Freeza's power levels?

[Thanos6]

Where do we have the proof of Goku not using the Kaioken? Going by the manga, he doesn't have the aura at all that I can see.

When Tenshinhan brings up Goku still having the Kaioken as a trump card, Kaio senses that Goku's started using it in a number of bursts, only to prove completely futile against Freeza. Not certain if this was in the manga as well. This occurs when Freeza's already gone to 50%.

I remember that from the manga, but I don't remember anything about bursts...just Kaio bowing his head and going "Sorry...he's ALREADY USING the Kaioken..."

[Conan the SSJ]

I remember that from the manga, but I don't remember anything about bursts...just Kaio bowing his head and going "Sorry...he's ALREADY USING the Kaioken..."

Thank you, DragonBall Arena.

[Xyex]

Duo's made arguments that he wasn't using it prior to the aura being shown. But I've always had the impression from that battle, and Kaio's line, that Goku was using it from the begining. Thus, Goku doesn't need to be over a million to match with Freeza. Then, when Freeza goes to 50% Goku needs to up the Kaio Ken to a times 20. I just don't see Freeza being any stronger than 15 or 18 million. It's absurd to think his power surpasses 30 million and he's still scared of a Super Saiya-jin emerging.

[Thanos6]

Duo's made arguments that he wasn't using it prior to the aura being shown. But I've always had the impression from that battle, and Kaio's line, that Goku was using it from the begining. Thus, Goku doesn't need to be over a million to match with Freeza. Then, when Freeza goes to 50% Goku needs to up the Kaio Ken to a times 20. I just don't see Freeza being any stronger than 15 or 18 million. It's absurd to think his power surpasses 30 million and he's still scared of a Super Saiya-jin emerging.

Thank you, I too have had the impression of "Kaioken from the beginning."

I want to give you a hug.

[Tyro]

Now, let's examine the fight in question. Goku's eyes blank out, and there is an aura that flashes over him; these are signs of the Kaio-ken, which Goku has stated before does two things: 1) augment his power by folds and 2) (when used properly) work in bursts that last the span of a heartbeat. Freeza sees this and avoids the attack. The battle spills into the two of them fighting it out. Notice that now there is no Kaio-ken aura to speak of. The two fight evenly. Goku then uses another Kaio-ken aura to catch Freeza off guard and throw him away. Freeza comes back with a flight aura but is stopped. The fight continues and Goku exploits an opening, forcing Freeza to end it with a punch.

What does this tell us?

A) This cannot be the 10-fold Kaio-ken Kaio-sama speaks of Goku using later, as Freeza would have never dodged it. It can't even be a 3-fold Kaio-ken, as the power difference would have overwhelmed Freeza. This is a run of the mill Kaio-ken.

B) The two, in their normal states, are even in every respect even without a power augmentation to either side.

Then Freeza uses 50% of his maximum power and completely outstrips Goku. This next phrase is critical to the entire conversation:

Kaio-sama: "Sorry...But he's already using the 10-fold Kaio-ken..."

Logically, Goku has to have used it. Kaio-sama tells us this much. But pre-50% for the reasons I stated Goku could not possibly have used the 10-fold Kaio-ken aura. This means that the aura that flashes over him post-50% before Kaio-sama's comment is indeed a 10-fold Kaio-ken. But- and this is pivotal- Freeza easily counters with a kick that is so powerful it knocks him out of the 10-fold Kaio-ken aura. What does this mean? It means that Goku using a Kaio-ken aura that made him 10-fold stronger than himself (the same Goku who fought an even fight with Freeza) is now much weaker than Freeza, who is only using 50% of his power. Goku then tries a 20-fold Kaio-ken aura that (by logic and basic fact about the Kaio-ken) gives him the power to do slight damage to 50% Freeza in the burst it is sustained for. Even then, 50% Freeza is so strong he avoids the attack long enough to break away from it and stop the resulting Kamehameha one-handed. And did he take any damage from a Goku 20-fold stronger and shooting a Kamehameha his way?

Kuririn: "That Kamehameha should've packed a huge punch...why doesn't Freeza show any damage...?!"

The Chibi Kiriyama said this once. In my humble opinion, I think this says everything pretty straight forward and I agree with it 100%.

[Conan the SSJ]

Big explanation

I'm just curious, are you referring entirely to the manga? Because in the anime, the Kaioken aura is always an intense red appearance, that of which we only see such an aura of in the bursts mentioned by myself and shown in the shot above (as well as the big Kaioken x20 moment). In the anime, it visually doesn't appear Goku's using Kaioken until his normal full power is dwarfed by Freeza's 50% and he starts using it in bursts while Kaio begins talking to Tien and the others.

