Gohan vs Super Buu after absorbing Gotenks

[Victator Supreme]

Stop it, you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Stop trying to change the subject, I humbly requested proof that Akira Toriyama stated he wanted Gohan to destroy Buu. I am still requesting said proof.

I do not consider Dragonball to be a Super Hero story, becasue no one is hiding a secret identity, and trying to blend in with regular people.

The only interview I saw where he mentioned Gohan and Super Buu, he said he did the absorption because he liked to throw readers for a loop. So they never knew what to expect.

[Xyex]

Stop it, you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Stop trying to change the subject, I humbly requested proof that Akira Toriyama stated he wanted Gohan to destroy Buu. I am still requesting said proof.

I do not consider Dragonball to be a Super Hero story, becasue no one is hiding a secret identity, and trying to blend in with regular people.

Just because it doesn't have everything you attribute to a Super Hero story doesn't mean it's not a Super Hero story. And how can you say they're not hiding their identities or trying to blend in? Is Goku world famous for taking out the RRA or Piccolo or saving the Earth a multitude of times? Are Krillin, Yamcha, Chaotzu, and Tien known as the world's strongest humans by the entire population of Earth? Just because they don't go running around in glasses during their day-to-day lives or wear spandex when fighting evil doesn't mean they're not hiding who/what they are or that they're not Super Heroes.

As for the proof you want I don't have it nor do I know where it could easily be found. I'm just going from my memory of what I've read. And my memory says there was an interview where he'd talked about wanting Gohan to be the hero, and intending him to be such, but everyone wanted Goku so he "had" to bring him back. (Had as in he didn't really have too but he did it because it'd please the fans.) If I could remember what the interview was in or where to find it I'd direct you to it. But I don't tend to keep track of such things.

[FindKenshi]

The only interview I saw where he mentioned Gohan and Super Buu, he said he did the absorption because he liked to throw readers for a loop. So they never knew what to expect.

And this is what I much more suspect to be true of the situation at hand. I'd like to see that interview too.

As for the proof you want I don't have it nor do I know where it could easily be found.

Yes, you don't have it, or know where to find it, for a very simple reason. It does not exist! This, I have been telling people for a very, very long time now. I don't know why people continue to blindly insist that Toriyama said these things.

I'm just going from my memory of what I've read.

I'm sure you are--because it’s the memory of being told this by various fanboys on the Internet, probably since the early 90s. And we all know, as members of this fan community, that making such claims does not shy away from "of course it's true, Toriyama said so in an interview." Why people don't question things, and ask "Where is said interview?" is the part I don't understand. Is it some situation where you want it to be true, and thusly place blind faith in it?

If I could remember what the interview was in or where to find it I'd direct you to it. But I don't tend to keep track of such things.

Again, if I'm wrong here, I will proudly eat my hat, and shamble off in shame. But I am certain I'm not wrong. This interview does not exist. I have been over this with many, many people, on many different boards, and never once... not even once, has anyone been able to produce proof of this wild claim.

I'll be blunt. I feel this is the stuff of Gohan fanboys. It's completely unfounded, and my gut tells me that it's also completely untrue. If Toriyama intended for Gohan to destroy Buu, I'm certain Gohan would have got to that point in some other way then getting "pwnt" and spending half the story sitting down, with his legs crossed, while a silly old man danced around him. It is "build up" like this, that implies comical failure is not far off.

And I'm not trying to come off as hostile here... it's just the way people who make this claim, so do matter-of-factly, as if this is some common sense knowledge that all Dragonball fans should just know, and accept as true, and never question. Yes, I've known about these claims since the 90s. I didn't believe it back then, and I still don't now.

[Duo]

To this day, I have no idea why people seem to think being punched by someone many times stronger than you, would make you explode (in the realm of Dragonball).

Cell Jrs and Movie 12.

Indeed, so why do people take 2 examples and apply it universally where we have many examples of this -not- being the case?

Though, the Jr's didn't fully explode. Just the parts of them that were hit.

[Freeza93]

The only interview I saw where he mentioned Gohan and Super Buu, he said he did the absorption because he liked to throw readers for a loop. So they never knew what to expect.

lots of stuff...

And I'm not trying to come off as hostile here... it's just the way people who make this claim, so do matter-of-factly, as if this is some common sense knowledge that all Dragonball fans should just know, and accept as true, and never question. Yes, I've known about these claims since the 90s. I didn't believe it back then, and I still don't now.

