of Dragon Ball is seeing Goku become stronger and stronger. It is exciting, but the only way to really demonstrate that is to use the rest of the cast as measuring sticks, martial artists that Goku pulls away from. It's just inherently limiting. So, yes, I very much wish Goku wasn't all and around better than everybody else. It would be far more interesting to see someone be better at speed or stealth or any number of creative techniques that Goku just can't compete against. Aang is the Avatar, but that doesn't mean all his friends sit around and do nothing but watch him save the day. He's the best, sure, but he can't do everything himself.
Alright, yeah. That's my rant.
My issue is that DB tends to have a very limited, reductive view of strength as something that can be objectively quantified. People always talk about the battle powers, but, honestly, on either side of battle powers' role in the story (although more prevalent afterwards), the mindset is very much the same: strongest guy wins. So you'd better figure out a super-powerful finishing move or pull out a glowy transformation. That's how you do it. There is very little nuance to it. Character powers up. Character is better in every conceivable way. Even Vegeta famously says that, as his power goes up, so too does his speed. But I've never, ever, ever liked the idea that who wins in a fight can be boiled down to... well, the inequality signs you see so often in strength debates. Character A>Character B. It's just so simplistic. Just think how silly that would be if you applied that to any other competitive event. I don't watch sports, so let's go with video game speedrunning. If Runner A's best time is 1:58:22 and Runner B's is 1:57:59, then, more often than not, by Dragon Ball logic, Runner B would win every time because Runner B is objectively better. But that ignores most of the things that make competition interesting. Runner B could have gotten lucky with their personal best time. One of them could get really lucky outcomes from the game. One could choke under pressure. Someone could succeed with a safer, slower route while their competitor fails a faster route. Any number of variables could come into play. That's why my favorite fights in Dragon Ball are ones like Goku vs. Tenshinhan (where the role of luck is explicitly stated) and the first Vegeta fight (where even the comparatively weak, bumbling swordsman is instrumental in exploiting a critical opening).
Now, you might say I'm also being reductive. After all, DB has examples like Super Saiyans Grade 2 and 3 that have strategic disadvantages, as well as Gohan's overconfidence against Cell getting everyone in trouble. And that is true. But how many times more often is it true that we hear that nobody else should even try because Goku (usually Goku but very rarely somebody else) is the only person strong enough to even have a chance? Where's the fun in that? Unfortunately, the momentum of Dragon Ball is seeing Goku become stronger and stronger. It is exciting, but the only way to really demonstrate that is to use the rest of the cast as measuring sticks, martial artists that Goku pulls away from. It's just inherently limiting. So, yes, I very much wish Goku wasn't all and around better than everybody else. It would be far more interesting to see someone be better at speed or stealth or any number of creative techniques that Goku just can't compete against. Aang is the Avatar, but that doesn't mean all his friends sit around and do nothing but watch him save the day. He's the best, sure, but he can't do everything himself.
Alright, yeah. That's my rant.
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Re: Do you wish Dragon Ball had more diverse powers?
Gaffer Tape always has the best takes, their posts are always a delight.Gaffer Tape wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 8:14 pm I do desperately wish that DB had more varied skillsets that would give each of its characters something with which to stand out and be useful. Yes, I love that list of abilities posted above, whet my imagination considering how Goku might counter them, and then I weep at the (likely true) response that Goku would just blow up his ki and smack the opponent around, just like he usually does.
My issue is that DB tends to have a very limited, reductive view of strength as something that can be objectively quantified. People always talk about the battle powers, but, honestly, on either side of battle powers' role in the story (although more prevalent afterwards), the mindset is very much the same: strongest guy wins. So you'd better figure out a super-powerful finishing move or pull out a glowy transformation. That's how you do it. There is very little nuance to it. Character powers up. Character is better in every conceivable way. Even Vegeta famously says that, as his power goes up, so too does his speed. But I've never, ever, ever liked the idea that who wins in a fight can be boiled down to... well, the inequality signs you see so often in strength debates. Character A>Character B. It's just so simplistic. Just think how silly that would be if you applied that to any other competitive event. I don't watch sports, so let's go with video game speedrunning. If Runner A's best time is 1:58:22 and Runner B's is 1:57:59, then, more often than not, by Dragon Ball logic, Runner B would win every time because Runner B is objectively better. But that ignores most of the things that make competition interesting. Runner B could have gotten lucky with their personal best time. One of them could get really lucky outcomes from the game. One could choke under pressure. Someone could succeed with a safer, slower route while their competitor fails a faster route. Any number of variables could come into play. That's why my favorite fights in Dragon Ball are ones like Goku vs. Tenshinhan (where the role of luck is explicitly stated) and the first Vegeta fight (where even the comparatively weak, bumbling swordsman is instrumental in exploiting a critical opening).
Now, you might say I'm also being reductive. After all, DB has examples like Super Saiyans Grade 2 and 3 that have strategic disadvantages, as well as Gohan's overconfidence against Cell getting everyone in trouble. And that is true. But how many times more often is it true that we hear that nobody else should even try because Goku (usually Goku but very rarely somebody else) is the only person strong enough to even have a chance? Where's the fun in that? Unfortunately, the momentum of Dragon Ball is seeing Goku become stronger and stronger. It is exciting, but the only way to really demonstrate that is to use the rest of the cast as measuring sticks, martial artists that Goku pulls away from. It's just inherently limiting. So, yes, I very much wish Goku wasn't all and around better than everybody else. It would be far more interesting to see someone be better at speed or stealth or any number of creative techniques that Goku just can't compete against. Aang is the Avatar, but that doesn't mean all his friends sit around and do nothing but watch him save the day. He's the best, sure, but he can't do everything himself.
Alright, yeah. That's my rant.
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Re: Do you wish Dragon Ball had more diverse powers?
"Kung Fu problems are happening so I'm gonna get even better at Kung Fu so I can beat the bad guy's powerful Kung Fu," is simple and I love it.Gaffer Tape wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 8:14 pm My issue is that DB tends to have a very limited, reductive view of strength as something that can be objectively quantified.
As much as I love stuff like Basilisk or Naruto where the skills are varied and strange and the plots are, I really hope Dragon Ball keeps itself feeling more straightforward while still being fun and exciting.
To make the others more useful, you just need more bad guys that work for the main bad guy sorta like Piccolo Daimao's guys or Freeza's guys. Or even how there's lots of characters for everyone to fight in a tournament setting! Everyone can still have their chance to shine.
EDIT: On second thought, Vegeta's Spirit Control was cool. So maybe a bit of variety is okay when it's made to be special.
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Re: Do you wish Dragon Ball had more diverse powers?
Dragon Ball is about martial arts which is why most power are very similar. Shadow Dragons had elemental powers though. Sure, most of them also used regular punches, but they were not firing generic ki blasts under different name like 99% of cast. Buu's ability to take any shape and regenerate almost completely was also pretty unique for DB. We also had invisible man in OG series. Babidi could control your mind, Baby could infect you etc. More diversity wouldn't hurt, but we have some characters with unique abilities. Sadly, they are mostly villains. Main cast are all just regular fighters with ki attacks except Piccolo who has some cool abilities.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta
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Re: Do you wish Dragon Ball had more diverse powers?
I'd like to see Toriyama bring out some more funny gag powers. Devil Man could make people's hearts explode if they had any evil intent in them. There's that guy who just smelled bad and would rub his crotch and try to make you smell his finger. Monster Carrot could turn people into carrots. They don't have to be that extreme and wacky, but it would be fun to see Dragon Ball diversify its powers. Just don't end up like Fairy Tail where it starts to go up its own butt with rules.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.