Who's stronger: Goku or Gohan?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Xyex
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Post by Xyex » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:56 pm

Duo wrote:Considering we first butted heads about 3 years ago, I'd say we both have matured a great deal since then, and we probably agree on a lot more than we realize, and just end up always discussing the few, however critical, subjects that we don't see the same way, such as...

- 100% Freeza's power level
- Basically anything involving Broli
- Whether or not Gohan went Super Saiyan 2 against Dabura.
True, but we still come to stand on opposite sides of most things. Maybe it's just cause those topics come up more, but either way, it still feels odd to not disagree with you over everything anymore. :P
Duo wrote:Yeah, this is one case where I basically throw the Anime's viewpoint out the window, because I cannot find any sense in Chibi Boo being the mightiest Majin. It goes against so much else we see beforehand that it would cause the plot to literally collapse within itself, cause a time paradox, and destroy the entire universe, along with all of us.
Nah, the narrator was just drunk that day. That's all. >>

But yeah, it was just a case of either a) The anime wanting to make the ending battle more exciting by having Buu stronger, b) Toei not paying attention and not realizing that Kid Buu is actually considerably weaker than most of the other forms of Buu we saw, or c) Toei not caring and wanting to make Goku the strongest there is despite all logic saying otherwise. :?

And in this case, the line is easily discarded as not having any meaning, even in the anime. What it says has no effect on what's already been shown beforehand. One line can not override dozens of episodes and simple logic. :lol:
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Post by Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece » Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:12 pm

Xyex wrote:c) Toei not caring and wanting to make Goku the strongest there is despite all logic saying otherwise.
Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece wrote:Normal Kid Goku is obviously the strongest character ever (thanks to Toei).
Last edited by Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece on Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Duo » Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:24 pm

Phenomenol wrote:Thank you.
I am insulted that you think I would use Dub lines. Did you not base your entire argument for Broli destroying a Galaxy on a dubline? Indeed, you did. I do not watch the dub, so it would be impossible for me to reference it, nor would I want to. (For the love of everything good in this world, if anyone tries to re-start said Broli > Galaxy argument, I will personally kill them, via PM. Somehow.)

And how could I quote Viz on an Anime-exclusive line?
Xyex wrote:And in this case, the line is easily discarded as not having any meaning, even in the anime. What it says has no effect on what's already been shown beforehand. One line can not override dozens of episodes and simple logic.
It would be awesome if everyone bought into that line of thought. Didn't the dub (speak of the devil) add more support towards Chibi Boo? I do not recall as I only saw a couple of those episodes dubbed when they first aired on Cartoon Network.

I do remember thinking Ssj3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan were equal when I played Budokai 2 though. Just the whole "energy consumption difference" people like to say. Kinda enforces the "don't consider video games an information authority" thing.

@Conan - thanks for putting that link up. I wouldn't have had the patience to find it.

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Post by Conan the SSJ » Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:47 pm

Duo wrote:Didn't the dub (speak of the devil) add more support towards Chibi Boo?
Yeah, the FUNi writers have Kabitoshin specifically say "This is [Buu's] original form, he's more powerful than ever!" And hell people, this is the same anime battle where normal-form Vegeta thought he could stand up to Kid Buu, despite his Ultimate Suicide only knocking the breath out of the much weaker fat Buu. Anime version of this battle as it is contradicts the manga quite a bit in some subtle areas. Kid Buu's the strongest, Vegeta doesn't need lightning in his SSJ2 aura, Freeza and his posse are watching the battle in Hell, etc., etc.
14 years later

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Post by Xyex » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:37 pm

I do remember thinking Ssj3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan were equal when I played Budokai 2 though. Just the whole "energy consumption difference" people like to say. Kinda enforces the "don't consider video games an information authority" thing.
Yeah, I think they're pretty close in both B2 and B3. But, as you say, you can't take the games as accurate anyway. They make them to be playable, not accurate (with the possible exception of the idiots at Spike). After all, in the Budokai 3, you can use stat boosting capsules to make Hercule or Videl or Tien or anyone else stronger than SSJ4 Goku.
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Post by Duo » Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:54 pm

In B2's story board mode, you can boost Goten off of Trunks and Goku along with a couple boost spots in the last map enough to put his defense over 200% and make him completely invincible to all damage.