Wasn't this stuff about Toriyama said on one the podcasts?

[Rocketman]

Indeed, so why do people take 2 examples and apply it universally where we have many examples of this -not- being the case?

Because the two times they did explode stand out much more than all the times they didn't.

[Xyex]

Yes, you don't have it, or know where to find it, for a very simple reason. It does not exist!

You know, that always annoys me. "Of course you can't show me where you saw it, you never saw it!" It's not like I catalogue every bit of information or every interview I've ever seen. I couldn't even tell you where to find the interview where Toriayama discusses Gotenks and Fusion because I simply Do. Not. Know. And if you dobut that one exists simply because I don't know where to find it then.....

This, I have been telling people for a very, very long time now. I don't know why people continue to blindly insist that Toriyama said these things.

Perhaps because they're not 'blindly' insisting it? I don't know about you but I don't take the word of someone else I don't know is reliable until I have some sort of proof. I admit, I can't say for absolute fact that the interview I saw was real (there's enough fake ones out there to make a magazine with) but I did see it, thank-you.

I'm sure you are--because it’s the memory of being told this by various fanboys on the Internet, probably since the early 90s.

*Points up*

Why people don't question things, and ask "Where is said interview?" is the part I don't understand.

Asked, saw, didn't bother saving it to show you two plus years later. (And refer again to the above as well.)

I feel this is the stuff of Gohan fanboys.

WTF?

Oi.

It's not like it's without precendent. Considerable precedent. The entire damned Android Saga is full of changes because of his editors. (Including, you know, the fact it even exists at all.) Plus, you know, Gohan saved the day there. And Toriyama tried every thing he could to 'retire' Goku. Including replacing him with a 'new Goku' in the form of Goten. Even without the interview in front of your face that's pretty strong evidence toward Toriyama wanting Gohan to take his father's place.

And I can't shake the feeling that your insistance that it's not true because you've not seen any proof stems entirely from the fact you don't want it to be true because you don't like it. You go on about us blindly believing it because we're 'Gohan fanboys' but your entire rant against it screams of being bassed entirely on your own dislike of the idea.

Like I've said before. With or without the interview there's plenty of evidence with-in the pages of the manga (including the Saiyaman saga itself, which sets Gohan up as the new main character) to stand in support of the idea.

[FindKenshi]

And I can't shake the feeling that your insistance that it's not true because you've not seen any proof stems entirely from the fact you don't want it to be true because you don't like it. You go on about us blindly believing it because we're 'Gohan fanboys' but your entire rant against it screams of being bassed entirely on your own dislike of the idea.

Oh, please... I can say the exact same about you guys (you guys being, those who claim Gohan was supposed to be the one to kill Buu all along). You want to believe that Gohan was meant to do it, because you dislike the idea of Goku killing the villain, once again. So you go on your blind belief that "Goku fanboys" forced Akira Toriyama to do this--I've even seen assinine claims such as "He got death threats, and did so out of fear." Such claims go hand in hand with this "theory", quite freaking often.

For your information, though, my instance is indeed because I've never seen this proof. And I've been talking about DBZ at least since the mid nineties, and never, ever seen a shred of proof.

Like I've said before. With or without the interview there's plenty of evidence with-in the pages of the manga (including the Saiyaman saga itself, which sets Gohan up as the new main character) to stand in support of the idea.

No, there isn't plenty of in-page evidence. So, this is all? I expected more from the boards that claim to be "the most authoritative." I'm not one of the unwashed masses that is happy to accept some bogus claim without seeing proof. If the interview truly exists, I damn well want to see it. It should not be impossible. This is the Internet Age. I'm sure, if this thing is real, SOMEONE can show me a scan or at least give me a reference.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

For your information, though, my instance is indeed because I've never seen this proof. And I've been talking about DBZ at least since the mid nineties, and never, ever seen a shred of proof.

Hiya, Kenshi. I See you're going off on people as usual. Anyway; an easy way to clear this up, is to ask EX. He knows everything you need to know. If he doesn't know, no one does, unfortunately.

[Xyex]

Oh, please... I can say the exact same about you guys (you guys being, those who claim Gohan was supposed to be the one to kill Buu all along). You want to believe that Gohan was meant to do it, because you dislike the idea of Goku killing the villain, once again. So you go on your blind belief that "Goku fanboys" forced Akira Toriyama to do this--I've even seen assinine claims such as "He got death threats, and did so out of fear." Such claims go hand in hand with this "theory", quite freaking often.

