Goku's SSJ power on Namek

[Teclo]

I actually read on another website that the Daizenshuu power level information may actually be wrong and contradictory. I'm no expert but much of what this guy is claiming seems to make sense:

http://www.pojo.com/dragonball/power2.shtml

[Kaboom]

I actually read on another website that the Daizenshuu power level information may actually be wrong and contradictory. I'm no expert but much of what this guy is claiming seems to make sense:

http://www.pojo.com/dragonball/power2.shtml

http://www.pojo.com/dragonball/power2.shtml

http://www.pojo.com/

pojo

>_O;

[Teclo]

>_O;

Care to elaborate?

[caejones]

Pojo is... urm... not known for accuracy.

There are some power levels in the Daizenshuu that are blatently a little off (I think Raitz and Nappa at a couple points are a bit out of context... but I'm not sure).
I think I'm going to dig up the Chibi Kiriyama's justification of the Freeza saga PLs if it hasn't been done already...

[Casual Matt]

Ah, Pojo. That site was cool back when I was in High School.

[caejones]

Yeah, pojo = useful when you have nothing but Dub Season3... ^^

This is an extremely extensive and thorough analysis of the whole debate at hand. I think it's worth a good read.

*Reads*

...And THIS, ladies and gentlemen, is a prime example of someone having WAAAAAY too much time on their hands.


Nevertheless, it's right. Sorry, Godo. I've been converted to the way of the Daizenshuu.

[Teclo]

Ok, well the general worth of Pojo.com aside, that guy is actually disagreeing with what he saw on Pojo.com - he's seen the Daizenshuu listing as given by the webmaster and written that to show what he believes are contradictions or slip ups in the power level listings.

Some of what he says is pretty presumptuous and just speculation but on the other hand, some of it sounds like it makes sense. I would just add that the Daizenshuu aren't written by Toriyama but by his staff and so in that sense are only as accurate as the movies or as GT. Hell, even what Toriyama himself said didn't always add up.

[Akira]

That Pojo stuff, even people "Correcting" errors make errors. How could Monster Zarbon be stronger than Vegeta and lose to Vegeta? Here's what I finally came up with, I re-read the manga chapters today, and based on what Freeza, Dodoria, Zarbon, Kui, and Vegeta say, and what happens in subsequent fights, it seems a fair assumption to make the following Battle Power list for that segment of the series:

Namek:
18,000 - Kui
22,000 - Dodoria
23,000 - Zarbon
28,000 - Zarbon (Second Form)
24,000 - Vegeta
30,000 - Vegeta (After healing tank and subsequent Zenkai)

How did I come to this?

Kui - Says his power is the same as Vegeta now, but he last read Vegeta's power before the Saiyan went to earth, which was 18,000.

Dodoria & Zarbon - both were stronger than Vegeta and Kui previously. Then they read Vegeta's power of 24,000 on Namek, and Freeza states that Vegeta is now stronger than both of them now, but not by much. Zarbon is stronger than Dodoria. Therefore the 22,000 and 23,000.

Zarbon (Monster Form) - Strong enough to beat Vegeta the first time they fight when Vegeta is at 24,000, but low enough that Vegeta is able to keep up briefly before getting pounded. Low enough that when Vegeta comes out of the Healing Tank, and we know his power is 30,000 then Zarbon gets beaten outright by Vegeta. Is a transformation, so must yield a significant power boost within that range, thus the 28,000.

That logic is fairly sound, so I have finally added battle powers for these characters to my list. I am always reluctant to do so unless I can nearly determine it without having to rely on pure speculation, which I have been able to do this time.

I am re-reading the Freeza saga in the Manga, and will show the updated list when I am finished. The Freeza battle powers are dead on now guys. Except for Form 3, it is the only one in question.

[Casual Matt]

I have to say, Akira, those numbers seem fairly sound.

[Akira]

Thanks man, I strive for accuracy, and won't list a battle power that I can't provide some serious Manga evidence to back up. If I can't determine it, I don't try to guess, as that sort of thing just aggitates me.