[Tyro]

I'm just curious, are you referring entirely to the manga?

Yes, sir, I am.

[Duo]

I want to complain that everything's been said and I don't get to add anything, but at the same time it makes my night easier.

I'll unload a bit anyway.

There's never any strong or even remote indication that Goku used Kaio-ken x10 from the beginning. He never shows any signs of using it, and he has always manifested a powerful (red) aura when using any level of Kaio-ken. The first time we see him use Kaio-ken in the Manga is when Freeza goes feet-only, and even then it's just for a couple short bursts, and probably a couple more in the Anime.

And when Kaio-sama makes his statement about the tenfold Kaio-ken, it's a page or two after we see Goku charge Freeza with an intense Kaio-ken aura around him only to be repelled with a nonchalant kick to the face. Since all Kaio-ken levels manifest the same aura and traits, Kaio's statement simply clarifies that, in that one occurence, Goku used the tenfold and not a lower level as he did before.

Okay...I'm sleepy now...

[Godo]

I wonder how Goku's base powerlevel could have gone from 90,000 to 3,000,000. That's 33 times increase of of his powerlevel. Noone in Dragonball has had such a huge zenkai before.
That's why I believe more in the 15,000,000 powerlevel of Goku.
I don't give a crap about what the Daizenshuu says.

[Duo]

I wonder how Goku's base powerlevel could have gone from 90,000 to 3,000,000. That's 33 times increase of of his powerlevel. Noone in Dragonball has had such a huge zenkai before.
That's why I believe more in the 15,000,000 powerlevel of Goku.
I don't give a crap about what the Daizenshuu says.

Goku does comment when he first exits that he's shocked and amazed at how much power he's gained, and relieved that he has it.

The closer the Saiyans got to becoming Super Saiyan, the greater the near-death power increases were. His body and mind were both ready and required this power as a preset for the transformation. Vegeta's increases were progressively larger too, as were Gohans. Goku's unreal increase was a culmunation of tihs.

Vegeta went from 18,000 to 24,000, and then to somewhere between 28,000 and 35,000, and from there to a level comparable to Freeza's first form (530,000) and again to a point where he could see Freeza's "Death Beam" but Piccolo (who was possibly as high as 1.5million) could not, thus meaning Vegeta might have been as strong or stronger than Freeza's third form.

Gohan, when enraged, went from tangling with and losing to Freeza's 2nd form to giving his 3rd form a scare, in just one near-death powerup.

In that sort of retrospect, it makes no sense for Goku NOT to have recieved a huge powerup.

[Dayspring]

[yadda]
In that sort of retrospect, it makes no sense for Goku NOT to have recieved a huge powerup.

Especially when you take into account the story's need for him to be stronger than everybody else when he gets out of the tank.

Irrealistic? It's a stretch, but we need him to go from (using manga only) well under 180,000 to well over 1 million. Who cares if it's a stretch given the other circumstances and what Duo said?

[Dayspring]

About Goku being kaioken x10 from the beginning, Piccolo tells Gohan and Krillin that he's not fighting full strength yet when they think Freeza killed him (Goku shows up behind them all dirty and clothes ragged and tell them to put some more distance between them and his fight). This proves he wasn't using kaioken yet (or at least not up to x10).

Then those three boosts of enegy when Freeza's not using his hands come prior (in the manga) to Kaio saying that Goku is using Kaioken x10. When he goes kaioken x20, Goku (in the manga) has the same aura as those three boosts. When Goku goes Kaioken against Ginyu, it's the same aura as well. Unless it's a colour manga, kaioken is just a white aura with strong black definition at its exterior. I think all this shows that Goku wasn't using kaioken x10 at the very beginning, which means his PL must be well over 1 million.

[Xyex]

In that sort of retrospect, it makes no sense for Goku NOT to have recieved a huge powerup.

Huge, yes, absurd, no. I believe Vegeta's maximum in his little scuffle with 1st form Freeza was probably about 400,000. Assuming he was at 40,000 thousand against Recoome, that's a 10x increase only. Then, from 400,000 to 2,500,000 is only a 6.25x increase. Meanwhile, 90,000 to 3,000,000 is 33.3~x increase.

