Are the Saiya-jin stronger than Piccolo in their base forms?

[Neon Z]

About the power of a SSJ transformation... In Boo Saga, Yakon's power was 800 kilis. Goku, in base, was easily beating him, but, after Goku turned into SSJ, Babidi said that Goku had a power of 3000 kilis.

Goku's SSJ transformation only got him from higher than 800 to 3000, so, even in Boo's Saga, it isn't a huge multiplier anymore.

Cell - 43,000,000
+ Humans - 45,000,000
+ Semi-Perfect - 87,000,000
+ Perfect - 129,000,000
Vegeta - 1,800,000
+ SSJ - 48,750,000
+ USSJ - 103,650,000

You have missed a detail: Vegeta, after training in the RoSaT, was already faster than form 2 Cell, even as a SSJ. Notice how he moved so fast that Cell 2 couldn't see him. He wouldn't be able to do that if he were weaker than Cell.

[Dayspring]

About the power of a SSJ transformation... In Boo Saga, Yakon's power was 800 kilis. Goku, in base, was easily beating him, but, after Goku turned into SSJ, Babidi said that Goku had a power of 3000 kilis.

Goku's SSJ transformation only got him from higher than 800 to 3000, so, even in Boo's Saga, it isn't a huge multiplier anymore.

Whoa! WHAT?! Was this fight amped up by filler or something, cuz in the manga Yakon was clearly dominating the non-SSJ fight. The ONLY hit Goku got in startled him, NOT hurt him, because they were on the dark planet and Yakon thought he'd be undetectable.

Cell - 43,000,000
+ Humans - 45,000,000
+ Semi-Perfect - 87,000,000
+ Perfect - 129,000,000
Vegeta - 1,800,000
+ SSJ - 48,750,000
+ USSJ - 103,650,000

You seem to have missed a detail: Vegeta SSJ was already faster than form 2 Cell, so, his PL as a SSJ was possibly already higher than Cell's.[/quote]
No again. Cell was just shocked to see Vegeta at all. Then Vegeta IMMEDIATELY went USSJ.

[James R. Cadwell]

You do rely on percentages way too much though. Look at how easily Vegeta killed Dodoria. Vegeta had a PL of 24,000 and Dodoria 22,000. That's 92% of Vegeta's strength! If it was always about percentages than this'd be nothing and Dodoria'd have a good chance at winning.

I don't really pay much attention to the scouter readings anymore. We don't know precisely how the scouters produce measurements or what influence physical strength, speed, etc have on the numbers.

Vegeta easily overwhelmed Dodoria: okay, so Vegeta must have been a few times physically stronger than him, even if their scouter readings were close.

[Neon Z]

Whoa! WHAT?! Was this fight amped up by filler or something, cuz in the manga Yakon was clearly dominating the non-SSJ fight. The ONLY hit Goku got in startled him, NOT hurt him, because they were on the dark planet and Yakon thought he'd be undetectable.

Oh... Ok. But, even so, Goku's power had to be somewhere around Yakon's. He wasn't truly hurt by any of his attacks.

No again. Cell was just shocked to see Vegeta at all. Then Vegeta IMMEDIATELY went USSJ.

Yes, I know that. But Cell was moving, and Vegeta appeared out of nowhere in front of him. To do that, he'd need to be faster than Cell, wouldn't he? Ok... maybe not...

[Xyex]

Kaioshin saw Gohan demonstrate the second level of Super Saiya-jin during the Tenkaichi Budokai. He didn't see anyone else exhibit that level of power until after he stopped rambling about Gohan's strength.

What about the fact Shin was raving about Gohan's power before he ever stepped into the ring? How did seeing Gohan's power when he transformed against Kibito let him 'know' Gohan was stronger BEFORE he saw it?

I don't really pay much attention to the scouter readings anymore. We don't know precisely how the scouters produce measurements or what influence physical strength, speed, etc have on the numbers.

Vegeta easily overwhelmed Dodoria: okay, so Vegeta must have been a few times physically stronger than him, even if their scouter readings were close.

No, we don't know exactly how their bassed but 9 chances out of 10 it's a point per point scale. Not a % scale, which is obviously how you see power.

