Why does the majority of English-speaking DB fans hate Daima?

[WittyUsername]

Seems like a lot of fans in the West were expecting/hoping for the Super anime to come back so they could adapt the stuff with Moro and Ultra Ego Vegeta.

[super michael]

Seems like a lot of fans in the West were expecting/hoping for the Super anime to come back so they could adapt the stuff with Moro and Ultra Ego Vegeta.

I would like to see Moro, Granolah and DBS Super Hero chapter animated. Plus when they get animated, any characters and forms from those chapter, they can get added to any Dragon Ball games.
Manga exclusive characters and forms can't get added to any Dragon Ball game.

Although that doesn't make me seem Daima in a negative way. I still enjoy what I am seeing from the episode.

[LoganForkHands73]

Seems like a lot of fans in the West were expecting/hoping for the Super anime to come back so they could adapt the stuff with Moro and Ultra Ego Vegeta.

For those fans, Daima perhaps suffers from

syndrome which may be jarring.

As a fan of it so far, I will concede that Daima's tone may be... jarringly childish, even for a hardcore fan well-versed in classic Dragon Ball. Despite Bulma's assurance that the Dragon Team have only been de-aged physically, not mentally, Goku himself clearly acts much more childish and basically functions as comic relief. The show has more puerile and irreverent jokes than modern audiences are used to, which are 100% part of Toriyama's comedic repertoire, but I can agree that the timing and delivery of the jokes are very off in some cases. The poop gags in the last episode were, well, stinkers by Toriyama standards, I'm sure my fellow shit aficionados will agree.

There's also the glacial pacing and the overall lack of danger or unpredictable edge that always defines Dragon Ball. Under Toriyama's pen, there's often a sense that none of the characters are truly safe and anything can go wrong at any time. That's part of what made Z such a hit in the west, because homegrown western cartoons generally treat the characters with cotton gloves and nobody ever gets truly hurt. Daima perhaps feels a tad too cutesy and fluffy for many people. In the first episode, Degesu lightly kicks Dende to the ground and it's for some reason framed as a major "kick the dog" moment. Like, "oh my god, the nasty bad guy dared to kick cute lil Dende?" As if we haven't already seen Dende shot dead by Freeza in his debut arc.

[FortuneSSJ]

They probably never watched DB. Daima will bring a new generation of fans anyway.

[StaticMania]

The poop gags in the last episode were, well, stinkers by Toriyama standards, I'm sure my fellow shit aficionados will agree.

If simply mentioning poop counts as a joke...I'd get why they'd "stink"

[Chuquita]

I don't hate Daima.
I don't love it either.

Turning everyone into children and babies, while not the only reason, is a big part of why I think it's not making the traction (...yet?) that Super eventually did.

I disliked the turned-into-a-child gimmick in GT and I dislike it here. Find another way to nerf Goku and friends if you need to, but I know even with how slow Daima's plot is moving (for a 24 episode show) and how underwhelming and samey the landscape has been so far, I would enjoy it so much more if they'd just kept everyone's bodies the ages the were before the wish was made. Let the environment itself (they mention the air) be the nerf the way North Kaio's planet was. Turning them and everyone else into kids just kills a large chunk of the fun imo because part of DB's appeal for me is that Goku and friends got to grow up and continue on adventures as adults. I'm probably not alone on that.

That said, I'm still watching Daima every week and holding onto vague hopes (scenes from the opening, Goku immediately jumping to wanting his Daima db wish to be giving him his adult body back) we'll get the characters adult bodies back before the midway point of the show.

[Zephyr]

I disliked the turned-into-a-child gimmick in GT and I dislike it here. Find another way to nerf Goku and friends if you need to, but I know even with how slow Daima's plot is moving (for a 24 episode show) and how underwhelming and samey the landscape has been so far, I would enjoy it so much more if they'd just kept everyone's bodies the ages the were before the wish was made. Let the environment itself (they mention the air) be the nerf the way North Kaio's planet was. Turning them and everyone else into kids just kills a large chunk of the fun imo because part of DB's appeal for me is that Goku and friends got to grow up and continue on adventures as adults. I'm probably not alone on that.

