Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 15 - Official Discussion Thread

[Noah]

Another mid episode, Daima hasn’t been on a good streak of episodes lately…

• I just don’t buy that they’re struggling with Gomah’s army. Like, if this was in the earlier episodes when they were still adjusting to being kids, fine, but after everything we’ve seen them pull off against the Tamagami? Laughable

• Cool to see Dabura again, but did anyone catch why The Third Eye is so important? Cause I don't get it

• This fake tension reminded me of DBZ Movie 7 where Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks suddenly 'remember' they can turn Super Saiyan and wrap things up faster. Like, seriously… why did Goku wait until the end of the episode to do that?

• You know what would’ve created REAL tension? If, while King Kadan was celebrating defeating one of Gomah’s troops, he and his minions got ambushed and killed by the Gerdamerie Force in front of Goku and the others. That would’ve been such a great way to close the episode, but it seems like Daima doesn’t have the 'license to kill'

• NEP hints that Degesu will use Dende as a hostage, so maybe the next episode will finally bring some real tension.

[AliTheZombie13]

"Next time, it looks like things will pick up for real!"
Me, waiting for things to "pick up for real" since 5 episodes ago:

[SupremeKai25]

Another boring fight against monsters that I have no reason to care about.

Degesu and Arinsu had better make something happen because there's only 5 episodes left. (4, really, I think 20 will just be an epilogue episode with no fighting).

Degesu has given me Zamasu vibes since the first episode so hopefully he can make the reminder of Daima more entertaining. From the preview it seems that he will threaten Baby Dende's life, so that's fun.

[Zephyr]

The part when the king and his group were making an inspiring charge with the music swelling, before it abruptly cuts off and they've seemingly all been vaporized....came across as very funny to me. Like, some legitimate (dark) comedic timing there.

I also got a chuckle out of this week's lore dump not even being delivered by a character in a conversation; the narrator just paused everything and started explaining shit.

Finally, a third chuckle: seeing all the planes destroyed and on fire, after all the plane troubles.

---

Re: Why Don't They Just Transform Already?
I think that this is a natural problem one encounters when trying to mine nostalgia for Pilaf arc iconography in a post-Super Saiyan story. Part of the appeal of Daima's premise is undoubtedly "black haired kid Goku fighting with the nyoibo again!" Obviously you could more easily justify that by just straight up nerfing them so they can't transform, fly, use ki blasts, teleport, etc. But Super Saiyans and flying around and firing ki blasts are probably too iconic for DB at this point to just scrub out, so they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Personally, I'm just not a fan of "now they're all weaker!" in a story like DB for the same reason I'm not a big fan of prequel and midquel arcs. I've always liked seeing the cast go higher and move forward. I can't win with any of DB's sequel shows; they either de-age part of the main cast (GT), take place in the past (Super), or both (Daima).

did anyone catch why The Third Eye is so important? Cause I don't get it

It makes you stronger.

[AliTheZombie13]

Re: Why Don't They Just Transform Already?
I think that this is a natural problem one encounters when trying to mine nostalgia for Pilaf arc iconography in a post-Super Saiyan story. Part of the appeal of Daima's premise is undoubtedly "black haired kid Goku fighting with the nyoibo again!" Obviously you could more easily justify that by just straight up nerfing them so they can't transform, fly, use ki blasts, teleport, etc. But Super Saiyans and flying around and firing ki blasts are probably too iconic for DB at this point to just scrub out, so they're trying to have their cake and eat it too.

Personally, I'm just not a fan of "now they're all weaker!" in a story like DB for the same reason I'm not a big fan of prequel and midquel arcs. I've always liked seeing the cast go higher and move forward. I can't win with any of DB's sequel shows; they either de-age part of the main cast (GT), take place in the past (Super), or both (Daima).

The writers of GT have discussed this problem before the series started.
The characters have already reached the peak of their power. They need to be weaker, otherwise, there's no (believable and/or engaging) story. What is the fun of watching characters who are already at their pinnacle relearn the same lessons they've been taught before, effortlessly obliterate whatever is on their path, or relive the same old "Oh no, I forgot to train again, now I'm weaker than Cell!"

