Why no Genkidama in SSJ?

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Ben Plante
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Post by Ben Plante » Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:11 pm

It might be esier to discount the purity thing. I mean, did Future Trunks have a pure heart? No, his was full of anger and hatred. In fact, in several cases, it was that impure anger that caused the SS transformations to begin with.

From now on, until I get a good argument otherwise, I'm gonna go ahead and say purity has nothing to do with it. It's simplt: 1 - You have to have high enough power, and 2 - You need some angering event to set you off into a rage.

Chronologically...
Future Gohan: The deaths of his friends, particularly Piccolo and Kuririn (Or the thoughts of their deaths once he attained anough power... I can't remember)
Future Trunks: The death of Future Gohan (Or, in the manga, simply anger at the insidiousness of 17 and 18)
Son Goku: Piccolo's near death and Kuririn's second death (He was unaware of Polunga's ability to revive people more than once remember)
Vegeta: The idea of always being number 2 at best made his anger explode. Remember my inferiority complex theory? :-P
Son Gohan: The idea of not being able to protect his friends, and his failure to do so in the past.
Goten and Present Trunks: ... uh... Magic.

I won't bother trying to analyze why the SS2 and 3 tranformations happened... I imagine it's the same anger + power combo. The only clear cut one is Gohan, with 16's great speech and subsequent death, plus the Cell Juniors beating up his comrades.

That's all. Go Red Sox!
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Post by The S » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:38 pm

My rule: if you don't take all of DB universe as canon, never take anything in DB as canon. Toriyama forgets events and whole characters, giving the DB universe as many plotholes as the Simpsons.
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Post by B-kun » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:42 pm

*writes down the rule and makes note to bring it up whenever necessary*
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Post by TripleRach » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:42 am

Okay, I briefly looked through some stuff...

Gokuu tells Gohan that a person without evil ki can deflect a Genkidama. I was just sort of skimming through the parts that might mention it (Kaiou's explanation, Gokuu using it, Gokuu passing it on to Kuririn), but I didn't see anything about needing a pure heart or anything.

When Gokuu gives his speech after first becoming SSJ, he uses the phrase odayaka na kokoro (calm/quiet heart).

When Vegeta first becomes SSJ, Kuririn brings up the fact that one needs an odayaka na kokoro to become a SSJ. But Vegeta replies that his heart is odayaka (calm/quiet) and junsui (pure). Then, of course, he adds the famous junsui na aku (pure evil) part.

It seems like you don't really need a pure heart for either of them. :?
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Post by Ben Plante » Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:17 am

I just realized it, the ultimate solution. The only thing in DB/Z/GT that is canon is the fact that nothing is canon! WHEE!
"Chrysanthemums will wither together with its leaves, lying beside the fiery eyes soaked with blood. Even then, your sublime status will never be shaken, even if only half of your limbs will remain. To increase the fascination within the drama, should the search for a new partner begin? If so, then head to the east. You will definitely meet the one who is waiting for you."
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Post by TGDweezl » Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:07 am

I'll go with that reasoning. It makes the voices in my head stay quiet.
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Post by Ben Plante » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:04 am

You hear the voices too? Do they tell you to join a carnival everyday? I'm getting sick of that. :-P
"Chrysanthemums will wither together with its leaves, lying beside the fiery eyes soaked with blood. Even then, your sublime status will never be shaken, even if only half of your limbs will remain. To increase the fascination within the drama, should the search for a new partner begin? If so, then head to the east. You will definitely meet the one who is waiting for you."
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Post by The S » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:31 am

I just realized it, the ultimate solution. The only thing in DB/Z/GT that is canon is the fact that nothing is canon! WHEE!
My point exactly. Anyway, I came up with a theory that if Toriyama had come up with the idea of Dr. Flappe instead of Toei, he'd still probably do the entire Dr. Gero storyline simply because he would have forgotten that he created Dr. Flappe. :D
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Post by oponok » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:49 pm

It appears that argument will be the end of all our discussions...