Edit: Here are some more I was able to determine after re-reading the Ginyu Chapters:

Battle with the Ginyu Force:
13,000 – Krillin
14,000 – Son Gohan
30,000 – Vegeta
40,000 – Recoome
40,000 – Jeice
40,000 – Burter
120,000 – Commander Ginyu (maximum)
23,000 – Commander Ginyu (in Goku’s body)
5,000 – Son Goku (ki suppressed)
90,000 – Son Goku
180,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)
900,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x10 – Referenced, not used in battle)

Here's how I came to these assumptions:

Recoome - Stronger than Vegeta, enough so to be able to seriously damage him, but still be damaged by Vegeta as well. Never touched Goku and was beaten by a single blow. Commander Ginyu estimates that Goku must be 60,000 to be able to do this to his team, so must be significantly weaker than that estimate of Goku's ability to allow that Goku could have still done that if he were only 60,000.

Burter and Jeice - Krillin senses their ki and says they have the exact same battle power as Recoome.

Son Goku - 180,000 is stated when Ginyu reads Goku at Kaioken x2 with the scouter. Goku says that is nothing compared to when he uses his power in bursts. Goku is refering to being able to us a Kaioken x10, which he says he is now capable of upon completion of his training on the ship when he is almost to Namek. Had he actually used his power in bursts, it would have been at 900,000 in bursts via Kaioken x10.

I will continue to read these manga volumes and scrutinize whatever other powers can be determined based on the logic and math in the manga. Guldo is the one power I cannot determine based on anything said or shown. Krillin refers to Guldo as a "shrimp" when he senses his power upon the arrival of the Ginyu force. That would put him at well below 10,000, given that Krillin is only at 13,000 at that point. However, an exact number or even a solid estimate cannot be determined unless anyone has any other information on the matter.

In the Anime, long before Vegeta went to earth, he too mocked Guldo as being weak in a flashback scene on Freeza's planet. Vegeta would have been at 18,000 or below at that point, which varifies that Guldo was indeed a weakling, but doesn't do anything to help determine an exact number or range for the funky alien.

[Tyro]

Recoome - Stronger than Vegeta, enough so to be able to seriously damage him, but still be damaged by Vegeta as well.

All Vegeta and his barrage of attacks were able to do was destroy Reacoom's armor and cause very slight battle damage. In fact, the battle damage was so low that Gohan didn't even consider him damaged.

Son Gohan: "H-He isn't......even wounded..."

Then Reacoom makes another statement.

Reacoom: "That's enough warm-up for me! Now, let's really get started!!"

[Conan the SSJ]

Akira: Keep in mind, Kuririn and Gohan were said to be at 13,000 and 14,000 when Zarbon detected them as they defeated the scouts that destroyed their ship. That was prior to the battle with the Ginyu team, in between of those two battles they had their hidden powers released by the Great Elder. Considering Vegeta thought Gohan was Goku after he'd had his powers boosted, I'd say that's a significant increase beyond 15,000.

[Akira]

I thought that was when Zarbon said to Freeza, "Two powers around 1,500 each". Their powers were still around 1,770 for Krillin and 2,800 for Gohan from the end of the Vegeta Saga fight. Supressed to 1,500 each at that point.

I am fairly certain the Daizenshuu guide showed the 13,000 for Krillin and 14,000 for Gohan at the battle with the Ginyu force. It showed the frame for each from when they powered up to fight Guldo. That was their unlocked powers. Vegeta remembered Goku being at 8,000 on earth with a 16,000 power at Kaioken x2. So mistaking 14,000 for Goku is believable based on what he remembered. If he figured Goku had been training, which I am sure he did. He probably assumed that was his base power then, and the mistake makes sense.

[Casual Matt]

I just checked and in episode 45 Zarbon says "Their battle powers were both around 1500," referring to Gohan and Kuririn powered up to defeat the two soldiers.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The Power Levels on Namek after Freeza's stated ''over a million'', are pretty much a toss-up. I agree with a lot of the power levels posted, but, Freeza cannot possibly have only a maximum of 120,000,000, especially if people think that SSJ Goku has a level of 150,000,000, which spells ''Total Domination''.

I don't like the large numbers all that much, but here's what a think of Freeza's power levels.