Hell, I'm done. Powers in DBZ are never stable enough to debate things like this, as I've said before. I'll just leave one last parting comment. I don't care WHO the hell it is, no mortal could gain enough power naturally to be stronger than Piccolo without at least one transformation. HELL, Piccolo's only that strong thanks to 2 fusions. That is all. I am done. This is like talking to a brick wall anyway.

[James R. Cadwell]

What about the fact Shin was raving about Gohan's power before he ever stepped into the ring?

I recall Kaioshin commenting on Gohan's power before the SSJ2 transformation, but I don't remember him saying that Gohan was the strongest person present until afterwards. Was there an earlier incident that I'm forgetting?

No, we don't know exactly how their bassed but 9 chances out of 10 it's a point per point scale. Not a % scale, which is obviously how you see power.

No, it's definitely not a "point per point" scale. When Goku uses "Kaioken at x times his power" it multiplies linearly according to the Daizenshuu. When Freeza claims to be using half his strength, he's also using close to exactly half his Daizenshuu power level. Kuririn was also able to briefly fight Ginyu (in Goku's body) even though there was a difference of thousands between their power levels.

Power levels generally seem to be arranged on a linear scale or an inconsequentially non-linear scale. There are only a few anomalies -- Vegeta's fight with Dodoria, for example -- which could easily be caused by a fighter micro-managing his power for specific tasks. In any event, nobody knows enough about the PL scales to make them useful for evaluating power -- it's easier just to describe relative differences in strength.

Hell, I'm done. Powers in DBZ are never stable enough to debate things like this, as I've said before. I'll just leave one last parting comment. I don't care WHO the hell it is, no mortal could gain enough power naturally to be stronger than Piccolo without at least one transformation.

That strikes me as kind of an arbitrary dismissal. All of the evidence concerning the issue shows that Piccolo is nowhere close to the strength of the Saiya-jin in their normal forms. It's just that you won't acknowledge any of it because it doesn't fit your preconceptions.

[oponok]

Shin had already heard stories of Goku, so perhaps he heard tell of the Cell games, which would explain why he believed Gohan to be the strongest. He didn't witness Goku or Vegeta training in private.

It does seem rather crazy that Vegeta's base power level suddenly became so much stronger than Piccolo during the Cell games. After all, if he could gain so much power so quickly, it would seem he'd achieve SSJ3 quite easily before the Buu saga. He wasn't even training with amplified gravity in the Room of Spirit and Time. But then again, he is a Saiyan, which means he could train himself half to death every other day and simply recover his strength and become X times stronger. Recall the Namek saga, in which Vegeta's power rapidly increased from the mere 18,000 to the hundred thousands to millions after some brief scuffles and two beatings.

So sure, I guess Vegeta was stronger than Piccolo in his normal form. It's odd, but why the hell not?

[Neon Z]

. I don't care WHO the hell it is, no mortal could gain enough power naturally to be stronger than Piccolo without at least one transformation. HELL, Piccolo's only that strong thanks to 2 fusions. That is all. I am done. This is like talking to a brick wall anyway.

But Piccolo did get a lot of power only by training. In Namek, after fusing, he was weaker than base Vegeta after his last zenkai, but, during the android Saga, before fusing, Kuririn compared Piccolo's strenght to a Super Sayajin'.

Piccolo went from weaker than base Vegeta to near Super Sayajin Vegeta. Why can't Vegeta get a similar power increase? He went twice into the room of space and time, but Piccolo only trained there once.

[Dayspring]

Hell, I'm done. Powers in DBZ are never stable enough to debate things like this, as I've said before. I'll just leave one last parting comment. I don't care WHO the hell it is, no mortal could gain enough power naturally to be stronger than Piccolo without at least one transformation.

That strikes me as kind of an arbitrary dismissal. All of the evidence concerning the issue shows that Piccolo is nowhere close to the strength of the Saiya-jin in their normal forms. It's just that you won't acknowledge any of it because it doesn't fit your preconceptions.

Not really. It makes sense that Vegeta and/or Goku might surpass Piccolo under their intensive training sessions, since they had seven of intense training to try to catch up to Gohan's SSJ2. Piccolo's training isn't as 00ber inspired since he just wants to keep the peace. There's PLENTY of proof to show that Gohan CAN'T though, despite Babidi's claims. We KNOW non-SSJ Gohan is weaker than Piccolo in the Cell arc. Now add seven years of no training for him, but 7 years of constant training for Piccolo. It just doesn't add up.