I guess there's no point in using Super Saiyan when performing the technique. It's not like Goku's energy goes into the bomb. I guess he can throw it harder in SSJ, but I don't think that typically matters. It would just waste energy while he's standing around with his arms up.
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Post by TGDweezl » Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:24 pm

Ironically the carnival is coming to my town next weekend, hopefully the voices don't act up then.

Goku uses his energy to force the GD, the energy used to make the GD is all "donated" by just about anything. The whole "purity" concept is really the only thing that keeps Goku from performing the task in SSJ.
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Post by Ben Plante » Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:26 am

Perhaps the energy used to make the GD is only the purity within the donaters. Like, an evil person with just a little bit of purity wouldn't be able to donate much. I dunno, I'm stretching.

Carnival coming? Make sure you go and ask to see the Management, make sure he's not some evil mystery man hiding behind a curtain. ... Nobody will get that joke, it's from the HBO show Carnivale, which is on my profile as one of my 3 shows that I never miss.
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Post by Jerseymilk » Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:43 am

I actually got that reference Ben. Never assume my friend! ^_^
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Post by Ben Plante » Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:09 am

You watch Carnivale!? Awesome! :-)

Edit: After our I'm coinvo, you don't watch it I guess, just you know about it. Oh well, good enough.

I want everyone here to buy the Season 1 DVD of Carnivale when it's released this Fall. It's the best show evAR, just ahead of 24.

Sorry, OT.
"Chrysanthemums will wither together with its leaves, lying beside the fiery eyes soaked with blood. Even then, your sublime status will never be shaken, even if only half of your limbs will remain. To increase the fascination within the drama, should the search for a new partner begin? If so, then head to the east. You will definitely meet the one who is waiting for you."
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Post by The S » Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:27 am

I can't watch it, because we got rid of HBO (it cost too much extra), although I've heard it's pretty twisted.
And I'd rather watch linolieum curl than 24. So... boring...

Okay, back on topic... how the Hell would Krillin know you need a calm/quiet heart to be SS? He was like, fucking dead when Goku did it.
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Post by PsyLiam » Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:44 pm

He could have been watching from the afterlife. Or someone could have told him during the 3 years they were training for the androids. Perhaps Gohan sent an e-mail around...
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Post by Ben Plante » Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:48 pm

I'd rather watch linolieum curl than 24. So... boring...
If you mean the latest season, Day 3... fine, you can live. It blew.

But I swear... if you mean Seasons 1 or 2... my God... I... I will find you. :-P

24 does take several episodes (About 6) to get good at any point, since the real time doesn't allow for a whole lotta good stuff in an hour an episode.

Damn, OT again! Uh... uh... Dragonball is cool! (Saved)
"Chrysanthemums will wither together with its leaves, lying beside the fiery eyes soaked with blood. Even then, your sublime status will never be shaken, even if only half of your limbs will remain. To increase the fascination within the drama, should the search for a new partner begin? If so, then head to the east. You will definitely meet the one who is waiting for you."
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Post by TGDweezl » Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:47 pm

Nice OT save there. :lol:
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Post by Ben Plante » Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:23 am

I know, awesome save. I'm a jeeniuss!

Uh oh, again. Uh... Gohan's SS2 scene has good music. (This is the last time I do this joke Mike and Julian, promise... but nobody insults 24!)
"Chrysanthemums will wither together with its leaves, lying beside the fiery eyes soaked with blood. Even then, your sublime status will never be shaken, even if only half of your limbs will remain. To increase the fascination within the drama, should the search for a new partner begin? If so, then head to the east. You will definitely meet the one who is waiting for you."
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Post by Izlude » Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:31 pm

Maybe the fact Goku can be a SSJ without having to feel anger and power up for insane amounts of time and not consume ki went into factor?

I mean Goku can act completely natural in his SSJ state, so natural he can get those big ol bug eyes and not look so grim and nasty :)
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Post by Dayspring » Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:09 pm

Eh...have you SEEN how he first goes SSJ?
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