Freeza {Form-1} 530,000 {stated by him}

Freeza {Form-2} 1,060,000 {I'm assuming his transformation doubles his power by his previous base power}

Freeza {Form-2, Powered-up} 1,210,000 {After Gohan knocked him around}

Freeza {Form-2, Powered-up again} 1,600,000 {Now, there is no visible aura. But, he hits Piccolo pretty hard, while shocking everyone with his power. So, he had to increase his power, somewhat}

Freeza {Form-3} 2,300,000 {Freeza states his power increases more with every transformation. Therefore, it wouldn't hurt to put him around there}

Freeza {Form-4, using a small percentage of power} 3,600,000 {He fights Goku to a standstill in this form, and even has some trouble. Him and Goku are almost close in power. So, this is a good level for him}

Freeza {Form-4, using half of full power}48,000,000 {His power increased a lot once he powered-up. Causing Goku's KK-10 to look irrelevant, along with his KK-20=Kame-Hame-Ha}

Freeza {Form-4, using 70% of power} 60,000,000 { Now, there is no clear statement of him saying he's using 70%, but it doesn't hurt to assume after he threw his fireball at the planets core, he reached 70%}

Freeza {Form-4, Full Power} 88,000,000 { Now, this is what I Think Freeza's level is at Full-Power, and here's why. Now, as I said: I don't believe his power, or Goku's exceeded 100,000,000. Goku was probably around 3,000,000 when fighting Freeza, and here is where it's tricky}

Goku, {after exausting the KK-10, taking a serious beat-down from Freeza at half power, using a KK-20+Kame-Hame-Ha, which caused him to lose a lot of chi, and attacking Freeza with the Spirit Bomb} had to have lost a serious amount of power. There is no way his power is still 3,000,000. Now, they say Super Saiyan multiplies the power by 50, so, by my estimates, Goku is probably around 1,800,000, which is a guess on my part. Once he turns into a Super Saiyan, his power multiplied from there is about 90,000,000.

Again, that's just how I see it. Him and Freeza are closer in power, then the 150,000,000/120,000,000 calculation. Hopefully some of you can see my point.

I also think Guldo could possibly have a power level of about 2-3,000. Some people suggested his power is probably 10,000. If he was that strong, I don't think Krillin and Vegeta would comment on how weak he is. mainly because that's not too far from Gohan and Krillin.

[Rocketman]

The Power Levels on Namek after Freeza's stated ''over a million'', are pretty much a toss-up. I agree with a lot of the power levels posted, but, Freeza cannot possibly have only a maximum of 120,000,000, especially if people think that SSJ Goku has a level of 150,000,000, which spells ''Total Domination''.

It was Total Domination. Even on the couple of times where Freeza surprised Goku and hit him hard, Goku just got back up with a "lol".

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

It was Total Domination. Even on the couple of times where Freeza surprised Goku and hit him hard, Goku just got back up with a "lol".

Yeah, your exactly right. The power was still not enough to overwhelm SSJ Goku. It's just that, Freeza did put up a good fight, until Goku told him his chi was weakening because he was at full power. If that 150,000,000/120,000,000 is an accurate measurement of their power levels, then Freeza shouldn't even be able to touch Goku, right?

[Kaboom]

The Power Levels on Namek after Freeza's stated ''over a million'', are pretty much a toss-up. I agree with a lot of the power levels posted, but, Freeza cannot possibly have only a maximum of 120,000,000, especially if people think that SSJ Goku has a level of 150,000,000, which spells ''Total Domination''.

It was Total Domination. Even on the couple of times where Freeza surprised Goku and hit him hard, Goku just got back up with a "lol".

Right. The Final Flash pinched a bit, too, but Perfect Cell stilled easily pwnzed Vegeta.

[Xyex]

I don't think the Daizenshuu's anywhere near accurate for the Freeza battle powers. I peg them more as 50 and 54 million. It adds up like this:

Goku - 1,080,000
+ Kaio Ken - 2,160,000
+ Kaio Ken x3 - 3,240,000
+ Kaio Ken x10 - 10,800,000
+ Kaio Ken x20 - 21,600,000
+ Super Saiya-jin - 54,000,000

Freeza - 300,000
+ Powered up - 530,000
+ Second Form - 1,060,000
+ Powered up - 1,300,000
+ Powered up - 1,600,000
+ Third Form - 2,100,000
+ Fourth Form - 3,000,000
+ 50% Power - 25,000,000
+ Full Power - 50,000,000