[Spyderjsr]

Man this is making my head hurt.

Did anyone ever visit Planet Namek.com when it was up and running? That had some of the best power level reading estimates I think I have seen. I think it clocked piccolo at about 180 000 000 in the Buu Saga. I really dont have too much to add to this convo, my power level disputes have always been over The later saiyan/fusion levels.

I was always too angry that piccolo became a minor character fighting wise

[James R. Cadwell]

Not really. It makes sense that Vegeta and/or Goku might surpass Piccolo under their intensive training sessions, since they had seven of intense training to try to catch up to Gohan's SSJ2. Piccolo's training isn't as 00ber inspired since he just wants to keep the peace. There's PLENTY of proof to show that Gohan CAN'T though, despite Babidi's claims. We KNOW non-SSJ Gohan is weaker than Piccolo in the Cell arc.

That's not true. We're specifically told by Babidi and Darbura that non-SSJ Gohan is far more powerful than Piccolo. Gohan also makes an agreement with Vegeta not to use Super Saiya-jin at the Tenkaichi Budokai, even though his mother wanted him to place at the top with Goku.

Seriously -- nobody can come up with any evidence that even suggests that Piccolo is stronger than normal form Gohan. People just keep repeating that it's "impossible" and "makes no sense".

Now add seven years of no training for him, but 7 years of constant training for Piccolo. It just doesn't add up.

Non-SSJ Vegeta was already stronger than Piccolo at the Cell Games. Therefore, non-SSJ Gohan must have been even farther beyond Piccolo: apparently enough to prevent Piccolo from surpassing him over those seven years.

To restate the evidence once again:

- Vegeta surpasses Piccolo + Nail in his normal form during the Freeza Saga. It probably doesn't stay this way, but there's definitely a precedent.

- Non-SSJ Vegeta was able to smack Cell in the head with an energy blast, giving Gohan the opportunity to win. Piccolo was running away. Since Piccolo is not a coward, the only possible explanation is that Piccolo was so dwarfed by Cell's power that he was totally helpless. Therefore: Gohan, Goku, Trunks and Vegeta are more powerful than Piccolo in their normal forms.

- Gohan and Vegeta agree not to use their Super Saiya-jin forms at the Tenkaichi Budokai. Vegeta says he will still win the tournament. Gohan also wanted to place in the top two when he made that agreement. Therefore: Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta are more powerful than Piccolo in their normal forms.

- Babidi and Darbura say that only Gohan, Goku and Vegeta have great energy. Piccolo and Kuririn apparently have inconsequential powers, so Darbura eliminates them. Therefore: Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta are more powerful than Piccolo in their normal forms.

[Xyex]

That strikes me as kind of an arbitrary dismissal. All of the evidence concerning the issue shows that Piccolo is nowhere close to the strength of the Saiya-jin in their normal forms. It's just that you won't acknowledge any of it because it doesn't fit your preconceptions.

ME? You're the one who keeps repeating the same things over and over again even though it's already been explained. You're the one not acknowledging that the base form Saiya-jins are weaker than Piccolo because it dosen't fit your ideas.

[James R. Cadwell]

ME? You're the one who keeps repeating the same things over and over again even though it's already been explained.

What have you explained? You said that Babidi might be wrong (without any reasoning), which doesn't refute the other examples that were provided.

You're the one not acknowledging that the base form Saiya-jins are weaker than Piccolo because it dosen't fit your ideas.

Which of the following are "my ideas"...?

- Non-SSJ Vegeta can affect Perfect Cell. Piccolo cannot.

- Vegeta says he will win the Tenkaichi Budokai even if he only uses his normal form.

- Babidi and Darbura say the non-SSJ Saiya-jin are much stronger.

There is no evidence (that I'm aware of) indicating the opposite of my conclusion. Do you have any examples of quotes/scenes where Piccolo has been shown stronger than the non-SSJ Saiya-jin after the late Cell Saga?

