Are we being played?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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the_abberration
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Post by the_abberration » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:22 am

laserkid wrote:*cough*

WRONG! Theres only EVER been TWO pressings of these discs. They've done the original television version (both in singles and in "saga" boxed sets), and then theres the remastered collection pressing (and a boxed set "Protoculture collection").

If you count boxed sets of the same pressing then why damn DBZ's really been anhilated, why there was the original Pioneer release, the boxed set of the Pioneer release, the ultimate uncuts, and the season one boxed set. No sorry but simply repacking thwe same pressing of the discws doesnt really work as "a new pressing".
I'm talking about the similarites between the two on the multiple releases of the series respectivly. Also the controversy around them in the U.S. Let's see. There was:

1) Robotech on VHS (never completed)

2) Robotech DVD (edited version)

3) Robotech Remastered (which caused controversy with fans who bought the Legacy collection). Robotech The Protoculture Collection (with contained Remastered and Legacy discs (again causing controversy with the fans)

4) Macross (yet another release of the Robotech series)

4 releases

vs.

1) Dragon Ball (both series) on VHS (never completed at least for Dragon Ball)

2) Dragon Ball (both series) on DVD (edited version for Dragon Ball eps. 1- 13 and DBZ seasons 1 - 2)

3) Dragon Ball UUC (re-release of seasons 1 - 2 uncut)

4) Dragon Ball Remastered (release of the entire series which caused controversy with fans who bought the UUC versions and season 3+)

4 releases

So yeah, the similarities are there.
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Post by VegettoEX » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:36 am

There's something to be said for paying a premium to own things long before other people. I'll bring in the cliche gaming example, here...

Say you bought a PS2 at launch. It was... what?... $400? Great. Down the road, it hit down to $200. Do you demand the missing $200 because you paid for it when it came out? Of course not. You've had it for that much longer than the person who waited for the price drop and you got that much longer of enjoyment than the person who waited for the price drop. That's the price you pay, and you should juggle the worth.

On the other hand, we have things like unfinished products (read: "Ultimate Uncut Edition" releases). Those people were duped into buying something that can never be complete, and their enjoyment is compromised by another product coming along that does similar things and is guaranteed to be complete (well, so FUNimation says...).

That's like buying a system with a demo disc, and never being able to buy a full game for it.

While I kinda see the VHS example, I also don't buy it because the EXACT same release could be bought on DVD. Sure, it's a different format, but every single thing that was present on the VHS release is there on the DVD release PLUS EXTRA.

On the other hand, things that were available on the "Ultimate Uncut Edition" DVDs (full-screen, dub 5.1, Spanish audio), are not and will not be present on the so-called "remastered" season boxsets.

I'm really not sure where I'm going with this, but take it as you will.
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Post by the_abberration » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:57 am

VegettoEX wrote:On the other hand, we have things like unfinished products (read: "Ultimate Uncut Edition" releases). Those people were duped into buying something that can never be complete, and their enjoyment is compromised by another product coming along that does similar things and is guaranteed to be complete (well, so FUNimation says...).
True. But the thing is that when the Legacy version came out, it was announced that a remastered / unedited version of Robotech was impossible. However, they came out with one. So in a way Robotech fans were kinda duped.

Also with the re-mastered Robotech, they only gave you the English and Spanish track. Then they turned around and brought out Macross with the Japanese track and I believe with even more "remastered / uncut footage" (if that is possible).

All in all, it seems Robotech/DBZ have become their franchise's cash cow. *MOO*.
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Post by Mystery Person X » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:26 am

the_abberration wrote:Also with the re-mastered Robotech, they only gave you the English and Spanish track. Then they turned around and brought out Macross with the Japanese track and I believe with even more "remastered / uncut footage" (if that is possible).
That's not how that happened.

The first story arc of Robotech is an edited dubbed version of Macross, akin to the original dub of DBZ seasons 1 and 2 (though with significantly less removed than those). The remastered Robotech DVDs are not at all "uncut" in the sense that all the footage from Macross is included - it's the same edited dub as always, but with a few extra scenes that were recorded and not originally used.

