How many forms could be cut?

[Grimlock]

Every single transformation except SSJ1 and SSJ2 can easily be discarded from the original manga.

Everything except Great Ape, Super Saiyan 1, and Super Saiyan 2.

The correct answers are right here.

I would keep Ultra Instinct -Sign- and Ultimate Piccolo, though.

[TheMikado]

Anything in Super and beyond. SSJ3 was the perfect end cap because it showed there were diminishing returns to continue power creep and then that just got thrown out the window. SSJ4 is an exception because it’s based on the original Great Ape lore so it comes full circle without making up random recants to “make it fit”.

An advanced piccolo form was always cool but I liked the way Piccolo had no visual differences with his powerups. It was a cool contrast to the saiyans. If you wanted a new transformation it should have been a deeper shade of green and a darker aura. Maybe more muscular definition and a third eye.


Gohan beast is just pure garbage. Great Ape power in normal form is weird. It’s an ok concept but no real lore on how it’s achieved or its rarity or whatever.

Basically I hate most anything not tied to the original lore and having zero explanation.

Also I’m still salty they never gave humans kaioken, yet brought the stupid thing back and stacked it with SSB which is SSJ stacked with SSG… I’ve never been so disappointed with the series than that moment. It would have been easy to have Krillin or Tien do a Kaioken x 1000 and be as relevant as a SSJ.

Maybe if I was 10 again and seeing for the first time that would be cool I guess. My major criticism is that the original DB was like Harry Potter and wildly successful because it grow along with its fan base and audience. Since they are trying to do a reboot to get the younger base there’s nothing really left for the guy who has been tuning in since the mid 90s

[sunsetshimmer]

Anything in Super and beyond. SSJ3 was the perfect end cap because it showed there were diminishing returns to continue power creep and then that just got thrown out the window.

I agree even though i've myself put SSJ3 on the "totally would cut" list, but if we ignore DB got any sequels then yeah, SSJ3 is perfect. The problem is GT and Super existing. Both series introduced new forms that are both stronger and more power efficient than SSJ3, making this form useless and wasted. If they instead made it so Goku managed to overcome SSJ3 limits and make him actually use it (with result) few times before getting SSJ4/SSJG or anything else, then it would be totally fine.

But no. Super introduces new form right away and GT turns Goku into a kid making SSJ3 even less useful than before and then gives him SSJ4.

At the very least:
GT could've given SSJ3 to Vegeta since he didn't get SSJ4 until very end.
Super could've given SSJ3 to Gohan or Future Trunks instead of these garbage Beast and Rage forms.

[KorgDTR2000]

Grades 2 & 3 I don't think are necessarily needed. Also while Goku showing his fighting genius with acknowledging how bigger doesn't equal better and can be a hindrance on the body is cool in theory, it doesn't make much sense in the dragon world. There had been buffed out power ups featured before without slowing down other characters, most notably Muten Roshi's iconic buffed out state.

I've always thought it was weird too. Not that anything in the series makes sense physically, but it really stuck out to me as a contradiction. Trunks slowing down by doubling his body weight would make sense if he wasn't 1) already capable of lifting thousands of pounds with ease and 2) getting a gigantic power upgrade with the added mass.

I agree even though i've myself put SSJ3 on the "totally would cut" list, but if we ignore DB got any sequels then yeah, SSJ3 is perfect. The problem is GT and Super existing. Both series introduced new forms that are both stronger and more power efficient than SSJ3, making this form useless and wasted. If they instead made it so Goku managed to overcome SSJ3 limits and make him actually use it (with result) few times before getting SSJ4/SSJG or anything else, then it would be totally fine.

But no. Super introduces new form right away and GT turns Goku into a kid making SSJ3 even less useful than before and then gives him SSJ4.

At the very least:
GT could've given SSJ3 to Vegeta since he didn't get SSJ4 until very end.
Super could've given SSJ3 to Gohan or Future Trunks instead of these garbage Beast and Rage forms.

I think all of this just goes with the idea of SSJ3 showing they had capped out on just pushing Super Saiyan to new levels. After SSJ3 proved to be useless they had to find new ways to power up. Had SSJ4 or SSJG just been Goku somehow discovering a new form beyond SSJ3, I'd say SSJ3 was pointless, but no matter what direction the story went in the new forms came in new ways.