So, pick your poison. Personally, I'd rather the characters just get nerfed.
Wouldn't it just be more interesting seeing characters who were once smug about how powerful they were struggle to adjust to a lower level?

[TechExpert2021]

the Germnasdfhawiyudgfioastdf

Actually, it’s Military Police Squad or Military Police. A.k.a. Kenpeitai (憲兵隊) or Kenpei (憲兵). Toei's official simulcast English subs translate that name as "Gendarmerie".

[AliTheZombie13]

the Germnasdfhawiyudgfioastdf

Actually, it’s Military Police. A.k.a. the Kenpeitai (憲兵隊) or Kenpei (憲兵). Toei's official simulcast English subs translate that name as "Gendarmerie".

I am never remembering that name, nor do I want to.
I'm sorry, but I am just uninterested in Daima's pointless embellishment of a simple concept.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Dragonball fans try to be happy challenge: impossible

No but I get it, the episode this week wasn't the strongest. But still, the complaints about "why don't they just turn super saiyan and end it in a second?" "why are they so weak? why do laser guns do damage to them?" seem pretty silly to me, I mean, they obviously nerfed them with the de ageing, I thought that was clear. It wouldn't be fun at all if this was easy for them. I personally find it fun to see these really powerful characters having to deal with things that would normally be mundane for them. This has been the show's vibe from the start

And they don't immediately turn super saiyan immediately for the same reason they never do it even in the other series: to create tension. It's not really new, how many times in super, or hell even z we have asked ourselves "why don't you just use your final form to get it over with"? It's just a thing that always happened in dragonball. Just make up some headcanon like "it would drain too much of their ki" or something, like we've done for every illogical thing in dragonball for years and years. When it comes to dragonball as a whole we definitely dealth with worse inconsistencies than this lol

[AliTheZombie13]

I mean, they obviously nerfed them with the de ageing, I thought that was clear. It wouldn't be fun at all if this was easy for them. I personally find it fun to see these really powerful characters having to deal with things that would normally be mundane for them. This has been the show's vibe from the start

And they don't immediately turn super saiyan immediately for the same reason they never do it even in the other series: to create tension. It's not really new, how many times in super, or hell even z we have asked ourselves "why don't you just use your final form to get it over with"? It's just a thing that always happened in dragonball

The characters have shown they can turn Super Saiyan whenever they want to and become [insert minimum of 50x here] faster and stronger. If they find themselves in a life or death situation and they're struggling to overcome it, worse, their loved ones are in mortal danger, why the fuck are they not using that life-saver technique, then? Are they stupid?! Are they suicidal?!

Oh wait, I forgot... They were just waiting for the episode's runtime to be over, that's the reason!
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun -_-

Fake tension is not fun and never will be. It's insulting the viewer's intelligence.
If I criticize other shows like Power Rangers and Digimon for using the same bullshit tactic to stall for time, what makes you think I won't use it against Dragon Ball? Because your beloved Toriyama is writing it? Get real.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I mean, they obviously nerfed them with the de ageing, I thought that was clear. It wouldn't be fun at all if this was easy for them. I personally find it fun to see these really powerful characters having to deal with things that would normally be mundane for them. This has been the show's vibe from the start

And they don't immediately turn super saiyan immediately for the same reason they never do it even in the other series: to create tension. It's not really new, how many times in super, or hell even z we have asked ourselves "why don't you just use your final form to get it over with"? It's just a thing that always happened in dragonball

The characters have shown they can turn Super Saiyan whenever they want to and become [insert minimum of 50x here] faster and stronger. If they find themselves in a life or death situation and they're struggling to overcome it, worse, their loved ones are in mortal danger, why the fuck are they not using that life-saver technique, then? Are they stupid?! Are they suicidal?!

Oh wait, I forgot... They were just waiting for the episode runtime's to be over, that's the reason!
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun -_-

Fake tension is not fun and never will be.
If I criticize other shows like Power Rangers and Digimon for using the same bullshit tactic to stall for time, what makes you think I won't use it against Dragon Ball? Because your beloved Toriyama is writing it? Get real.

