Daizenshuu Question, Possibly Tough One

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:33 am

Dayspring wrote:But that's just it, the very nature of SSJ3 seems to be simply using all one's energy and strength reserves. As a result, we find out going full power SSJ3 results in a shutting down of the super saiyan stages when alive. Why? Because all the energy got used up (or at least as closed to without killing the user). The daizenshuu confirms this as well.

That's not the point though. It's not a fight of "who can last longer" that we're talking about. At least not me, anyway. I was comparing a SSj3 Goku to Chibi Boo, reguardless of the drain. Sure, we know that Chibi Boo would've won the battle due to that detail, but he wasn't more powerful than Goku. That's my point.

Note that it becomes an "if he could have attained max power" debate. Regardless of whether he could or not, he doesn't have that confidence against the other forms of Buu, proving SSJ3 Goku is weaker than Gohan.

I didn't say Goku was stronger than Gohan.

Oh, and not to be a dick, but "Ultimate Gohan Prime?" We seriously need to stop trying to coming up with fan terminologies... ^_^;;

Would you prefer "Mystic Gohan prime"? ^^; It's just how I say it.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:03 am

Tyro wrote:
Dayspring wrote:But that's just it, the very nature of SSJ3 seems to be simply using all one's energy and strength reserves. As a result, we find out going full power SSJ3 results in a shutting down of the super saiyan stages when alive. Why? Because all the energy got used up (or at least as closed to without killing the user). The daizenshuu confirms this as well.
That's not the point though. It's not a fight of "who can last longer" that we're talking about. At least not me, anyway. I was comparing a SSj3 Goku to Chibi Boo, reguardless of the drain. Sure, we know that Chibi Boo would've won the battle due to that detail, but he wasn't more powerful than Goku. That's my point.

Note that it becomes an "if he could have attained max power" debate. Regardless of whether he could or not, he doesn't have that confidence against the other forms of Buu, proving SSJ3 Goku is weaker than Gohan.
I didn't say Goku was stronger than Gohan.

Oh, and not to be a dick, but "Ultimate Gohan Prime?" We seriously need to stop trying to coming up with fan terminologies... ^_^;;
Would you prefer "Mystic Gohan prime"? ^^; It's just how I say it.

1) But it is the point. It's a strength that doesn't exist because Goku's alive, therefore Buu is stronger.

2) I was just refering to the conversation as a whole, not your argument specifically. Sorry for the mix-up.

3) It's just so odd that there exists so many fan terms for something that doesn't need a fan term at all. Why not just call it what it is: "Gohan after he received Rou Kaioshin's power up." I mean, we do it for every other mystical power up in the series. EX: We don't call Goku, after drinking the choshinsui, "Shin Goku" or Gohan and Krillin, post-Saichoru power up, "Hyper Gohan Omega," etc, so why does the DB community come to the agreement that Rou Kaioshin's power up must have a fan name?

That's my own personal gripe, btw. Not directed at you personally.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:07 am

I'm confused. Are you saying Goku was weaker when he was alive then when he was dead? And I don't just mean not being able to reach full power (which one could argue it was because he did some combat against Chibi Boo). Do you believe SSj3 Goku while alive was just naturally weaker? Because I don't. I only see the time Goku can stay in the form as limited more.

Anyway, Goku was shown to be practically equal with Chibi Boo while as a SSj3, regardless of the limited time. At least in the beginning of the battle. That's, again, my point. Goku's power only started dropping when he tried to reach full power.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:15 am

Saikyo no Gohan.

Ultimate/Mightiest Gohan.

It has a term, and it is correct. It came from the Daizenshuu.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:18 am

Tyro wrote: Anyway, Goku was shown to be practically equal with Chibi Boo while as a SSj3, regardless of the limited time. At least in the beginning of the battle. That's, again, my point. Goku's power only started dropping when he tried to reach full power.