Agreed with a lot of this. Turning Goku into a kid never really excited me, and the only time I even kind of enjoyed it in GT was after I switched from the Dub to the Sub and gained an appreciation for Nozawa's Kid Goku performance. From a writing standpoint, the wish being there to weaken them is very unnecessary, especially when they end up writing in an additional way to make Goku less effective in combat anyway. You don't even need the wish to get them to the Demon Realm, since they also went to rescue the kidnapped Dende.

I'm not gonna pretend that this is modern Dragon Ball's first stint with transparently courting nostalgia. We've already gotten Freeza, Tenshinhan, Roshi, Future Trunks, Broli, Gohan's Cell Games transformation, etc. all pandered to, so pandering to the Pilaf arc (both directly and vicariously through pandering to GT's first arc) makes plenty of marketing sense. So I guess I'm happy for the Pilafheads who are eating now.

All that said, I'm not sure we could say "the majority of English-speaking DB fans" hate Daima. I'm not sure how we could know. Frankly, I haven't really seen anybody at all who actually hates it. At worst they're lukewarm and apathetic about it. No crazy toxic vitriol like what Resurrection F stirred up.

[AliTheZombie13]

So I guess I'm happy for the Pilafheads who are eating now.

Daima is no Pilaf, I'm afraid.
The comedy of Daima is weak, there is no black humor, the pacing leaves a lot to be desired, and the character dynamics are not as interesting as the original five, not by a long shot. It's fun, but it's no Pilaf.

[SupremeKai25]

I can't but notice a certain cognitive-dissonance here. People saying that Daima is made for new generations and to attract new viewers... I'm sorry, wasn't that exactly the point of Super? Super Hero movie was only 2 years ago btw, not 15.

[super michael]

DBS Super Hero is a great movie, but they truly turned Goku into a nagging and clueless clown. Basically they want the new generation to believe that Goku isn't good at anything.

DBS Goku = TTG or Spongebob

[SupremeKai25]

Goku in Daima is a literal brat. I don't think Daima wants you to look at Goku and be like "Ah yes, what a hero, I want to be just like him when I grow up."

While Goku in Super had an actual job and worked his ass off at the farm to pay for rent and his children's education. Now that's someone to look up to, lol!

[super michael]

Goku in Daima is a literal brat. I don't think Daima wants you to look at Goku and be like "Ah yes, what a hero, I want to be just like him when I grow up."

While Goku in Super had an actual job and worked his ass off at the farm to pay for rent and his children's education. Now that's someone to look up to, lol!

Goku has only been alive for some months in Daima, after being dead for seven years. Plus Goku isn't one to break a promise, so he might have a job already or will get a job later on.
Goku made the promise on getting a job in the Cell Saga. However Goku died, so he couldn't fulfill that promise. However he is alive now.

Goku having a job in DBS doesn't negate how bad he is written.


Vegeta goes to Whis alone = Goku complains.
Vegeta wants to stay with Bulma = Goku complains.
Vegeta meditates = Goku complains and is clueless.
Vegeta explains about power efficiency = Goku is clueless.

That isn't the Goku that we know.

[Majin Buu]

Turning them and everyone else into kids just kills a large chunk of the fun imo because part of DB's appeal for me is that Goku and friends got to grow up and continue on adventures as adults. I'm probably not alone on that.

You say this as if adventuring was still the focal point of those adult years.

At that point, Toriyama was outright skipping over the parts of the story that could have made those arcs feel more adventure-like, leaving it to Toei to pick up the slack as much as it could with filler (Gohan's survival training, Goku's afterlife trek to Kaio's planet, Gohan and Co's space trip to Namek, Goku's post-Cell arc activities in the afterlife, Gohan's (mis-)adventures as Great Saiyaman, Goku and Vegeta's rescue mission inside Buu, etc.).

Super followed Toriyama's lead in having little interest in actually exploring the new frontiers it introduced.

[Chuquita]

Turning them and everyone else into kids just kills a large chunk of the fun imo because part of DB's appeal for me is that Goku and friends got to grow up and continue on adventures as adults. I'm probably not alone on that.

You say this as if adventuring was still the focal point of those adult years.

At that point, Toriyama was outright skipping over the parts of the story that could have made those arcs feel more adventure-like, leaving it to Toei to pick up the slack as much as it could with filler (Gohan's survival training, Goku's afterlife trek to Kaio's planet, Gohan and Co's space trip to Namek, Goku's post-Cell arc activities in the afterlife, Gohan's (mis-)adventures as Great Saiyaman, Goku and Vegeta's rescue mission inside Buu, etc.).