[Luso Saiyan]

I'd cut the following:

• Legendary SS
• SS4
• Golden Oozaru
• SS Blue Evo
• Ultra Instinct (Sign)
• Ultra Instinct
• Ultra Ego
• Black Freeza

I don't even count the whole "Rage" or "Grade" stuff as something apart from SS.

[Trouser]

- Super Saiyan Blue and Rose
- Super Saiyan Blue Evolution
- Perfected Super Saiyan Blue
- Super Saiyan Rage
- Beast
- Ultra Instinct Sign
- Ultra Ego
- Black Frieza

Super Saiyan Blue is completely unnecessary but it could work as a counter to Goku Black's Rose. Only then it would make sense to have yet another form based on God Ki.

[sunsetshimmer]

[*]SS4
[*]Ultra Instinct

I don't think these two could be cut as they are important for story. I mean you could remove them and rewrite story, but anything can be removed that way. UI was pretty much teased for a long time and was kinda ultimate goal for Goku to reach.

About golden oozaru, as i said in my post, it wasn't needed for Goku, but gets a pass because Baby uses it. In this case it works as a way to catch up with Goku's SSJ4 power and also makes Baby become what he hated the most and what killed his entire race, so story wise it fits perfectly.

Also:

I don't even count the whole "Rage" or "Grade" stuff as something apart from SS.

Tbh LSSJ also fits here. I'd argue it is even less apart from regular SSJ than SSJ Rage. But its existence is actually justified in story.

Super Saiyan Blue is completely unnecessary but it could work as a counter to Goku Black's Rose. Only then it would make sense to have yet another form based on God Ki.

That would be better honestly and it would let SSG be used as main form for a while instead of being completely replaced in few episodes.

[Luso Saiyan]

I don't think these two could be cut as they are important for story.

I would cut GT altogether.

Regarding UI, it was meant to be something internal, not a transformation.

[TheMikado]

Grades 2 & 3 I don't think are necessarily needed. Also while Goku showing his fighting genius with acknowledging how bigger doesn't equal better and can be a hindrance on the body is cool in theory, it doesn't make much sense in the dragon world. There had been buffed out power ups featured before without slowing down other characters, most notably Muten Roshi's iconic buffed out state.

I've always thought it was weird too. Not that anything in the series makes sense physically, but it really stuck out to me as a contradiction. Trunks slowing down by doubling his body weight would make sense if he wasn't 1) already capable of lifting thousands of pounds with ease and 2) getting a gigantic power upgrade with the added mass.

I agree even though i've myself put SSJ3 on the "totally would cut" list, but if we ignore DB got any sequels then yeah, SSJ3 is perfect. The problem is GT and Super existing. Both series introduced new forms that are both stronger and more power efficient than SSJ3, making this form useless and wasted. If they instead made it so Goku managed to overcome SSJ3 limits and make him actually use it (with result) few times before getting SSJ4/SSJG or anything else, then it would be totally fine.

But no. Super introduces new form right away and GT turns Goku into a kid making SSJ3 even less useful than before and then gives him SSJ4.

At the very least:
GT could've given SSJ3 to Vegeta since he didn't get SSJ4 until very end.
Super could've given SSJ3 to Gohan or Future Trunks instead of these garbage Beast and Rage forms.

I think all of this just goes with the idea of SSJ3 showing they had capped out on just pushing Super Saiyan to new levels. After SSJ3 proved to be useless they had to find new ways to power up. Had SSJ4 or SSJG just been Goku somehow discovering a new form beyond SSJ3, I'd say SSJ3 was pointless, but no matter what direction the story went in the new forms came in new ways.

Right SSJ3 was worthless in BOTH GT and BOG. The only ways beyond it were alternative methods under special conditions and circumstances. Notice I selected BOG and NOT Super. Because I felt SSG works well as a 1-off and not a continuous transformation. Similar to how they can’t just “train” themselves into SSJ4.

Also it felt like SSJ3 need special conditions like infinite power from being dead or fusion but that’s out the window now too.