What's saying that Chibi Buu was using his full strength then? We have no proof of that. He may have just been playing around.
What I think is that due to Goku's limited power he can't use his full strength, because of that he has to divide his energy in his attacks so that the fight isn't over in seconds.
That's basically why I think he is weaker alive than dead.
And Goku's power was dropping because of that he had used too much of it.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:43 pm

Godo wrote:What's saying that Chibi Buu was using his full strength then? We have no proof of that. He may have just been playing around.
What I think is that due to Goku's limited power he can't use his full strength, because of that he has to divide his energy in his attacks so that the fight isn't over in seconds.
That's basically why I think he is weaker alive than dead.
And Goku's power was dropping because of that he had used too much of it.

Before I give you a rebuttal, I'm wondering what you mean by full strength? Do you believe Chibi Boo can "power up"?

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:11 pm

Tyro wrote:
Godo wrote:What's saying that Chibi Buu was using his full strength then? We have no proof of that. He may have just been playing around.
What I think is that due to Goku's limited power he can't use his full strength, because of that he has to divide his energy in his attacks so that the fight isn't over in seconds.
That's basically why I think he is weaker alive than dead.
And Goku's power was dropping because of that he had used too much of it.
Before I give you a rebuttal, I'm wondering what you mean by full strength? Do you believe Chibi Boo can "power up"?

What I mean is his maximum power he can reach in SSJ3.
I think that because of him being alive he has problems maintaining his full power since it drains from him so quickly.
You can hold a rope if it moves slightly, but when it starts to move without control, it get's harder to hold it. I think it´s the same with ki, hence why I think that the reason that Goku wasn't able to use his maximum power.

And, no I believe that Chibi Buu can't power up, but I've got the impression thet he was mostly playing around to make the fighters suffer more. If he was more serious he would have pummeled Goku.

My 2 cents.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:21 pm

Godo wrote:What I mean is his maximum power he can reach in SSJ3.
I think that because of him being alive he has problems maintaining his full power since it drains from him so quickly.
You can hold a rope if it moves slightly, but when it starts to move without control, it get's harder to hold it. I think it´s the same with ki, hence why I think that the reason that Goku wasn't able to use his maximum power.

And, no I believe that Chibi Buu can't power up, but I've got the impression thet he was mostly playing around to make the fighters suffer more. If he was more serious he would have pummeled Goku.

My 2 cents.

Wouldn't Chibi Boo "playing around" be his fighting style? Unpredictable, chaos making, never really serious, Boo of Pure Evil. I don't think he has a fighting style to hold back on, if you catch my drift. The only time we ever see Chibi Boo use his "full effort" is when he's pushing the Genki Dama back. He's broke out in sweat and veins. But, like you, I don't believe Chibi Boo can increase his ki, or "power up".

As for Goku, I believe he probably could've reached full power if he tried to reach it in the first place, before he fought Boo. After he does his "real Kamehameha" you can see he's sweating and huffing. (That would be at the very end of his SSj3 fight with Boo.)

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:25 pm

Tyro wrote:
Godo wrote:What's saying that Chibi Buu was using his full strength then? We have no proof of that. He may have just been playing around.
What I think is that due to Goku's limited power he can't use his full strength, because of that he has to divide his energy in his attacks so that the fight isn't over in seconds.
That's basically why I think he is weaker alive than dead.
And Goku's power was dropping because of that he had used too much of it.
Before I give you a rebuttal, I'm wondering what you mean by full strength? Do you believe Chibi Boo can "power up"?

But does it matter? Whether it means that he might be capable of doing that or whether it means it wasn't taking the fight against Goku seriously is irrelevent as they were equal at Buu's current level. The only difference is that SSJ3 Goku spent extraodinary amounts of energy to stay at that level of equality.

And yes, I do say Goku is weaker alive because of the obvious evidence that he is incapable of using all the energy that is capable of using when he's dead. He planned on summoning that energy in order to make himself stronger than Buu. He couldn't do it while alive. I can't think of a way to make this sound more clearly. ^_^;;

@Duo: Works for me. Thanks!