Meanwhile, AnimEigo licensed and released the uncut Macross series, uncut and subtitled-only, after a hefty remastering process. It's this remastered footage that ADV re-edited and used to produce their "Robotech Remastered" DVDs. (Yes, uncut Macross was available in R1 before the Robotech Remastered DVDs.) AnimEigo subsequently lost the rights to Macross, and ADV released the series again, this time with a new dub in addition to the subtitled version.

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Post by PiccoloDaimao » Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:44 pm

I'll be perfectly honest, I hope they don't make anymore enhancements after the so called re-masters of the 291 eps. I have Season 1 on DVD and thats just about as enhanced I want dragonballz to be. If you ask me, sometimes theres there too much of a good thing. Some of you might want it to be enhanced to the maximum level of HD quality available, but be realistic the show aired in the late 80's and early 90's. Are you expecting funimation to pull a rabbit out of its hat?

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Re: Are we being played?

Post by Namek'jin Ryu » Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:24 pm

FDLink wrote:What if FUNimation realized that making remastered DVD sets of DBZ would probably be the last time they could milk the franchise significantly, so they intentionally added something to their final product that would irritate many fans: cropped widescreen. But since FUNi knows DBZ fans to be weak-willed and compulsive, they know that many thousands will buy the sets anyway, despite said shortcoming. And then when FUNi's had its fill, they finally give us a 4:3 set, prompting many who've already purchased the 16:9 version to double-dip and buy it, too.
This is the EXACT reason as to why I'm not going to buy the 'Remastered' sets. FUNimation has milked me enough, especially with the Ultimate Uncut Editions that I will never be able to finish collecting. What am I supposed to do with the Vegeta Saga II box? I have both the DVD's that were made for it, plus the exclusive Vegeta figure that came with it. The box just looks dumb with the figure, and just as dumb with only two DVD's in it.

I'm going to finish collecting DragonBall Z in their Boxed Set formats because I only have 6 or 7 more Saga's to collect before I own the whole series, which include DragonBall and DragonBall GT. If FUNimation would ever come out with the Box Set format they did for DragonBall, that would be the only other time I'd think about buying their product, other then the remaining saga's I need, again.
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Post by laserkid » Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:03 pm

the_abberration wrote:
laserkid wrote:*cough*

WRONG! Theres only EVER been TWO pressings of these discs. They've done the original television version (both in singles and in "saga" boxed sets), and then theres the remastered collection pressing (and a boxed set "Protoculture collection").

If you count boxed sets of the same pressing then why damn DBZ's really been anhilated, why there was the original Pioneer release, the boxed set of the Pioneer release, the ultimate uncuts, and the season one boxed set. No sorry but simply repacking thwe same pressing of the discws doesnt really work as "a new pressing".
I'm talking about the similarites between the two on the multiple releases of the series respectivly. Also the controversy around them in the U.S. Let's see. There was:

1) Robotech on VHS (never completed)

2) Robotech DVD (edited version)

3) Robotech Remastered (which caused controversy with fans who bought the Legacy collection). Robotech The Protoculture Collection (with contained Remastered and Legacy discs (again causing controversy with the fans)

4) Macross (yet another release of the Robotech series)

4 releases

vs.

1) Dragon Ball (both series) on VHS (never completed at least for Dragon Ball)

2) Dragon Ball (both series) on DVD (edited version for Dragon Ball eps. 1- 13 and DBZ seasons 1 - 2)

3) Dragon Ball UUC (re-release of seasons 1 - 2 uncut)

4) Dragon Ball Remastered (release of the entire series which caused controversy with fans who bought the UUC versions and season 3+)

4 releases

So yeah, the similarities are there.
the VHS robotech releases (and there were many) were all by many diffrent companies.

None of them by ADV :P

second remastered was NOT the totally uncut, Harmony Gold managed to find audio masters they thought forever gone of dialogue once recorded but never used, they put it together. Lastly the protoculture collection IS NOT THE remastered plus originals. It is the remastered plus the BONUS DISCS from the originals. If you're going to quote the robotech example, PLEASE do your homework.

