Canonical or not?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Pieter
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Post by Pieter » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:43 pm

Swift wrote:Actually, that explanation he's referencing is in the manga, even though Lunch isn't actually shown. In the manga, when Bulma shows up at the Kame House before Raditz' arrival, she asks where Lunch is, and Kuririn says she went chasing Tenshinhan.
Too bad. I wish would have a better reason to like filler. I have to quote this though (from the daizex rumor guide):
There were many character designs Toriyama came up with for filler material, including Paikuhan, Dai-Kaiô, and the beginnings of King Vegeta. We also learn that for many story points, Toriyama would typically come up with a vague idea and leave a memo for the TV series staff to, essentially, go wild with and develop a full story from. Some of these items included the back-history of the Saiyans and the Tsufurus for DBZ episode 20, the Z-Senshi's training with the "Ancient" Saiyans via Kami's Palace, and Lunch's persistent chasing of Tenshinhan. Even Yamcha's job as a baseball player was Toriyama's idea!
I guess it's indeed up to viewers to decide to what degree filler is part of the storyline. The two specials, filler sequences that had influince from Toriyama, or the ones that didn't harm the storyline and simply covered time Toriyama didn't fill out are for me the real storyline.

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Post by mister yummy » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:44 am

I go a bit further still. To me, everything in the anime that can be explained in such a way that it doesn't contridict the manga "happened". Likewise, everything that happens in movies that can be explained as not contridicting either the anime or the manga "happened". Everything else in the movies "happened" in an alternate timeline.

So, for me, the "anime canon" includes just about all filler, movies 1, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, and 13, and all of Dragonball GT. You can also throw movies 2, 3, and 4 into their own seperate timeline, and movie 7 is in a seperate timeline as well. I'm not sure about movie 11. I haven't seen it yet.

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Post by nathantheguitarist » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:52 am

What are your theories on how those movies fit in? Because as far as I can tell, the only one that could really fit in is Movie 13. :shock:
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Post by Rocketman » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:08 am

mister yummy wrote:So, for me, the "anime canon" ... movies 6, 8, 10, 12
These four don't fit into the anime timeline, dude.

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Post by Kaboom » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:10 am

Rocketman wrote:
mister yummy wrote:So, for me, the "anime canon" ... movies 6, 8, 10, 12
These four don't fit into the anime timeline, dude.
The only ones that have any hope of fitting are 9 and 13.
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Post by Sun_Wukong » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:40 pm

Back on topic, if anyone's still curious about the episode in question, its:

Japanese:
106.
Planet Namek's Great Explosion!! Goku Disappears into Space

English
91.
Namek's Explosion.... Goku's End?

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Conan the SSJ
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Post by Conan the SSJ » Mon Feb 19, 2007 11:20 pm

nathantheguitarist wrote:What are your theories on how those movies fit in? Because as far as I can tell, the only one that could really fit in is Movie 13. :shock:
Well, here're my theories:
Conan the SSJ wrote:There are the Daizenshuus or something in them (timeline guide?) stating movies 1 and 5 take place in the anime, whilst it's pretty obvious to almost any DBZ fan worth his salt (no Naruto jokes, I despise that dub theme with a vengeance) that movies 9 and 13 can get perfectly fine spots in said anime universe. But overall, there's no official fact or whatnot to dictate which movies can take place in the anime universe, it's open to interpretation and can be however it is from each of our own points of view. I've said a thousand...no, a million times, this is how I view the anime universe's timeline/canon:
Conan the SSJ wrote:Bardock Special.
Original DragonBall Series -- Episodes 1 - 153.
Dead Zone Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 1 - 117.
Trunks Special.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 118 - 125 (till the point where the screen freezes as the 3 years quickly pass by).
Cooler's Revenge Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 125 (from the last minute of this episode when the 3 years have passed) - 194.
Bojack Unbound Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 195 - 288.
Wrath of the Dragon Movie.
DragonBall Z Series -- Episodes 289 - 291.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episodes 1 - 64 (right up to the final 8 minute sequence, culminating with Goku departing with Shenlong).
Goku Jr. Special.
DragonBall GT Series -- Episode 64 (The final 8 minutes, 100 years later).
How and why I view said movies in anime canon:

DBZ Movie 1: I view it more than a year before Raditz' arrival on Earth, and explain Kuririn's interaction with Gohan as him playing along with Roshi and Bulma trying to figure out who he was before Raditz showed up, that or he just plum forgot. Besides, flashbacks, references, and even a saga based on the movie are seen later in the anime (while it's "filler", this is in the confines of the anime universe, a separate entity entirely from the manga canon). One other thing: the "Sacred Water" is brought back up in the Bebi saga in GT (which I view canon), so the Garlic Jr. saga provides a backround for that.