[TechExpert2021]

I would cut out transformations that are pulled out of nowhere and are nostalgia-baiting trash. In other words, I would cut out the following:

– Super Saiyan Rage (only used by Trunks)
– Super Saiyan Blue Evolved (only used by Vegeta)
– Egocentric Secret/Ultra Ego (only used by Vegeta)
– Black Freeza
– Beast (only used by Son Gohan)

[Osmium]

Oozaru is essential, and I shouldn’t have to explain why.

Kaio-Ken (if even considered a form) is an extremely well developed concept that honestly should have gotten more screen time than it did. It’s one of the few “forms” that actually has very tactile consequences to its use.

Super Saiyan is the most iconic one obviously, and I think it works quite well in the context of where it’s used; Goku, completely out of options and patience simply snaps in a way he never had before, not even during the Piccolo Daimao arc. I have quite a lot of problems with it, as it is what made the power scaling go from troublesome to catastrophic for the non-Saiyan characters, but it’s definitely important.

The different grades of Super Saiyan I think are interesting in that they also show the consequences of neglecting one stat for another, but I’m not sure if they really needed to be considered separate forms, instead it could have been the results of different approaches to chi control, as a continuation of the past two arcs. However, I feel that the emphasis on bulk slowing you down is contradictory from what we see earlier in the series; considering both Kaio-Ken above x2 is probably the bulkiest “form” in the series and it certainly didn’t slow Goku down, but maybe that’s just a peculiarity.

Super Saiyan 2 is really nothing more than a set piece so Gohan can have his big crybaby moment. To this day I don’t really understand the point of it of all, because all it is is “it’s like Super Saiyan, but better in some nebulous sense!”. Maybe it could have been treated alternatively as what Super Saiyan looks like when chi use is the most efficient or something.

Super Saiyan 3 is completely pointless and could have been removed without affecting the Boo storyline. Goku literally accomplishes nothing with it, except for draining his power therefore screwing him over. It’s like Kaio-Ken except just way more boring. In fact, I’d argue it was detrimental to the story since it takes away a lot of the tension of Majin Vegeta vs Goku in retrospect. Toss it into the bin.

The several types of fusions are interesting I suppose, but I’ve never been much a fan of them and they mostly just feel like material to pad out the Boo arc, as if it needed any more padding. It comes off as Toriyama looking for a new gimmick. Maybe if there was more emphasis on possible drawbacks of their use I’d like them more. Not essential for the story in my opinion.

Super Saiyan God is a weird one because the concept is good, but it was put into a gimmicky shell. All it needed to be was the mastery of godly chi, the bridge between the mortal and divine realms. The ideas behind it are pretty good though, and harken back to stuff going back to the very beginning of the series. The ritual part though I find to be just bizarre and really disappointing. I think it should be kept, but given a different exterior.

Super Saiyan Blue works well enough in context of what it is; being a super saiyan of a super saiyan essentially. The concepts are also interesting, but once again, these are ideas that go back to the very beginning of the series and shouldn’t need to be wrapped into yet another new form. There’s really no reason why it couldn’t be normal super saiyan just with godly chi mastery; maybe just a subtle change in colour to signify it. I like how Vegeta uses it in the manga though; using it almost instantaneously at points for reasons of stamina.

I’m not familiar enough with a lot of the forms after this to give much comment, maybe apart from Ultra Instinct, which I think is yet another example of trying to make concepts already established seem new by putting a flashy shell around it, but that’s my opinions on all the big ones.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Personally instead of Super Saiyan Blue, I would just make Blue Vegeta's Super Saiyan God form. So Goku is Red and Vegeta is Blue, that way they're more distinguished.

Also I wouldn't mind getting rid of the silver hair of Ultra Instinct. I like the black hair version instead of the perfect form.

[sunsetshimmer]

Personally instead of Super Saiyan Blue, I would just make Blue Vegeta's Super Saiyan God form. So Goku is Red and Vegeta is Blue, that way they're more distinguished.

Also I wouldn't mind getting rid of the silver hair of Ultra Instinct. I like the black hair version instead of the perfect form.