As for the Macross dub that project is completely seperate from Robotech. Robotech is its own entity that includes three "sagas" based opn three diffrent shows that were unrelated, a few comics, "The Sentinels" and the newly released shadow chronicles. Macross is its own series that starts out similarly to Robotech as Macross was used for the basis of the first saga that said there are many key diffrences between the two. Robotech was never a straiught dub of macross/southern cross/Mospeada but a using of their footage to create a brand new story that shared some similarities.

As for dragon ball, as EX stated, VHS and DVD s of the same series are just the like form on a diffrent format. May as well yell at EA sports for ripping everyone off for daring to do Madden 2007 on so many diffrent platforms.

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Post by FDLink » Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:05 pm

Boy, I'm glad I only own 4 or 5 of the 3-episode discs. And most of those I got used for half-price, or they were gifts. :D So now, after waiting so long, I can finally go all-out and purchase any remastered sets I choose.

Problem is: I want my fuckin' fullscreen. And I won't make a purchase until I get it.

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Post by Namek'jin Ryu » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:29 pm

FDLink wrote:Boy, I'm glad I only own 4 or 5 of the 3-episode discs. And most of those I got used for half-price, or they were gifts. :D So now, after waiting so long, I can finally go all-out and purchase any remastered sets I choose.
That is another thing I hate. I bought some of the VHS's back when DVD's were still something 'new' to the people. And then once everything started switching over to the DVD format, I rebought the episodes on DVD. So bascially, I got screwed.
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Post by Super Sonic » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:31 pm

Namek'jin Ryu wrote:
FDLink wrote:Boy, I'm glad I only own 4 or 5 of the 3-episode discs. And most of those I got used for half-price, or they were gifts. :D So now, after waiting so long, I can finally go all-out and purchase any remastered sets I choose.
That is another thing I hate. I bought some of the VHS's back when DVD's were still something 'new' to the people. And then once everything started switching over to the DVD format, I rebought the episodes on DVD. So bascially, I got screwed.
Least you did that. I'm still too cheap to rebuy anything I have on vhs except for the Ginyu dvds.

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Post by the_abberration » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:44 am

laserkid wrote: the VHS robotech releases (and there were many) were all by many diffrent companies.

None of them by ADV :P
Never said ADV released them. Just pointed out how like Dragonball they came out on VHS first but were discountinued before compeletion. There are still a few of us old fossils who still use a VCR.

laserkid wrote: second remastered was NOT the totally uncut, Harmony Gold managed to find audio masters they thought forever gone of dialogue once recorded but never used, they put it together.
True, but it was announced that the Legacy Collection was going to be it and nothing else was coming afterward. So I can see a few people being upset when the Remastered versions came out.
laserkid wrote: Lastly the protoculture collection IS NOT THE remastered plus originals. It is the remastered plus the BONUS DISCS from the originals. If you're going to quote the robotech example, PLEASE do your homework.
Not to nit pick but if the extras came from the Legacy Collection, then the Protoculture Collection was a combination of Remastered and Legacy discs, which is what I was trying to say.
laserkid wrote: As for the Macross dub that project is completely seperate from Robotech. Robotech is its own entity that includes three "sagas" based opn three diffrent shows that were unrelated, a few comics, "The Sentinels" and the newly released shadow chronicles. Macross is its own series that starts out similarly to Robotech as Macross was used for the basis of the first saga that said there are many key diffrences between the two. Robotech was never a straight dub of macross/southern cross/Mospeada but a using of their footage to create a brand new story that shared some similarities.
Okay, Robotech's been out since 1985. Since it's release on the home media front in the U.S., fans have been clamoring for the ENG dubbed / JP subbed version of the series (Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada) instead of the edited spliced together version to meet the 65 episode requirement of broadcast television of that time. It's 2007 and we are now just getting that. There have been many times up to this point were ADV could have said we already have various versions of this product out there. Hell, they even announced the were not going to do anything after Legacy...but they did. They could have waited until they got the completed version...but they didn't. Now while it is true that they at least completed the series at each run and are trying to meet fans demand, it took 12 years to finally get what we wanted. And with the new VA's on the English dub, some people are still not satisfied.

