Kaioken attack question

[Darkprince410]

My guess is that there is a maximum Kaioken and Goku kind of mastered it, making its power part of his base energy level. So when Goku's base previously was at, say, 3,000,000, (that's five comma's!) he's always at 20 times that because of the Kaioken.
This means that Goku mastered the Kaioken in such a way that the red aura and the danger to his body are gone. It's just a thought, but I think this little theory fits the idea of Goku moving on 'beyond' the Kaioken technique. During the fight against Freeza (pre-SSj), Tenshinhan notes that Goku was still able to use Kaioken. Kaio-sama then informs him that Goku's already using it.

However, we see that he's exhibiting the distinctive Kaiou-ken aura multiple times during said fight, so at that time, he still didn't have (as you say), mastery of the technique. It's more plausible that after he reached Super Saiya-jin, he completely disregarded the Kaiou-ken due to its inferiority over his Ssj state (at the time, not generating enough of a boost while at the same time putting far more of a strain on his body).

[Terra-jin]

That's assuming that there's no way to combine the Kaioken and SSj energy amplifications. However, I don't see any reason or proof why those techniques can't be combined. We even see a SSj / Kaioken Goku during the fight versus Paikuhan. Then again, this was during a time in which Goku should have mastered Kaioken the way I described earlier... it's rather confusing, therefore open to multiple views.

[kaioken12]

Goku vs. Paikuhan was anime-only, so it's not really my favorite to base my thoughts on.

But then again, Goku couldn't use the kaioken very long, just one blow, so I don't think it's compatible as SSJ is already boosting his stats and giving I'm an energy strain for more power in exchange.

It is generally (in normal form) thought to be a "short" power boost, while SSJ is longer depending on a saiyan's power level and mastery of the form.
It has not the same kind of strain on the body as the kaioken.

As for Goku having always kaioken on Namek:
The others watching the fight Goku - Freeza with Kaio were not aware that Goku already used it - he really used Kaioken with all aura and so on.

[Darkprince410]

Gokuu was using it in such short bursts and, prior to Furiiza going to 50% of his full power, only using it sparingly to gain some leverage over him. Remember, the others weren't really watching the fight, as Kaiou-sama was acting as their commentator (that's why they didn't know things like Furiiza trying to blow Nameksei up, Gokuu fighting evenly with Furiiza, and that Gokuu ended up beating him). As such, they wouldn't know that he's using it.

[Akira]

Goku learned the Kaioken technique from North Kaio, who stated he was never able to master it himself to double his own strength. He was able to use the technique to enhance his speed and strength slightly in small bursts, and this is even demonstrated in the anime as he used the technique as he and Goku train with it to blow through small brick walls set up on the road around his small planet.

The aura of this "Kaioken x1" if you will is white. North Kaio wears out soon after he uses it for a short time, but Goku continues to use it with ease and shows that he might be able of mastering it to double his strength. The basic Kaioken is nothing but a learning step towards using the move in the way that it can multiply one's strength in bursts.

The Red Aura Kaioken, unless mentioned to be otherwise, is always the first level mastery which doubles the user's strength and battle power. Otherwise known as the "Kaioken x2". Goku often just names the technique, but does not bother to say the redundant "Times Two." However, everytime he fires up the fiery red ki boost, it is usually a simple Double Kaioken.

Here is an example from the Vegeta Saga fight Battle Powers:

Son Goku:
8000 Base
16000 Kaioken x2
24000 Kaioken x3
32000 Kaioken x4

It is literal multipliers. Later Goku's skills and abilities enhance from training in 100x Gravity on the way towards Namek and he is far stronger, so the basic double Kaioken is easily sustained for longer periods of time without nearly as much strain.

Here is an example from the fight with Commander Ginyu:

Son Goku:
90000 Base
180000 Kaioken x2

Then, in after healing in the Regeneration Tank, Goku receives a major Zenkai and his power soars. He is able to press the Kaioken to extreme Multipliers, and presses himself to the limits in his fight aginst Freeza and the ensuing struggle to try and keep up with him.

Freeza (Final Form):
3000000 - 25% Power
6000000 - 50% Power
9000000 - 75% Power
12000000 - 100% Power (Buff form)

Son Goku:
300000 - Base
3000000 - Kaioken x10
6000000 - Kaioken x20
150000000 - Super Saiyan (1)

The Kaioken is my favorite technique in the entire Dragonball series. I've done the research in the Manga and Anime. Any further questions, I'd be happy to explain.

[Xyex]

(don't most people think it multiplies your power by 1.5 or something the first time?)