I'll accept as high as around 15 fold increase for Goku (puting him around 1,350,000) as a 'huge' increase. But I wont take 33.3~x as anything other than ludicrous. If your 'it gets greater every time' was accurate then Vegeta's new power after Krillin's blast should be around 8 or 13 million, not 2.5 million.

[Duo]

Who are we to call it unrealistic? It somewhat breaks the trend we'd seen thus far, but the depths of Saiyan biology are never explored and explained on a deep level. How can the possibility of a 33.3x increase be ousted solely on one persons standards of "realistic"?

[LegendarySSJ7]

As I've reiterated a dozen times too many, there are many tip-offs that lead to the surmising that validates the notion of Goku fighting Freeza to a stalemate (or being weaker by an amount that still validates their stalemate). The telltale sign of the Kaio-ken is an aura uncontrolled and Goku's eyes blanking out; neither of which happens until a few bursts in their playful hands-off bout. Kaio-sama makes the round about observation that the fight was completely tantamount, and comments like 'NEITHER BUDGE AN INCH' easily hint to it. Toriyama-sensei is forgetful, but not so much so that the Kaio-ken aura is indistinguishable from Goku in his normal state. And let's not forget that both initially were very serene because their standings were a healthy divide from where they could have been. Freeza was very nonchalant and Goku displayed a similar attitude that reflects the aforesaid.

Anyway, as aforementioned above me, Goku had to have used the run-in-the-mill Kaio-ken to take Freeza off-guard in their scuffle (already having somewhat a notion to further of Freeza's respective reserves, which largely outstripped Goku's), it was only used in close range to wait for a limited opening, not to break Freeza's tail and cause him tremendous damage right there and then. Being pompous enough to withhold usage of his hands, Freeza ends the fight after openings are exploited in a single punch.

He then revs up to 50%, and his tremendous attacks are so immensely strong that he halts Goku's Kaio-ken x10-fueled assaults in a single hit which he isn't even putting any sort of palpable effort, if any, into, mind you. Then Goku goes Kaio-ken x20 and only manages to leave Freeza with burnt hands, a bit shaken up, and some consternation that the resulting, Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha of Goku's was sustained in the burst that it was used in was only just enough to rival his own power at half.

And why do most people keep on falling back to the Anime? It alters much of the stated facts. Quite some moot points. And as for the unpredictable nature of 'Zenkais' or auto-evolution mechanism augmentations, they are just that - unpredictable. It's only when Rou Kaioshin taps into just about every reserve Gohan has in the ritual of accessing, uncorking, and bringing out his latent power, that 'Zenkais' don't qualify for 'Zenkais' on his behalf. Hence that Boo makes said observation that Gohan has only been restored to his "former ineptitude".

Anyway, auto-evolutions increases can't be guaged on a consistent basis - the first time around, Vegeta goes from being lucidly under Dodoria to above Zarbon (in his normal state, apparently). The next time he goes from being that to Zarbon's (transformed state) superior (but not so much so that he can just beat him senseless... hence the lucid pre-emptive strike), but still pummeled by Reacoom on a whim (who, might I add, despite his burnt trappings and drawn blood, suffered absolutely no damage; his posturing and attitude, Vegeta's relatively quick beatdown, which isn't even noting that his power fell at such a quick rate, denote that Vegeta obviously wasn't any sort of match for Reacoom).

40,000 is a bit too high for Vegeta - around 35,000, as Duo stated, is a good maximum. But then Vegeta goes from being that to combating Freeza on a semi-equal plane (until he enters his 2nd suppression, or 1st stage, or 'transformation', if you prefer). He then goes from that to seeing Freeza (true form, minimal effort and power usage)'s attacks and startling him with his massive blast (but still not being a match), which means he's above Piccolo (who couldn't do any of that). Anyway, not the point - auto-evolution augmentations are not predictable in nature. Goku went from being Ginyu's inferior to Freeza's equal, still with plenty of reserves that merit the term 'auto-evolution increase'. In hindsight, Gohan's immense increases also validate this. As they reached the sweeping Super Saiyan state of lore, this all happened.

Well, anyway, not to twaddle and chide on about confutable and inconfutable things. Similar or dissimilar power levels aren't something I'd use as a template in the chaotic and spontaneous nature of the Saiyan biology and their auto-evolving (or 'near-death', as you will) increases. But, to answer the original topic starter's post many posts up, what you speak of is a dub line - the only thing we can do is make an observation or deduction based on assumption - in Nail's thrashing that was largely brutal but largely held back, Freeza was holding back enough to find merit in saying that, enough to be a long stride from 530,000 until his grapple with Vegeta.