[Dayspring]

But it is MORE than likely that Piccolo was still stronger than Gohan's base (in Cell saga) since the Room of S+T was training their SSJ stages. Just because Vegeta landed a crucial blow against Cell (IN SSJ!!!!) doesn't make non-SSJ Gohan weaker than Piccolo! Piccolo's attack on Cell was FILLER. Since his attacks weren't supposed to have any affect on Cell, as they aren't present in the manga, they were shown as useless. And where is YOUR evidence that Vegeta is completely stronger than Piccolo (in non-SSJ) here, AND that non-SSJ Gohan completely surpasses Vegeta? It's his SSJ and SSJ2 stage that surpasses Vegeta. For all we know Vegeta's still stronger than SSJ Gohan in the Cell Games. He was just amazed at how strong he became.

And YES, we do give you evidence, but whenever we do you call it arbitrary statements since it doesn't match what your beliefs are. It IS like talking to a brick wall!

We're specifically told by Babidi and Darbura that non-SSJ Gohan is far more powerful than Piccolo.

Yes! We're also told by Krillin that USSJ2 Trunks is 00ber stronger than USSJ Vegeta. So maybe, like Krillin, OMG IT'S POSSIBLE that they just sensed some of his HIDDEN (ie: SSJ) strength. If you bring up how shocked they were I'll slap you, because Krillin shit his pants when Trunks went USSJ2. Why would he do that if he already knew Trunks could become stronger? Simple: He, like Babidi and Dabura, didn't sense by HOW MUCH they could increase their PLs by.

Vegeta surpasses Piccolo + Nail in his normal form during the Freeza Saga.

So what?! Piccolo+Kami was stronger than SSJ everybody before they entered the room of S+T.

Non-SSJ Vegeta was able to smack Cell in the head with an energy blast, giving Gohan the opportunity to win. Piccolo was running away. Since Piccolo is not a coward, the only possible explanation is that Piccolo was so dwarfed by Cell's power that he was totally helpless. Therefore: Gohan, Goku, Trunks and Vegeta are more powerful than Piccolo in their normal forms.

All this prooves is that Vegeta's still pissed over Trunks' death to not care about the consequences. Vegeta didn't even hurt Cell: he just distracted him. MANGA OR ANIME.

Even if you were right: how does it proove that non-SSJ Goku, Gohan and Trunks are stronger than Piccolo?

Gohan and Vegeta agree not to use their Super Saiya-jin forms at the Tenkaichi Budokai. Vegeta says he will still win the tournament. Gohan also wanted to place in the top two when he made that agreement. Therefore: Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta are more powerful than Piccolo in their normal forms.

So?! This doesn't proove that Gohan's stronger. It just means that he wants to come in second. #18 wanted to come in first. Doesn't mean she's stronger than Vegeta. It just means that Vegeta, at this point, feels he's the strongest in non-SSJ.

Seriously -- nobody can come up with any evidence that even suggests that Piccolo is stronger than normal form Gohan. People just keep repeating that it's "impossible" and "makes no sense".

After seven years of not training at all, and seven years of training for Piccolo, there's NO chance whatsoever that Piccolo could catch up to Gohan's baseform? Please! You're just refusing the possibility since I can't give you a direct quote. Aren't YOU the one that argues you can't always rely on quotes because they sometimes are arbitrary statements by the characters?

[James R. Cadwell]

But it is MORE than likely that Piccolo was still stronger than Gohan's base (in Cell saga) since the Room of S+T was training their SSJ stages.

Nope. It's not likely at all, since we're told in the Buu Saga that non-SSJ Gohan is still much stronger than Piccolo. Evidence is superior to assumptions.

Just because Vegeta landed a crucial blow against Cell (IN SSJ!!!!) doesn't make non-SSJ Gohan weaker than Piccolo!

Vegeta wasn't Super Saiya-jin when he struck Cell with that energy blast. Examine the scene again.

Piccolo's attack on Cell was FILLER. Since his attacks weren't supposed to have any affect on Cell, as they aren't present in the manga, they were shown as useless.

Nobody except you has mentioned the filler scenes. In the manga, Piccolo tries to run from the struggle and gets blown away by the energy. He never helps Gohan because he can't. Vegeta could.