I think most people are just confused. I used to consider that it was a 1.5x increase (and that's still what I use for my fanfics for various reasons).

[Darkprince410]

Freeza (Final Form):
3000000 - 25% Power
6000000 - 50% Power
9000000 - 75% Power
12000000 - 100% Power (Buff form)

Son Goku:
300000 - Base
3000000 - Kaioken x10
6000000 - Kaioken x20
150000000 - Super Saiyan (1)

The Kaioken is my favorite technique in the entire Dragonball series. I've done the research in the Manga and Anime. Any further questions, I'd be happy to explain.

I'm hoping that you missed a zero in the first three numbers you gave for Gokuu, otherwise you're insinuating that the Ssj transformation is a 500x base increase. If you're going with the 12m and 15m power levels, the Daizenshuu points otherwise, as they're listed as 120m and 150m.

Likewise, if you look at Gokuu's fight with Furiiza, prior to Furiiza making the boast that he can beat Gokuu without using his hands, Gokuu is not shown with any Kaiou-ken aura whatsoever. He was effectively fighting Furiiza at an even pace (who was at the same level of power when he savagely beat Bejiita), so Gokuu's base had to have been in the millions for this to happen.

[Akira]

Yeah, I looked it back over, and It looks like I am missing some zeros in there. I should have put the commas in there to make sure I didn't make that mistake. You are correct that 120 Million and 150 Million were the battle powers for Freeza and Super Saiyan Goku. I just typoed on my zeroes.

[Conan the SSJ]

Freeza (Final Form):
3000000 - 25% Power
6000000 - 50% Power
9000000 - 75% Power
12000000 - 100% Power (Buff form)

Son Goku:
300000 - Base
3000000 - Kaioken x10
6000000 - Kaioken x20
150000000 - Super Saiyan (1)

These levels are actually a lot higher, as there was a considerable translation mistake on the Daizenshuu made around 10 years ago that basically became "common knowledge" to everyone. Anyone wanna pull up what the real levels were for Goku and Freeza? I think Goku's base was more like 3,000,000.

[Ex-Dubbie369]

Well, he got SSJ Goku right.

[Tyro]

These levels are actually a lot higher, as there was a considerable translation mistake on the Daizenshuu made around 10 years ago that basically became "common knowledge" to everyone. Anyone wanna pull up what the real levels were for Goku and Freeza? I think Goku's base was more like 3,000,000.

[Akira]

Between the Daizenshuu Scans, the Manga and the Anime, I have deduced the following. Many of which you just use the math to determine certain levels that aren't mentioned. Like Goku at Kaioken x3 against Vegeta. We know what the x2 was and the x4, figuring out the x3 is cake, so is figuring out Freeza's power levels based on percentages.

I went over this list I made a long time ago, it seems to have the correct numbers. I watched the Anime through the Vegeta and Freeza Sagas, read those chapters in the Manga, and looked at those Daizenshuu scans that were provided.

I have heard that the bios in one of the Daizenshuu guides provide numbers or "Around this number" for chartacters like Recoome and Dodoria. Does any one have scans of these pages that I could look at?

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Oh yeah, here's that list:

DRAGONBALL POWER LEVEL GUIDE
(These numbers come directly from the Dragonball Daizenshuu Guidebook, Original Manga volumes, or the Anime)

Bardock Special:
530,000 – Freeza (form 1)
10,000 – Bardock
100,000 – Oozaru Bardock
2 – Kakkarot (Infant Goku)

At the Beginning:
10 – Son Goku
100 – Oozaru Son Goku (Giant Ape form multiplies Saiyan power by 10)

22nd World Martial Arts Tournament:
120 – Master Shen
139 – Master Roshi (Disguised as Jackie Chun)
180 – Son Goku
180 – Tenshinhan

At the Battle with Piccolo Daimao:
260 – Son Goku
260 – Piccolo Daimao

At the Battle with Raditz:
5 – Farmer
1,500 – Raditz
710 – Son Gohan
1,307 – Son Gohan (maximum – hidden power unleashed)
334 – Son Goku (with weighted clothing)
416 – Son Goku (without weighted clothing)
924 – Son Goku (maximum power – Kamehameha)
322 – Piccolo Junior (with weighted clothing)
408 – Piccolo Junior (without weighted clothing)
1,330 – Piccolo Junior (maximum power – Makosensappa)

Bulma uses Scouter to locate Z Warriors:
139 – Master Roshi
177 – Yamcha
206 – Krillin
250 – Tenshinhan
329 – Piccolo (with weighted clothing)