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:36 pm

Dayspring wrote:But does it matter? Whether it means that he might be capable of doing that or whether it means it wasn't taking the fight against Goku seriously is irrelevent as they were equal at Buu's current level. The only difference is that SSJ3 Goku spent extraodinary amounts of energy to stay at that level of equality.

Hence "Goku being equal to Chibi Boo, regardless of the time and strain on his form." And, yes, it does matter. If Chibi Boo could've powered up than that would've changed what Goku said. He might not have been able to beat him at full power. But I think it's pretty obvious Chibi Boo has nothing more than a "full effort".

And yes, I do say Goku is weaker alive because of the obvious evidence that he is incapable of using all the energy that is capable of using when he's dead. He planned on summoning that energy in order to make himself stronger than Buu. He couldn't do it while alive. I can't think of a way to make this sound more clearly. ^_^;;

I meant something more like, do you mean that when Goku reaches his SSj3 level, not at full power, not trying to reach full power, do you believe that a dead SSj3 Goku would be stronger than a live SSj3 Goku? He would just be naturally more power? The only difference I see between a dead SSj3 Goku and a live one is that a dead SSj3 Goku has less strain on his body and is capable of reaching his full power in the SSj3 state easier.

Edit: By any chance can we start a new topic about this? I feel guilty using SS2 Vegeto's thread to have this debate which is off topic to his thread.

knuckle9 · Post by **knuckle9** » Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:51 pm

Tyro wrote:
Dayspring wrote:.

I don't think its completely off topic.

The way I look at it is that Goku was the strongest fighter at the end of DBZ.

Has anyone mentioned the fact that after the fusion wore off in Super Buu, this form would be stronger than Super Buu anyway; due to Piccolo and Goten + Trunks being powerful fighters.

After the fusion wears off, Goku seems unbelievably confident against Buu. If he was confident because Gohan could take out Buu, then he'd at least stand back a bit, instead of openly mocking Buu.

Just my two cents

SS2 Vegeto · Post by **SS2 Vegeto** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:34 am

Since Chibi Buu basically resorted to biting Goku at one point, and was being juggled around effortlessly at the start of the fight, I don't think he had much choice but to try to start with, and latter...he sure seemed like he was trying to me.

Yeah, I know all this stuff, I've argued it over the course of enough years, and built on it much more than that...really, I can still say it's not that cut and dry, there are people who can still make powerful arguments against such basic evidences, although my personal belief has always been that it comes down to a person's pre-concieved notions, when one's fully seen the massive entirety of a sophisticated debate on this subject, and swayed towards what I and others would percieve as the "wrong" side. Never had trouble with it, I enjoy it when it comes down to it, but the existence of a daizenshuu scanslation would still be...almost better than sex right now, to use a term I'd otherwise hate...if there were any other. Too bad, don't know that it'll ever happen. I need to learn asian-speak.

Knuckle9, that's because Shin Buu was way stronger than Chibi Buu. Goku being stronger than him works just fine with him being weaker than Gohan anyways. I don't really see the relevance of your mentioning Shin Buu (Piccolo Prime), with or without the boys, yeah, he's stronger than Shin Buu (not that it'd really be that impressive, or even noticeable a difference).

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:20 pm

Tyro wrote:
Dayspring wrote:But does it matter? Whether it means that he might be capable of doing that or whether it means it wasn't taking the fight against Goku seriously is irrelevent as they were equal at Buu's current level. The only difference is that SSJ3 Goku spent extraodinary amounts of energy to stay at that level of equality.
Hence "Goku being equal to Chibi Boo, regardless of the time and strain on his form." And, yes, it does matter. If Chibi Boo could've powered up than that would've changed what Goku said. He might not have been able to beat him at full power. But I think it's pretty obvious Chibi Boo has nothing more than a "full effort".