If I start to use logic or any sort of advanced thinking (or even simple thinking) when it comes to dragonball of all things, most of it would fall apart. I love dragonball, it will always be my favorite franchise of all time, but it's not exactly big brain writing, and never has been, from chapter 1. It's just a fun goofy ride, full of memorable characters and moments. Like I've said, we're dealt with worse inconsistencies, plot holes and logical fallacies in this franchise, this in comparison really isn't that bad. Imo the proper way to enjoy any dragonball property is to simply have fun.

If you really can't sleep at night because of this, make up some headcanon like we all did for every element in dragonball that doesn't make sense. "they would have transformed if king kadan and his army hadn't arrived in time" not that hard, we've done bigger leaps in logic to justify dragonball's writing

Also I've never said anything about "my beloved toriyama" so I'm not sure why you brought him up, may he rest in peace

[Yuji]

I find this series would have been way more tolerable if it was about Goten & Trunks stumbling their way through the demon realm for whatever reason, accompanied by Shin, Glorio and Panzy. Goku can come in at the end to save the day or something.

You can't scale back Goku's adventures to something this low stakes and light anymore. It's tone deaf.

[AliTheZombie13]

If I start to use logic or any sort of advanced thinking (or even simple thinking) when it comes to dragonball of all things, most of it would fall apart. I love dragonball, it will always be my favorite franchise of all time, but it's not exactly big brain writing, and never has been, from chapter 1. It's just a fun goofy ride, full of memorable characters and moments.

Here's the thing:
I can't have fun with this. It's repetitive, it's predictable, it's boring.
As much as I'd like to turn off my brain and forget I have already seen all of this predictable, boring shit done before, I can't.
Props to you if you can have fun with it, but to me, watching this, I feel nothing but the dreadful feeling that I am wasting my time.
You can remediate lapses in writing, you can't remediate repetitive, predictable and boring.

[TechExpert2021]

You can't scale back Goku's adventures to something this low stakes and light anymore. It's tone deaf.

I wish Daima is dark and gritty as OG DB and DBZ…

[PhantomSaiyan]

If I start to use logic or any sort of advanced thinking (or even simple thinking) when it comes to dragonball of all things, most of it would fall apart. I love dragonball, it will always be my favorite franchise of all time, but it's not exactly big brain writing, and never has been, from chapter 1. It's just a fun goofy ride, full of memorable characters and moments.

Here's the thing:
I can't have fun with this. It's repetitive, it's predictable, it's boring.
As much as I'd like to turn off my brain and forget I have already seen all of this predictable, boring shit done before, I can't.
Props to you if you can have fun with it, but to me, watching this, I feel nothing but the dreadful feeling that I am wasting my time.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I wasn't even implying that you're wrong in feeling this way btw, you're justified, you can't help how you feel, and logically speaking, I do agree with all of your points on the writing of this episode. I guess it just doesn't bother me as much. Maybe it's because I love the feeling of having new dragonball to watch after so long, that feeling kinda brings me back to my childhood so I can't 100% hate on daima, even on weakest episodes

I hope the finale will be exciting enough to make you feel a little more positive about the show, I have faith that the climactic moments will be well done (goku vs tamagami and vegeta ss3 shows me that they can do it well)

[AliTheZombie13]

I'm sorry you feel this way. I wasn't even implying that you're wrong in feeling this way btw, you're justified, you can't help how you feel, and logically speaking, I do agree with all of your points on the writing of this episode. I guess it just doesn't bother me as much. Maybe it's because I love the feeling of having new dragonball to watch after so long, that feeling kinda brings me back to my childhood so I can't 100% hate on daima, even on weakest episodes

I can respect that, kudos for being polite in your responses.

[VegettoEX]

I can respect that, kudos for being polite in your responses.

I'd ask that you please do the same with your own responses! There's constant antagonism there. I understand it's based in frustration with the show, but there's no reason to take that out on other members -- including ones that even agree with you! Thanks.