Accurate?

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Post by Kaboom » Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:18 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote: Anime version of this battle as it is contradicts the manga quite a bit in some subtle areas. Kid Buu's the strongest, Vegeta doesn't need lightning in his SSJ2 aura, Freeza and his posse are watching the battle in Hell, etc., etc.
Yet it was still so undeniably, unequivocally made of RAW AWESOME at the same time. Toei took the series out with a bang with the entire Kid Buu arc, lemme tell ya.
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Post by Duo » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:19 am

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Conan the SSJ wrote: Anime version of this battle as it is contradicts the manga quite a bit in some subtle areas. Kid Buu's the strongest, Vegeta doesn't need lightning in his SSJ2 aura, Freeza and his posse are watching the battle in Hell, etc., etc.
Yet it was still so undeniably, unequivocally made of RAW AWESOME at the same time. Toei took the series out with a bang with the entire Kid Buu arc, lemme tell ya.
I gotta admit, watching those DVD's in Japanese is always a blast. Learning to get over things that disagree with the Manga re-opened that world to me. The Ssj2 Goku vs. Chibi Boo portion is jaw-dropping levels of pwnage rarely seen outside the movies.

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Post by Phenomenol » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:33 am

Duo wrote:I am insulted that you think I would use Dub lines. Did you not base your entire argument for Broli destroying a Galaxy on a dubline? Indeed, you did. I do not watch the dub, so it would be impossible for me to reference it, nor would I want to. (For the love of everything good in this world, if anyone tries to re-start said Broli > Galaxy argument, I will personally kill them, via PM. Somehow.)

And how could I quote Viz on an Anime-exclusive line?
I HAD to base my argument on a dub line concerning Broli because I didn't know how to upload the Japanese subtitled Movie. I sure as hell used the Japanese "ATTACKED" dialogue as soon it was posted!

Sometimes people quote the dub and use the Viz translationh for the manga as a reference.

It's Odd nobody here uses the Daizenshuu's and this is a Daizenshuu EX forum as references. :?:
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Post by Duo » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:50 am

That's mostly because the Daizenshuu are extremely rare and were only released in Japanese and French. If I could access them in English, however expensive, you can bet I'd be sourcing them.

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Post by Phenomenol » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:08 am

Duo wrote:That's mostly because the Daizenshuu are extremely rare and were only released in Japanese and French. If I could access them in English, however expensive, you can bet I'd be sourcing them.
Where could I get them (I am willing to buy them)?

I bet they would have info concerning Dragonball's level of power and what is canon and what not.

I am really tired of speculating.
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Post by DemonKingPiccolo » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:26 am

To answer the question on the thread, Gohan is much stronger then Goku by the end of the series. Toei makes you believe that Goku is through it's horridly contradicting movie: Wrath of the Dragon.
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Post by Duo » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:38 am

DemonKingPiccolo wrote:To answer the question on the thread, Gohan is much stronger then Goku by the end of the series. Toei makes you believe that Goku is through it's horridly contradicting movie: Wrath of the Dragon.
Toei made a movie called "Dragon Fist Explosion!! If Goku Won't Do It, Who Will?" Wrath of the Dragon is this odd name put on the FUNimation DVD that holds little importance once the audio track is properly adjusted.

And, a case can be made for the fact that when Goku faced Hildegarn as Super Saiyan 3, the monster had been damaged by Trunks sword, and Goku was also aware of it's weakness, which he learned from watching Gohan and the others fight it. I haven't watched the movie recently, but it's not quite as insane as people make it out to be.

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Post by Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:20 am

I just bought it =D

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Post by Sshadow5001 » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:49 am

I suppose Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu but Kid Buu is very crazy, doesn’t hold back and is very unpredictable.

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Post by Duo » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:33 pm

Sshadow5001 wrote:I suppose Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu but Kid Buu is very crazy, doesn’t hold back and is very unpredictable.
Hence being coined as the most dangerous. You can't manipulate him like Piccolo manipulated "Super" Boo before the Room of Spirit and Time fight.

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