And yes, I do say Goku is weaker alive because of the obvious evidence that he is incapable of using all the energy that is capable of using when he's dead. He planned on summoning that energy in order to make himself stronger than Buu. He couldn't do it while alive. I can't think of a way to make this sound more clearly. ^_^;;
I meant something more like, do you mean that when Goku reaches his SSj3 level, not at full power, not trying to reach full power, do you believe that a dead SSj3 Goku would be stronger than a live SSj3 Goku? He would just be naturally more power? The only difference I see between a dead SSj3 Goku and a live one is that a dead SSj3 Goku has less strain on his body and is capable of reaching his full power in the SSj3 state easier.

Edit: By any chance can we start a new topic about this? I feel guilty using SS2 Vegeto's thread to have this debate which is off topic to his thread.

1) I don't think it's that obvious since we know Chibi Buu's the most evil, psychotic fucknut in the Cosmos who also happens to enjoy fighting.

2) What I mean by saying that Goku is stronger when dead is that he can summon more power that can be converted to raw strength. So SSJ3 Goku alive is as strong as SSJ3 Goku when dead, but SSJ3 dead Goku has the ability to become stronger at will, a process that only makes the living SSJ3 Goku weaker.

I never thought I'd get into a "which Goku is strongest" conversation...

@knuckle: It doesn't matter that Goku felt relieved that they'd fight Shin Buu (+Piccolo); Gohan was still stronger than form of Buu.

@SS2 Vegeto: Better than sex?

Then I don't think you're doing it right...

(

)

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:40 pm

Yes your right. Gokuu says it was much easier when he was dead, and "Super Saiyan 3 really eats up the ki of a living body!"^^^

"Final Warrior" Gohan > Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks > Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.

This is all stated in the Manga/Anime folks no need to discuss the obvious.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:57 pm

Phenomenol wrote:Yes your right. Gokuu says it was much easier when he was dead, and "Super Saiyan 3 really eats up the ki of a living body!"^^^

"Final Warrior" Gohan > Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks > Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku.

This is all stated in the Manga/Anime folks no need to discuss the obvious.

Sure there is. Find me the equation that Toriyama wrote out that literally defines and mathematically proves what you just wrote above. Unless you come up with this, I think the series and its intricacies will always be open to debate and fun discussion.

Lest we not forgot that the author came off of writing a series based on poop jokes...

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 5:38 pm

There is no need for equations, especially when the author outright states the difference in power in his manga.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:38 pm

Well, ... does he? If so, quotes?
But... yeah... I ... umm... what is "on topic" for this thread, now?

Kak · Post by **Kak** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:38 pm

I just recently got done watching through every animated thing in the Dragon Ball universe not too long ago, and payed close attention to the way fights were portrayed in the series, and I just wanted to say that the way EVERY character acts or their facial expressions during a fight is in no way a serious indicator of how powerful they are. This can be seen in the many fights where a more powerful character (even those that can't "power up") appears to be fighting seriously with a weaker one, until of course he smiles and declares that he's stronger and then kicks the butt of the weaker character. I see no indication of why Kid Buu would be any different, so it's quite possible he could kill SSJ3 Goku in a few seconds if he chose to.

And I'm really interested in the issue of the strengths of the different Buu's. I've heard so many different things, that his original form was the most powerful and he got weaker as he absorbed the Kaioshins (and I thought I remembered reading that Kid Buu was the strongest in the subtitles from the show), but I've also heard that he got more powerful as he absorbed the Kaioshins, and that certainly would make more sense. Someone here mentioned there was a thread about it, I guess I'll go look for it.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:22 pm

In the Kid Buu vs Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku fight, Kid Buu seemed the strongest.

Super Buu 3 (Gotenks, Final warrior Gohan and Piccolo) > Super Buu 2 (Gotenks Buu) > Super Buu > Kid Buu > Fat Buu!

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:57 pm

In the Japanese Anime, Goku does actually declare that Chibi Boo is the strongest. That's where the debate comes from in the first place, fundamentally, because such an inaccurate statement isn't made in the Manga, and it doesn't make sense for Boo to get weaker by absorbing, otherwise he...wouldn't. The only one that hindered his power was Dai Kaioshin because his jolly personality made Boo less aggressive, but not really weaker.

Kanzenshuu

Daizenshuu Question, Possibly Tough One

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