Dragon Ball Z has been out since 2000. Since it's release on the home media front in the U.S., fans have been clamoring for the true ENG dubbed / JP subbed version of the series instead of the edited version to meet the censor board's requirement of broadcast television of that time. It's 2007 and we are now just getting that. There have been many times up to this point were could have said we already have various versions of this product out there let's pick one direction and go with it. Hell, they even announced the UUC was supposed to be it and that they were not going to re-release the whole series...but they did. They could have at least finished season 1 of the UUC's...but they didn't. Now while it is true that they have been trying to meet the fans demand, it took 7 years to finally get what we wanted. And with the widscreen, some people are still not satisfied.

I truly understand your points. It's nice to know there are some Robotech fans here as well, which is why I was hoping some would see some of the parallels I was going with.
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Post by Mystery Person X » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:27 pm

the_abberration wrote:Okay, Robotech's been out since 1985. Since it's release on the home media front in the U.S., fans have been clamoring for the ENG dubbed / JP subbed version of the series (Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada) instead of the edited spliced together version to meet the 65 episode requirement of broadcast television of that time. It's 2007 and we are now just getting that.
Just to nitpick, the uncut subtitled versions have been out for several years. Macross first came out from AnimEigo in 2001, and ADV released both Mospeada and Southern Cross in 2003.

(If it's the dub that's the crucial difference, then yes, Macross only just got an uncut dub... but it won't happen with the other two, because unlike Macross they're not popular classics in their own right.)

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Post by Super Sonic » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:49 pm

Unlike Dragon Ball, I have no intention of seeing any of those uncut dub or subtitled. Like many stubborn 80s boys, can't address Rick Hunter as anything other than Rick Hunter. That and I don't really judge dubs made when I was 3 years old.

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Post by laserkid » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:51 pm

the_abberration wrote: Never said ADV released them. Just pointed out how like Dragonball they came out on VHS first but were discountinued before compeletion. There are still a few of us old fossils who still use a VCR.
Fair enough but your statment acted like ADV was behind all the releases and such, you even later make a similar comment. ADV was a licensor here. If you want someone to look at its Harmony Gold. Heck HG through FUNimation released Shadow Chronicles recently, continuing robotech - ADV isnt the robotech grand masters just the current distributors (sort of like Pioneer and Kidmark were to DBZ and DB back in the day).

the_abberration wrote:
True, but it was announced that the Legacy Collection was going to be it and nothing else was coming afterward. So I can see a few people being upset when the Remastered versions came out.
And at that time they were quite correct, there was no reason to expect that harmony gold would find material they thought lost to a hurricane, and order them to recreate the show for a "more proper link up" to Shadow chronicles.
the_abberration wrote:Not to nit pick but if the extras came from the Legacy Collection, then the Protoculture Collection was a combination of Remastered and Legacy discs, which is what I was trying to say.
You worded poorly. The protoculture collection is the remix discs boxed setted with bonus discs, but not the original version of the show. This is a decently priced boxed set at that, and as EX said, those who buy earlier pay the premium of having it sooner, it was a good year to a year and a half between the remix releases and protoculture collection. Believe me I know, because I was constantly trying to save up to rebuy the show via rematsered all at once. But by the time I did have the fundage, the protoculture collection came out.