Well, to draw this post to a close, I'm done typing. Au revoir.

[Conan the SSJ]

And why do most people keep on falling back to the Anime? It alters much of the stated facts.

Well, not all of us choose to discuss the events as they happen in the manga. This isn't a manga purist forum, though you and Duo may have a ball discussing certain things.

[Dayspring]

And why do most people keep on falling back to the Anime? It alters much of the stated facts.

Well, not all of us choose to discuss the events as they happen in the manga. This isn't a manga purist forum, though you and Duo may have a ball discussing certain things.

Fair enough, but you can't look for original, concrete answers from the anime and expect it to apply to both. For example, Goku's kaioken auras make a liar out of Kaio and leave it open for debate in the anime as to whether or not Goku's using Kaioken x10 from the beginning or not. There's no such ambiguity in the manga.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

My thoughts:

I have a bit of a theory on this whole "aura/ki power-up" business. Remember how when Kuririn was flying back from Saichorou's he had that thick, white aura? When he and Gohan initially powered up against the Ginyu Tokusentai, those auras where in full effect! But they were seldom seen during the fight itself. Does this mean that they weren't using their full power? Nah.

Likely, putting yourself at your limit all the time wears on your body. So you only "turn it on" right before you attack, to conserve energy. I mean, look at Goku during his fight with Vegeta. He never visibly "powers up" (Kaiou-ken aura) throughout his skirmishes with Recoome, Jeice, or Burter, or even Ginyu for a while, and yet his power fluxuates wildly from 1,000 to 60,000-90,000. This seems the only plausible explanation for the mechanics of most of the fights throught Dragon Ball.

Even with the most blatant SSJ power-up, 90% of the time we don't see the energy and the hair's all off-white. I'll stop running my mouth now. ;P Basically that's my argument to support the possibility that Son Goku was using bursts of Kaiou-ken since the beginning.

Thoughts?

[Godo]

My thoughts:

I have a bit of a theory on this whole "aura/ki power-up" business. Remember how when Kuririn was flying back from Saichorou's he had that thick, white aura? When he and Gohan initially powered up against the Ginyu Tokusentai, those auras where in full effect! But they were seldom seen during the fight itself. Does this mean that they weren't using their full power? Nah.

Likely, putting yourself at your limit all the time wears on your body. So you only "turn it on" right before you attack, to conserve energy. I mean, look at Goku during his fight with Vegeta. He never visibly "powers up" (Kaiou-ken aura) throughout his skirmishes with Recoome, Jeice, or Burter, or even Ginyu for a while, and yet his power fluxuates wildly from 1,000 to 60,000-90,000. This seems the only plausible explanation for the mechanics of most of the fights throught Dragon Ball.

Even with the most blatant SSJ power-up, 90% of the time we don't see the energy and the hair's all off-white. I'll stop running my mouth now. ;P Basically that's my argument to support the possibility that Son Goku was using bursts of Kaiou-ken since the beginning.

Thoughts?

Seems logical to me!

(Off Topic: We need more emoticons...)

[Phenomenol]

My thoughts:

I have a bit of a theory on this whole "aura/ki power-up" business. Remember how when Kuririn was flying back from Saichorou's he had that thick, white aura? When he and Gohan initially powered up against the Ginyu Tokusentai, those auras where in full effect! But they were seldom seen during the fight itself. Does this mean that they weren't using their full power? Nah.

Likely, putting yourself at your limit all the time wears on your body. So you only "turn it on" right before you attack, to conserve energy. I mean, look at Goku during his fight with Vegeta. He never visibly "powers up" (Kaiou-ken aura) throughout his skirmishes with Recoome, Jeice, or Burter, or even Ginyu for a while, and yet his power fluxuates wildly from 1,000 to 60,000-90,000. This seems the only plausible explanation for the mechanics of most of the fights throught Dragon Ball.

Even with the most blatant SSJ power-up, 90% of the time we don't see the energy and the hair's all off-white. I'll stop running my mouth now. ;P Basically that's my argument to support the possibility that Son Goku was using bursts of Kaiou-ken since the beginning.

Thoughts?

Kurrin flying back from place to place with an Aura is usally just ki boosting his speed for that time. The impression has always been a power-up before a good battle and after that power-up the Z warrior is ALWAYS in FULL power.

It really is a simple concept seen throughout the series.