And where is YOUR evidence that Vegeta is completely stronger than Piccolo (in non-SSJ) here, AND that non-SSJ Gohan completely surpasses Vegeta?

How many times do I have to repeat this? Babidi and Darbura say that only non-SSJ Gohan, Goku and Vegeta have impressive energy.

And YES, we do give you evidence, but whenever we do you call it arbitrary statements since it doesn't match what your beliefs are. It IS like talking to a brick wall!

Okay, show me the evidence. Don't make another long opinion post -- just provide a quote, scene reference, anything that contradicts my conclusion. My belief is that the evidence from the manga is correct -- what is yours?

Yes! We're also told by Krillin that USSJ2 Trunks is 00ber stronger than USSJ Vegeta.

Which is true.

So maybe, like Krillin, OMG IT'S POSSIBLE that they just sensed some of his HIDDEN (ie: SSJ) strength.

IIRC, Kuririn only said that Trunks was holding back. Can you provide a specific quote?

If you bring up how shocked they were I'll slap you, because Krillin shit his pants when Trunks went USSJ2. Why would he do that if he already knew Trunks could become stronger? Simple: He, like Babidi and Dabura, didn't sense by HOW MUCH they could increase their PLs by.[/

- If Babidi and Darbura could sense some of Goku, Gohan and Vegeta's SSJ power in their normal forms, it was only a small amount -- as you said, they were both shocked when Goku actually transformed.

- Babidi and Darbura made it clear that there was no comparison between the three Saiya-jin and Piccolo. So using your argument, normal Gohan + a small fraction of his SSJ power is way beyond Piccolo. This doesn't tell us that Piccolo is stronger.

- Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo, and he felt it would be necessary to gang-up against an opponent Vegeta killed effortlessly in his normal form.

- Your line of reasoning isn't parsimonious and unnecessarily complicates events. We're not told or shown that Babidi or Darbura can sense SSJ power when characters are using their normal forms, so there's no reason to assume they can.

So what?! Piccolo+Kami was stronger than SSJ everybody before they entered the room of S+T.

Uh, and...? Of course Piccolo was stronger than Vegeta before Vegeta surpassed him.

All this prooves is that Vegeta's still pissed over Trunks' death to not care about the consequences. Vegeta didn't even hurt Cell: he just distracted him. MANGA OR ANIME.

Yes, the energy blast distracts Cell and pushes his head slightly to the side. Piccolo couldn't even approach the battle.

Even if you were right: how does it proove that non-SSJ Goku, Gohan and Trunks are stronger than Piccolo?

The SSJ transformation appears to be multiplicative. SSJ Goku and Gohan were stronger than SSJ Vegeta, and SSJ Trunks wasn't far behind his father. It stands to reason that the relative differences in power are similar in their normal forms.

So?! This doesn't proove that Gohan's stronger. It just means that he wants to come in second.

Gohan was told by his mother to place at the top with Goku. Gohan then makes an agreement with Vegeta not to use SSJ during the tournament. Therefore: Gohan still thought he could at least place in the top two, and Vegeta thought he would win. Nobody pays any attention to #18 and Piccolo.

After seven years of not training at all, and seven years of training for Piccolo, there's NO chance whatsoever that Piccolo could catch up to Gohan's baseform? Please!

Who cares about the chances? We're specifically told that non-SSJ Gohan is much stronger than Piccolo.

You're just refusing the possibility since I can't give you a direct quote. Aren't YOU the one that argues you can't always rely on quotes because they sometimes are arbitrary statements by the characters?

1: I have no problem with quotes that are direct observations.

2: There's absolutely nothing to contradict the conclusion that Piccolo is weaker than the base form Saiya-jin. We're never shown that he's stronger after the middle of the Cell Saga. So the situation is basically:

- Lots of evidence showing that Piccolo is weaker.

- No evidence showing that he's stronger.

If you don't reach the conclusion that Piccolo is weaker, then your opposition to my argument is obviously only based on opinion.

[Dayspring]

FUCK!!!! "SSJ appears to be multiplicative" Why can YOU make assumptions, backed by NO supporting statements (let alone your precious OGM EDIVANCE!~~~111), when we can't?! YOU were the one that bitched at me in other threads whenever I tried to figure out by how much SSJ levels multiply.