Arrival of Nappa and Vegeta:
981 – Son Gohan (ki suppressed)
1,083 – Krillin (ki suppressed)
1,220 – Piccolo (ki suppressed)





Battle against Saibamen and Nappa:
610 – Chaotzu (maximum)
1,480 – Yamcha (maximum)
1,770 – Krillin (maximum)
1,830 – Tenshinhan (maximum)
2,800 – Son Gohan (maximum)
3,500 – Piccolo (maximum)
1,200 – Saibaman
4,000 – Nappa
8,000 – Nappa (maximum)
5,000 – Son Goku (ki suppressed)
8,000 – Son Goku

Battle against Vegeta:
1,770 – Krillin
2,800 – Son Gohan
28,000 – Oozaru Son Gohan
8,000 – Son Goku
16,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)
24,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x3)
32,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x4)
18,000 – Vegeta
24,000 – Vegeta (maximum – Gallick-ho)
180,000 – Oozaru Vegeta

Hunt for Dragonballs on Namek:
1,000 – Namekian Warrior (ki suppressed)
3,000 – Namekian Warrior (maximum)
1,500 – Son Gohan (ki suppressed)
1,500 – Krillin (ki suppressed)
18,000 – Kui
24,000 – Vegeta

Battle with the Ginyu Force:
13,000 – Krillin (maximum)
14,000 – Son Gohan (maximum)
30,000 – Vegeta (maximum)

Battle with Commander Ginyu:
120,000 – Commander Ginyu (maximum)
23,000 – Commander Ginyu (in Goku’s body)
5,000 – Son Goku (ki suppressed)
90,000 – Son Goku
180,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)



Battle with Freeza:
42,000 – Nail
1,000,000 – Piccolo (merged with Nail)

530,000 – Freeza (form 1)
1,000,000 – Freeza (form 2)
1,100,000 – Freeza (form 3)
1,200,000 – Freeza (final form 1%)
30,000,000 – Freeza (final form 25%)
60,000,000 – Freeza (final form 50%)
90,000,000 – Freeza (final form 75%)
120,000,000 – Freeza (final form 100%)

3,000,000 – Son Goku
30,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x10)
60,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x20)
150,000,000 – Super Saiyan Son Goku

Return to Earth:
5 – Trunks (ki suppressed)

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I look through that list now and still seems like I am right on with most of it. There are a couple questionable/debatable things in there, sure. However, there isn't any level given where I went off half cocked on what "I think" or "I believe". I only wanted levels descernable from the manga and so forth. Anything after they read Future Trunks' suppressed power is ridiculous. Sure I could make an educated guess, but nothing is given after that to even begin to say what is correct or not. I don't even care about Power Levels anymore, but I made myself a guide for reference sake (Mostly because I like the Kaioken technique so much and like keeping track of its multipliers.) Also so I can call foul when I see people quoting certain levels, and it is pure speculation on their part. Anyway, this should make up for my typo.

[DemonKingPiccolo]

My guess is that there is a maximum Kaioken and Goku kind of mastered it, making its power part of his base energy level. So when Goku's base previously was at, say, 3,000,000, (that's five comma's!) he's always at 20 times that because of the Kaioken.
This means that Goku mastered the Kaioken in such a way that the red aura and the danger to his body are gone. It's just a thought, but I think this little theory fits the idea of Goku moving on 'beyond' the Kaioken technique. During the fight against Freeza (pre-SSj), Tenshinhan notes that Goku was still able to use Kaioken. Kaio-sama then informs him that Goku's already using it.

I believe that Goku mastered the regular Kaioken. He actually sustained a kaioken against Ginyu for longer then a "heartbeat". (Evidence: They are conversing, and you are a flippin' motor-mouth if you can converse with someone in a heartbeat).

[Tyro]

My guess is that there is a maximum Kaioken and Goku kind of mastered it, making its power part of his base energy level. So when Goku's base previously was at, say, 3,000,000, (that's five comma's!) he's always at 20 times that because of the Kaioken.
This means that Goku mastered the Kaioken in such a way that the red aura and the danger to his body are gone. It's just a thought, but I think this little theory fits the idea of Goku moving on 'beyond' the Kaioken technique. During the fight against Freeza (pre-SSj), Tenshinhan notes that Goku was still able to use Kaioken. Kaio-sama then informs him that Goku's already using it.

I believe that Goku mastered the regular Kaioken. He actually sustained a kaioken against Ginyu for longer then a "heartbeat". (Evidence: They are conversing, and you are a flippin' motor-mouth if you can converse with someone in a heartbeat).

He actually told Ginyu that the Kaio-ken was stronger (although I believe he just means more efficient) when he uses it in bursts.