Super followed Toriyama's lead in having no interest in actually exploring the new frontiers it introduced.

You could substitute "adventure" in my quote for the phrase "in serialization" (which is likely closer to what I'm implying, but doesn't sound as fun) and I would still agree with the meaning.

My point is I like and prefer the characters who became adults to remain as adults.

[Zephyr]

So I guess I'm happy for the Pilafheads who are eating now.

Daima is no Pilaf, I'm afraid.
The comedy of Daima is weak, there is no black humor, the pacing leaves a lot to be desired, and the character dynamics are not as interesting as the original five, not by a long shot. It's fun, but it's no Pilaf.

Fair enough. Even though Pilaf arc nostalgia is hardly what I'd most like at the moment, I do quite enjoy the arc itself. I feel like none of the arcs that try to recapture its magic have really managed to, be it the front half of the Baby arc, or Daima so far.

[AliTheZombie13]

Fair enough. Even though Pilaf arc nostalgia is hardly what I'd most like at the moment, I do quite enjoy the arc itself. I feel like none of the arcs that try to recapture its magic have really managed to, be it the front half of the Baby arc, or Daima so far.

That magic is never gonna get recaptured, Toriyama proved that not even himself can do it.
It was a different time with far less restrictions, and Dragon Ball hadn't gone through the Z phase yet.

Baby was no Pilaf, but at the very least it brought interesting concepts, plus Pan and Goku's character development to the table. As long as Daima brings something worthwhile to the table, I'll be happy. It needs something to set it apart from "Pilaf/GT in the Demon Realm."

[Zephyr]

Baby was no Pilaf, but at the very least it brought interesting concepts, plus Pan and Goku's character development to the table. As long as Daima brings something worthwhile to the table, I'll be happy. It needs something to set it apart from "Pilaf/GT in the Demon Realm."

On a purely conceptual level, I like plenty of what Daima's done so far. But it also feels like "GT at home", which was already "Pilaf arc at home".

I can't wait for the episode where someone has to wear a dress to fool a bad guy, and determine if I think it's the 2nd best time they've done that bit or the 3rd best time they've done that bit.

[Majin Buu]

You could substitute "adventure" in my quote for the phrase "in serialization" (which is likely closer to what I'm implying, but doesn't sound as fun) and I would still agree with the meaning.

My point is I like and prefer the characters who became adults to remain as adults.

Given the topic of this thread and what that era of the series is most known for, unironically using the word "adventure" to describe that era just felt weird to me.

Like, "adventure" is the last word I would use to describe that part of Dragon Ball.

[Zephyr]

All this adventure talk got me thinking, because in all fairness, the word can and has been used in that more loose sense before regarding Dragon Ball. In the epilogue it says "Goku and his friends have had some glorious adventures...but I'm afraid this is all we can show you!!" I sincerely doubt Toriyama was referring specifically to the Pilaf and Red Ribbon Army arcs, and those alone, when he wrote that the characters had some glorious adventures. This tracks with Merriam-Webster's many definitions of the word, namely:

an exciting or remarkable experience

Now, it would also be reasonable to bring up the 2016 interview where Toriyama talks about the evolution of the series on a conceptual level:

But there was a positive response to that one-shot, so it led to Dragon Ball. However, it ended up as an adventure story, rather based around fights like in a kung-fu movie…

I liked adventure more, but it seemed at the time a road manga just wasn’t what people wanted. The setting changes with each chapter. At first I thought it’d be good to continue it for about a year, but it wasn’t very popular.

So there is merit to a denoted contrast between an "adventure story" and a "fighting story".

But in that same interview, Toriyama also calls that initial incarnation of the story a "road manga". Torishima also describes it like "a kind of road movie" in the Forbes interview.

So, personally, while I think there is merit to using "adventure" as the key descriptor of things like the Pilaf arc, the Red Ribbon Army arc, the first half of the Baby arc, and Daima itself so far, I think "road" or "road trip" gets the point across just as well in a way that also allows for the looser sense of "adventure" that both the Epilogue and the dictionary employ.

[StaticMania]

I don't think there's a need right now to clarify the difference between referring to a story itself as an "adventure" and a story involving "adventuring"...

It sounds really pedantic and I feel like it's pretty obvious which one is being referred to when relevant.