Vegeta SAID that he maxed out his non-SSJ form in the 3 years before the androids came. That, coupled with his statement in the Boo saga that in non-SSJ he's the strongest, would prove that SSJ is NOT multiplicative. How could Vegeta in non-SSJ be the strongest but not be when in SSJ? If it's only about multiplying your base PL, why did Goku+Gohan stay in SSJ for their battles against Cell? And where would USSJ fit in in all this?

Concerning the Piccolo filler: I'm not making it up! You said yourself you read the manga! Any Piccolo+Humans attacking Cell to help out Gohan there? No! AND you chose to ignore the rest of my argument concerning why Vegeta stayed. So like Xyex said: you're closed minded to everything if it differs from your POV.

[James R. Cadwell]

FUCK!!!! "SSJ appears to be multiplicative" Why can YOU make assumptions, backed by NO supporting statements (let alone your precious OGM EDIVANCE!~~~111), when we can't?! YOU were the one that bitched at me in other threads whenever I tried to figure out by how much SSJ levels multiply.

Why wouldn't the transformation be multiplicative? Their SSJ states appear to increase in power along with their base forms. There's obviously more than a casual relationship between them. The transformation is also clearly greater than a 20x increase regardless of how much training is done in the normal form -- otherwise Goku would just use Kaioken.

Vegeta SAID that he maxed out his non-SSJ form in the 3 years before the androids came.

But his non-SSJ form continued to become stronger after that point, so that's not correct. Are you confusing a colloquial statement with a literal one?

That, coupled with his statement in the Boo saga that in non-SSJ he's the strongest, would prove that SSJ is NOT multiplicative. How could Vegeta in non-SSJ be the strongest but not be when in SSJ?

When did Vegeta say that he was stronger than Goku in his normal form?

If it's only about multiplying your base PL, why did Goku+Gohan stay in SSJ for their battles against Cell?

To accustom themselves to the strain on their bodies? Just because the SSJ transformation is multiplicative doesn't mean that it isn't strenuous -- look at the decidedly multiplicative and strenuous Kaioken technique.

And where would USSJ fit in in all this?

How would it be unexplainable in a multiplicative system?

Concerning the Piccolo filler: I'm not making it up! You said yourself you read the manga! Any Piccolo+Humans attacking Cell to help out Gohan there?

No. Which is why I never mentioned it as part of my argument. I'm not entirely sure why you keep bringing this up.

No! AND you chose to ignore the rest of my argument concerning why Vegeta stayed.

1: I believe you said that Vegeta stayed behind because he didn't care about the consequences. That's a nice explanation, and I'm sure you noticed how Vegeta was actually able to remain behind. Piccolo got blown away.

2: If Cell won the struggle with Gohan, he would have finished everyone else afterwards. The consequences of intervening couldn't have been weighing too heavily on Piccolo's mind -- he could either run away and die or try to help and possibly give Gohan the chance to win. Since he didn't choose the latter, he was either:

(a): A moron who didn't care about Gohan, his own life, or even the planet.

(b): Unable to help in any way.

So like Xyex said: you're closed minded to everything if it differs from your POV.

I'm not really closed-minded about this particular topic. I'd be more than willing to concede if someone produced compelling evidence that Piccolo was stronger. It's just that nobody has offered anything besides unnecessarily complex theories to attempt to explain away the evidence, and opinions like "there's no way Piccolo could be weaker, so the evidence must be wrong". Once again:

- At least four examples showing that Piccolo is weaker than the base form Saiya-jin.

- No evidence showing he is stronger.

If I seem like a bit of a brick wall, it's because I keep referring people back to the evidence from the series, since none of it has been refuted.

[Xyex]

These are all in the order that struck me to respond to...

Yes, the energy blast distracts Cell and pushes his head slightly to the side. Piccolo couldn't even approach the battle.

Alright, show me the pannel in the MANGA with Cell's head moving. Can you? Nope, didn't think so. So then, how do you know it moved?

How many times do I have to repeat this? Babidi and Darbura say that only non-SSJ Gohan, Goku and Vegeta have impressive energy.