DBZ Movie 5: Here I view movie 5 between the conclusion of Goku's driving school adventure and the 3 year blip. I hold to explanations that Gohan simply has had a haircut and off-screen grown his tail back (just as Goku had done during his world travels in original DB) though gets it cut off-screen due to Doore bringing its weakness back into the picture. The whole buildup of Goku's SSJ transformation can simply be explained as; it was for dramatic effect and also it had probably been a while since Goku last went SSJ, as he'd been seen training with Gohan and Piccolo in normal form. Plus; Cooler's later seen in GT, as my point of view dictates, is canon in the anime universe.

DBZ Movie 9: Many reasons explained already, though I basically view it between Trunks defeating his timeline's androids and when Goku and Kaio arrive at Enma's (I simply see Goku and Kaio resting at another branch area in curiosity to watch the Intergalactic Tournament). Chichi's by now given birth to infant Goten, who is most likely being looked after by the unseen Ox King (if this means anything, Ox was there just after Goten's birth in the movie 11 credits, so we should consider he'd still be close with Goten). Trunks' return to the past, he's stayed long enough for what in reality is his last trip to see Gohan and his Father, his hair naturally grows back out, and his Mother's most definitely refined his sword. Gohan's buildup of his SSJ2 transformation...well, dramatic effect as with movie 5, and as seen when Goku first went SSJ, it apparently takes some training to advance to a new super level at will after transforming (which Gohan likely hadn't done as he'd be studying and helping his pregnant mother around).

DBZ Movie 13 Part 1: Now c'mon, this can definitely be viewed by anyone in the anime canon, I myself view it taking place between the conclusion of the "filler" party in West City (episode 288) and the start of the 10 years following Buu's defeat. Buu somewhat gets a nod to being around as Bee is seen being looked after by Trunks and Bulma, so likely he's gone on a vacation of sorts with Mr. Satan (whom is also absent). I view the reason Goku and the others only get one wish from Shenlong as opposed to 2 (or 3, whatever) is because it hasn't been a full year since Buu's memories were erased, but rather in the span of 4-6 months following. I like to think Gohan and Videl are in their senior year of high-school, very soon to be graduated (though that isn't mentioned).

DBZ Movie 13 Part 2: One last thing; why Goku beats an opponent SSJ3 Gotenks and even Ultimate Gohan couldn't? I simply go with the assumption he powered up to the 100% power he spoke of wanting to use against Kid Buu, though never got a chance. When you think about it, we have no idea what "percentage" of power Goku was at in SSJ3 when he first fought fat Buu, and the same can be said for his battle against Kid Buu. Overall, it's a dramatic effect I see, and the fact Goku and Trunks team up to defeat Hildegarn and Trunks is the last person seen in the movie, it seems like a perfect prelude to the start of the final three episodes (where Trunks is first seen). Trunks' sword; obviously NOT the sword of Future Trunks', no matter what BS the Daizenshuu says of it, the final clip/flashback of Future Trunks is merely showing that the present version is following in his future counterpart's footsteps as being a great swordsman (the same sword he uses in GT).

I've said my piece, no movies fit in the manga universe, and it's open to interpretation with the anime; where I view four of the 17 DB/Z movies as being canon. Deal, or no Deal?
14 years later

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Duo
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Re: Canonical or not?

Post by Duo » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:46 pm

Hm. I actually find that piece of filler very out of place and distasteful. Freeza and Goku are in the middle of the most epic battle the universe has ever seen, so Gohan and Vegeta battle over...I'm not even sure what? Only to have Vegeta fly off cackling, only to be sitting against a tree the next episode as though it never happened?

Sorry, but it bugs the hell out of me that they fought in the first place.

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Post by mAcChaos » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:59 pm

Oh, I thought that was after they thought Goku died on Namek, and Vegeta was gloating about it, so Gohan got mad.

If it was during the fight, that takes away from it a bit...
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Conan the SSJ
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Post by Conan the SSJ » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:06 pm

mAcChaos wrote:Oh, I thought that was after they thought Goku died on Namek, and Vegeta was gloating about it, so Gohan got mad.

If it was during the fight, that takes away from it a bit...
Actually, it was after Namek's explosion. Duo may've confused it with something else. Gohan was pissed because of Vegeta's gloating that Goku was dead, so you had it right the first time.
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