That's what i said long time ago and i still agree to that. Would be best to just call it SSG but make it red for Goku and blue for Vegeta. Goku looks better as SSG, Vegeta looks better as SSB. So that would fit.

And agree on UI 100%. I hate silver form and there was never any need to make the incomplete version. It should be just UI and look like UI Omen.

[WittyUsername]

If I recall, weren’t there fan theories prior to RF that if Vegeta had his own Super Saiyan God form, it’d be blue?

Speaking of Super Saiyan Blue, I always thought it was weird when the Universe 6 arc established that Goku and Vegeta can still access their regular Super Saiyan forms. I previously thought the idea was that Super Saiyan Blue was just Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan while infused with godly ki, meaning that was their new default transformation. I guess they felt the regular Super Saiyan form was too iconic to get rid of.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the idea from Bandai was, "You can't get rid of forms, we need to sell merchandise!" Which is eye-rollingly dumb, but that's capitalism for you.

[sunsetshimmer]

If I recall, weren’t there fan theories prior to RF that if Vegeta had his own Super Saiyan God form, it’d be blue?

Speaking of Super Saiyan Blue, I always thought it was weird when the Universe 6 arc established that Goku and Vegeta can still access their regular Super Saiyan forms. I previously thought the idea was that Super Saiyan Blue was just Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan while infused with godly ki, meaning that was their new default transformation. I guess they felt the regular Super Saiyan form was too iconic to get rid of.

There was that "saiyan beyond god" concept in RoF movie. if i remember well it was what you described - they adapted SSG into their base forms and so them going SSJ basically meant going SSJ Blue.

But in Super they got rid of that. Their base forms are just base forms as always.

[WittyUsername]

If I recall, weren’t there fan theories prior to RF that if Vegeta had his own Super Saiyan God form, it’d be blue?

Speaking of Super Saiyan Blue, I always thought it was weird when the Universe 6 arc established that Goku and Vegeta can still access their regular Super Saiyan forms. I previously thought the idea was that Super Saiyan Blue was just Goku and Vegeta going Super Saiyan while infused with godly ki, meaning that was their new default transformation. I guess they felt the regular Super Saiyan form was too iconic to get rid of.

There was that "saiyan beyond god" concept in RoF movie. if i remember well it was what you described - they adapted SSG into their base forms and so them going SSJ basically meant going SSJ Blue.

But in Super they got rid of that. Their base forms are just base forms as always.

I believe you’re correct. That was seemingly why Goku in his base form was able to go toe to toe with Freeza in his true form, despite how much more powerful Freeza had become. It seems like that was retconned, just like the idea that Beerus had to use 70% of his power to defeat Goku as a Super Saiyan God.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

I probably would be less critical on Blue if it was explained or show better. They got sucked up in a portal/training but it was kind of anticlimatic. At least Super Saiyan 3 had a better reveal since it was explained Goku discovered it training when he was dead. It also doesn't fully help that Vegeta never achieved God form before Blue. So it is quite odd. At least Toyotaro had Vegeta train to access God form since he achieved Blue.

[ankokudaishogun]

What can be cut out:

• Super Saiyan 2: just have it being Gohan not holding back anything, and then Goku and Vegeta catching up with Gohan's Cell Game level.
• Super Saiyan 3: instead of being "its own form" it can stay as a "Grade 5" of sort as Goku's attempt to further improve on the SS transformation
• Ultimate: in the end it never did anything of worth. So just have Old Kaioshin bring out Gohan's true potential on the surface and leaving it there as effect. Would also work to explain why Gohan could get back in shape so fast each time he gets rusty.
• Super Saiyan Blue: we all know it only exists because people didn't like SSGod, at least at first. Can be replaced by SSGod without any relevant difference, if any.
• Ultra Instinct~Sign: it's kinda necessary to show off an incomplete UI\"sign of things to come"(as UI is a gigantic improvement and wouldn't work without some work preparing the readers for it) but not necessarily as a form itself.

[Zephyr]

I enjoy the narrative function that all of the Super Saiyan forms in the original manga serve, and I don't really have any issue with the ones introduced by GT or Super.

A lot of that stuff from Heroes can absolutely go in the bin, though.