They state that they've sensed 3 impressive powers, yes. But as has been said before it's highly possible they sensed the three Saiya-jins at base and half or more of their SSJ powers. They're are any number of possible reasons to this that have nothing to do with the Saiya-jins being stronger than Piccolo.

- Your line of reasoning isn't parsimonious and unnecessarily complicates events. We're not told or shown that Babidi or Darbura can sense SSJ power when characters are using their normal forms, so there's no reason to assume they can.

So then, we aren't assuming Babidi and Dabura can sense hidden energy because it's not directly stated or shown yet we're ignoring that it's not directly stated or shown that Piccolo's weaker than the base Saiya-jins and just taking that as fact? Um... okay.... you should enter politics I think you'd do good.......

If you don't reach the conclusion that Piccolo is weaker, then your opposition to my argument is obviously only based on opinion.

It's offical ladies and gentlemen! He's out of responses he's not used 5 times already! So now we see the truth. It's your way or nothing. Your right and no one else is. That's exactly what you just said.

Vegeta wasn't Super Saiya-jin when he struck Cell with that energy blast. Examine the scene again.

Can you be absolutely certain of that? Did the Manga show Vegeta shooting the blast? I know it showed him afterward but that's no clear indication, hell it wouldn't be the first time Toriyama-sama goofed on something like that. I do believe their have been pannels before, numerous ones at that, that have left out details. For all you know Vegeta WAS SSJ when he shot the blast, he just no longer had the power to sustain it afterward.

Shin Kikoho generates far more energy than Tenshinhan is capable of producing without using the technique. So yes, Shin Kikoho was more powerful than Piccolo.

This is something else I just noticed while re-reading this little debate. You'll accept that Tien can fire an attack much more powerful than he is (this here's the actual reason I posted that bit about Tien, I just forgot it until now) yet apparently Vegeta can't do the same? Oh, wait, he can. His Galick Gun against Goku was charged. So then, who says his blast at Cell wasn't?

Nope. It's not likely at all, since we're told in the Buu Saga that non-SSJ Gohan is still much stronger than Piccolo. Evidence is superior to assumptions.

Show me this. Show the direct evidence. No assumptions made by the characters either since you've said evidence is supierior to assumptions. And so far all you've given is assumptions stated by characters who couldn't be certain about anything. There's no reason to believe that Babidi and Dabura were any more right about the Sayia-jins than Shin, and 99% if Shin's assumptions of strength were way off anyway.

[oponok]

**This discussion should win some kind of special merit award for being the only one to ever stay on topic for so long.***

Can you be absolutely certain of that? Did the Manga show Vegeta shooting the blast? I know it showed him afterward but that's no clear indication, hell it wouldn't be the first time Toriyama-sama goofed on something like that. I do believe their have been pannels before, numerous ones at that, that have left out details. For all you know Vegeta WAS SSJ when he shot the blast, he just no longer had the power to sustain it afterward.

Frankly, this is the best argument anyone has made, yet. I myself was thinking of this. In the end, however, we don't know and never will, but we just have to assume from the panel that he did it as a non-SSJ. We can make up our own theories, but the panel shows Vegeta in non-SSJ form.

It could be assumed that Gohan surpasses Piccolo (and everyone else) in his normal state in the Cell era when he attains SSJ2. All the other times he got pissed off, his power in his normal state increased, so why not this time?

I'm thinking the main argument here is that Vegeta COULD approach the battle while Piccolo was blown away, not really regarding the blast, so much. Remember that Vegeta was just backfisted half to death by Cell, yet he was still able to remain to help Gohan.

As for the Buu era...

If Babidi and Dabura sensed half of Vegeta, Gohan, and Goku's SSJ powers, why then couldn't they sense more of Piccolo's? There is NOTHING to suggest that Piccolo is more skilled at hiding his power, mind you. Also, Vegeta figures that if no SSJ forms are used, he has the tournament won. I assume he knows Piccolo's strength and understands how much he could have increased his power in the last seven years. He isn't an idiot. Also, Shin probably thinks that Gohan is the strongest because he HEARD about the Cell games. He didn't really understand the true extent of any of the Saiyans' powers, but remember he did know about them all from hearsay. He also didn't follow around Goku or Vegeta while they were training, so he probably wouldn't have known whether or not they've surpassed Gohan.