the_abberration wrote:Okay, Robotech's been out since 1985. Since it's release on the home media front in the U.S., fans have been clamoring for the ENG dubbed / JP subbed version of the series (Macross, Southern Cross, Mospeada) instead of the edited spliced together version to meet the 65 episode requirement of broadcast television of that time. It's 2007 and we are now just getting that. There have been many times up to this point were ADV could have said we already have various versions of this product out there. Hell, they even announced the were not going to do anything after Legacy...but they did. They could have waited until they got the completed version...but they didn't. Now while it is true that they at least completed the series at each run and are trying to meet fans demand, it took 12 years to finally get what we wanted. And with the new VA's on the English dub, some people are still not satisfied.
Here you go hammering on ADV. Uh ADV never released ANYTHING BEFORE Legacy collection. And the subbed as mentioned earlier for all three shows has been out, for a long, long time. As for the Macross dub, THAT one you can pin on ADV as they begged HG to let them do such in a desperate move to make money (at the time ADV was looming very close to a bankruptcy, they later survived due to partially being bought by a Japanese company which helped them pay their bills). If you want to saddle the past robotech many releases it's Harmony Gold you're after, ADV hasnt been releasing it more then twice. If its about Macross then its ADV. So ultimatly the comparison just falls flat, sorry.
the_abberration wrote: Dragon Ball Z has been out since 2000. Since it's release on the home media front in the U.S., fans have been clamoring for the true ENG dubbed / JP subbed version of the series instead of the edited version to meet the censor board's requirement of broadcast television of that time. It's 2007 and we are now just getting that. There have been many times up to this point were could have said we already have various versions of this product out there let's pick one direction and go with it. Hell, they even announced the UUC was supposed to be it and that they were not going to re-release the whole series...but they did. They could have at least finished season 1 of the UUC's...but they didn't. Now while it is true that they have been trying to meet the fans demand, it took 7 years to finally get what we wanted. And with the widscreen, some people are still not satisfied.

I truly understand your points. It's nice to know there are some Robotech fans here as well, which is why I was hoping some would see some of the parallels I was going with.
Actually, it's even worse then that. 2000 is when the first DBZ DVDs came out, but thats when they first started doing subtitled uncut releases. No the wait for uncut releases has been from 1996 when they first aired DBZ in syndication, or at the very latest 1998 when the cut VHS's were making their rounds, and Cartoon Network picked up the show. I'm not trying to be mean nitpicking ya, but your reffrence here just doesn't work. Robotech has been handled far better then DBZ has in terms of releases.

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Post by nathantheguitarist » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:58 pm

I know that there are similarities and stuff between the releases or whatever, but can we please talk about something that doesn't have to do with Robotech... like... oh i don;t know, FUNimation uhm... playing us and whatnot?

:?

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Post by laserkid » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:07 pm

I'm just debunking the comaprisons that's all.

To the actual topic at hand though, since you asked...

Intentionally? Probably not.

That said it sure does feel that way sometimes.

I mean if they wanted to intentionally play us would the set be buyable at the $30 mark? If we had continued down the UUE DVDs it would've costed more then that to get the remaining unreleased discs, so the monetary value just isnt there to be "playing" us. That said, theres still saomething quite annoying about losting the "consistancy" of the fullscreen that those of us who've been buying these damn DVDs for 7 years now have. If I had to guess FUNimation thoguyht "WOWOMGWTF we cleaned it up, made the thing fit WIDESCREEN the format of the videophiles without stetching OMGWTF and dude its cheap they'll love it!"

I'm fairly convinced they thought they were going to be doing fanservice with this set, they just...were missing too many braincells to pull it off.

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Post by FDLink » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:03 pm

You're probably right on, there. And that's just how fucking clueless they are-- they probably still believe to this day that they're doing the right thing by cropping the show.

And you know what's really disheartening? The fact that people ARE STILL BUYING this set as-is. Even some of my friends are planning to buy it, despite what I told them about the cropping. They literally said "who cares?" This kind of attitude isn't going to get us 4:3 DBZ anytime soon.

People, if you ever want FUNi to get its act together and rerelease this set the way it's supposed to be, DO NOT BUY THIS SET and let them know about it.

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Post by JAPPO » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:04 pm

If people are happy with this set, why force them to send a letter about something they don't care about?
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Post by FDLink » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:20 pm

I'm not forcing them to do anything. I'm just saying that they're missing out on what's supposed to be a complete product, and possibly ruining it for the rest of us by purchasing this set.

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Post by MajinVejitaXV » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:22 pm

JAPPO wrote:If people are happy with this set, why force them to send a letter about something they don't care about?
No reason at all. My whole point obviously is that the lost footage is gone forever from these releases. Say some percentage of the people who buy this release grow up (since most reviews appear to be written by lower classmen in high school) and realize the importance of maintaining OAR...well, now they're fucked.

In all honesty though, I wouldn't even want this "remastered" set in fullscreen. It's an embarassment.

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