[nato25]

Dragonball fans try to be happy challenge: impossible

No but I get it, the episode this week wasn't the strongest. But still, the complaints about "why don't they just turn super saiyan and end it in a second?" "why are they so weak? why do laser guns do damage to them?" seem pretty silly to me, I mean, they obviously nerfed them with the de ageing, I thought that was clear. It wouldn't be fun at all if this was easy for them. I personally find it fun to see these really powerful characters having to deal with things that would normally be mundane for them. This has been the show's vibe from the start

And they don't immediately turn super saiyan immediately for the same reason they never do it even in the other series: to create tension. It's not really new, how many times in super, or hell even z we have asked ourselves "why don't you just use your final form to get it over with"? It's just a thing that always happened in dragonball. Just make up some headcanon like "it would drain too much of their ki" or something, like we've done for every illogical thing in dragonball for years and years. When it comes to dragonball as a whole we definitely dealth with worse inconsistencies than this lol

That would be fine except I think the deaging really struggled to get the message across these characters are nerfed.

And Goku just saying it isn't cutting it either. Neither is them dominating the Tamagami, which the entire realm including the supreme demon king, seem to agree are the biggest threats in this world. How is the audience meant to care about these minor fights when they've beaten the entire demons realm strongest fighters?

And good to see some polite agreement in the comments above!

[SupremeKai25]

So Degesu is obviously disloyal to Gomah. This has been practically telegraphed from the beginning, that weird glance he gave in this episode is just the final confirmation. The next episode will be centred around Degesu. Since there's still Gomah and Arinsu to deal with, the next episode could be Degesu's downfall (even though he's done basically nothing so far). Then there will be 3 episodes for the final fight (against either Gomah or Arinsu, the final villain is one of them IMO), and 1 for the epilogue.

I believe confidently that's enough to sufficiently wrap up Daima. I just find it sad that Degesu practically did nothing and it seems that he will get shelved next episode. I will be happy if I'm wrong on this though.

[IntangibleFancy]

I mean, they obviously nerfed them with the de ageing, I thought that was clear. It wouldn't be fun at all if this was easy for them. I personally find it fun to see these really powerful characters having to deal with things that would normally be mundane for them. This has been the show's vibe from the start

And they don't immediately turn super saiyan immediately for the same reason they never do it even in the other series: to create tension. It's not really new, how many times in super, or hell even z we have asked ourselves "why don't you just use your final form to get it over with"? It's just a thing that always happened in dragonball

The characters have shown they can turn Super Saiyan whenever they want to and become [insert minimum of 50x here] faster and stronger. If they find themselves in a life or death situation and they're struggling to overcome it, worse, their loved ones are in mortal danger, why the fuck are they not using that life-saver technique, then? Are they stupid?! Are they suicidal?!

Oh wait, I forgot... They were just waiting for the episode runtime's to be over, that's the reason!
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun -_-

Fake tension is not fun and never will be.
If I criticize other shows like Power Rangers and Digimon for using the same bullshit tactic to stall for time, what makes you think I won't use it against Dragon Ball? Because your beloved Toriyama is writing it? Get real.

If I start to use logic or any sort of advanced thinking (or even simple thinking) when it comes to dragonball of all things, most of it would fall apart. I love dragonball, it will always be my favorite franchise of all time, but it's not exactly big brain writing, and never has been, from chapter 1. It's just a fun goofy ride, full of memorable characters and moments. Like I've said, we're dealt with worse inconsistencies, plot holes and logical fallacies in this franchise, this in comparison really isn't that bad. Imo the proper way to enjoy any dragonball property is to simply have fun.

I turned my brain off through most of Super and I definitely enjoyed it better that way, of course, there were things I just couldn’t ignore either because it was just THAT ridiculous or because whatever was happening wasn’t entertaining enough to compensate. A lot of Daima has been the latter.

I didn’t mind Goku and friends fumbling through the minions this episode because the third demon realm king showed up and the fight got more interesting, but before that it was a huge slog that made me wonder why Shin wasn’t fighting. It also doesn’t help that we’re getting closer and closer to the finale.

We’re not even out of the doghouse in terms of tertiary minions. I’m sure there’s still some generic forces they need to beat in the next episode, on top of the ginyu-esque special forces. So if they don’t get through that fast then the plot won’t thicken for another two weeks.

[AliTheZombie13]

I can respect that, kudos for being polite in your responses.

I'd ask that you please do the same with your own responses! There's constant antagonism there. I understand it's based in frustration with the show, but there's no reason to take that out on other members -- including ones that even agree with you! Thanks.

Duly noted.