However, no one really has provided any real evidence AGAINST Vegeta, Gohan, or Goku being stronger than Piccolo in their base forms in the Buu saga. All we've seen are theoretical denials of Vegeta and Dabura/Babidi's statements. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I just haven't seen a true contradicting piece of evidence against what's been mentioned in favor of this seemingly unwelcomed opinion. I'm a little skeptic about the Cell era, but it seems very true that the base Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo by the time Buu shows up.

Relax, people: if you're frustrated, either provide examples or don't bother posting if you really think someone's just being a schmuck. No one's challenging your worth as a human being here; someone just posted a question is all. If you think someone's being pig-headed, why bother?

We want to keep this a loving, nurturing environment for Dragonball discussion.

I for one think Piccolo does get shafted in the Buu era. Also, his fellow Namekians were all savagely wiped out and then forced to live on a new planet, their old homeland destroyed by the arrival of greedy foreigners. This is why I think this site should host "Namekian History Month" every February, to honor the green ones.

[Xyex]

It could be assumed that Gohan surpasses Piccolo (and everyone else) in his normal state in the Cell era when he attains SSJ2. All the other times he got pissed off, his power in his normal state increased, so why not this time?

Because this time was different. Every other time he unlocked his powers it merely raised his strength for a few moments, and only while angry, then it would go away again. This time it fuled his tranformation into SSJ2, it didn't temporarily raise his power. And gaining a new transformation dosen't power up a person's base form.

I'm thinking the main argument here is that Vegeta COULD approach the battle while Piccolo was blown away, not really regarding the blast, so much. Remember that Vegeta was just backfisted half to death by Cell, yet he was still able to remain to help Gohan.

Vegeta came up from behind Cell, the others were off to the side of the combating Kamehameha waves. He was also fairly high in the air and back from Cell too. The backwash could easily be lessened where he is compared to the others. And then there's the most likely explanation. Toriyama-sama merely wanted Vegeta do that, character development and all. He did tend to ignore things now and then just to do what he wanted.

As for the Buu era...

If Babidi and Dabura sensed half of Vegeta, Gohan, and Goku's SSJ powers, why then couldn't they sense more of Piccolo's? There is NOTHING to suggest that Piccolo is more skilled at hiding his power, mind you. Also, Vegeta figures that if no SSJ forms are used, he has the tournament won. I assume he knows Piccolo's strength and understands how much he could have increased his power in the last seven years. He isn't an idiot. Also, Shin probably thinks that Gohan is the strongest because he HEARD about the Cell games. He didn't really understand the true extent of any of the Saiyans' powers, but remember he did know about them all from hearsay. He also didn't follow around Goku or Vegeta while they were training, so he probably wouldn't have known whether or not they've surpassed Gohan.

Transformations. It's posible that what Babidi and Dabura could feel were the lowered base powers of the Saiya-jin's + the full of their SSJ powers. (What I mean is what their power as SSJ's would be if their lowered base PL was their actual full power.) Where as Piccolo has no tranformations they would only sense his lowered power. This is just one of dozens of explantions.

However, no one really has provided any real evidence AGAINST Vegeta, Gohan, or Goku being stronger than Piccolo in their base forms in the Buu saga. All we've seen are theoretical denials of Vegeta and Dabura/Babidi's statements. I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I just haven't seen a true contradicting piece of evidence against what's been mentioned in favor of this seemingly unwelcomed opinion. I'm a little skeptic about the Cell era, but it seems very true that the base Saiyans are stronger than Piccolo by the time Buu shows up.

No one's really provided any real evidence FOR the Saiya-jins having PL's beyond that of Piccolo while in their base forms. The only thing that even remotely works in favor of that is the Vegeta blast against Cell but that's nothing definitave. James even pointed out Krillin and Gohan handling Ginyu while he was in Goku's body. There are numerous times when people considerably weaker than the other person has done some damage, or at least been an annoyance.

Which is all Vegeta was. He surprised Cell. The others weren't coming to attack him and he'd already come close to killing Vegeta, therefore he didn't expect the Saiya-jin Prince to launch any kind of attack against him. The entire reason it worked was the surprise factor.

Why are Dayspring and I the only ones that can see what the evidence shows?