I've never seen that claim (which is definitely laughable). I've only ever seen normal arguements for it. But perhaps because I don't frequent the DBZ boards on Gamefaqs and generally steer clear of places where idiots breed en masse.

And while I don't speak for everyone, of cousre, I know that my belief that Gohan was to take out Buu isn't from being a Gohan fanboy but from the pages of the manga. Gohan being established as Goku's replacement at the Cell Games. Gohan being established as the main character through the Saiyaman arc. Gohan being refrenced as the one to beat Buu right from the beginning. Toriayama's mentions (even just in relation to the Androids/Cell arcs) of wanting to make Gohan the hero. Goku's insistance on someone other than him defeating Buu. And the rather convoluted and confusing means through which it finally became Goku to beat Buu.

If the reason I believed someone was to be the one to beat Buu was because I was their 'fanboy' I'd either be claiming that 18 was to beat Buu or that Future Trunks was to come back and do it or Piccolo was meant to. I like Gohan, but all three of them rate higher. And I really don't have any issues with Goku beating him. In fact, I love the ending to the battle we got, with the Spirit Bomb and Hercule coming to the rescue once again.

[SonEric84]

If the reason I believed someone was to be the one to beat Buu was because I was their 'fanboy' I'd either be claiming that 18 was to beat Buu or that Future Trunks was to come back and do it or Piccolo was meant to. I like Gohan, but all three of them rate higher. And I really don't have any issues with Goku beating him. In fact, I love the ending to the battle we got, with the Spirit Bomb and Mr. Satan coming to the rescue once again.

Now there's something I'd like to see! I've heard of these interviews and I might have even read one online years ago, but whether it's actually real or not I couldn't say. Hopefully, someone will come through with some kind of evidence either way and set this straight. Real or not though, it does appear that Gohan was slowly replacing Goku.

[Kendamu]

Because Gohan was supposed to kick Buu's ass but Toriyama was made to change it (due to editor and fan demand)

Well, you can't win 'em all. No matter where I go, people will always claim this--and no matter who does the claiming, they will never back it up. Please, just give me one little interview snippet, something, anything that proves this is true.

For all we KNOW for FACT, Toriyama himself shifted the focus away from Gohan, because lets face it--the Great Saiyaman arc was not exactly the pinnacle of good storytelling. It was bland and uninteresting. Toriyama rocks as a manga writer, but not so much a Super Hero writer.

Even less so as a Romance writer... which he himself has admitted in at least one interview that I read. (It was posted right here in these forums)

I stick to the "Toriyama intended Gohan to be the hero originally" statement. However, I have no way to back it up at the moment. Just vague memories of something I read.

Still, though, even if I can't back my thoughts up, please take the time to back your thoughts up even if "we KNOW for FACT" that it's true when it comes to stuff like this. It seems odd to not do so right after asking other people to do it.

Oh, and I liked the manga version of the Saiyaman stuff. Snoogans.

[FindKenshi]

Still, though, even if I can't back my thoughts up, please take the time to back your thoughts up

What do I need to back up? We've all read how it goes in the manga. I'm not the one claiming that Akira Toriyama was being forced to do something against his will. The burden of proof isn't on me.

I still want to see this interview if it exists.
(Although I already know it doesn't.)

[Xyex]

What do I need to back up?

I think he was saying you need to back up:

For all we KNOW for FACT, Toriyama himself shifted the focus away from Gohan, because lets face it--the Great Saiyaman arc was not exactly the pinnacle of good storytelling. It was bland and uninteresting.

Because there's no fact in that, at all. The Saiyaman arc was blast. You didn't like it, but that doesn't mean it was bad, bland, or uninteresting. I enjoyed it, Kendamu apparently enjoyed it, and others did as well. And I've seen people cite it as one of their favorite parts.

[testing223]

You know, it would be sort of stupid for Toriyama to build up Gohan with Saiyaman, relationship with Videl, Kai Powerup, beat the hell out of the main villain...and then get eaten.

[FindKenshi]

What do I need to back up?

I think he was saying you need to back up:

For all we KNOW for FACT, Toriyama himself shifted the focus away from Gohan, because lets face it--the Great Saiyaman arc was not exactly the pinnacle of good storytelling. It was bland and uninteresting.

Because there's no fact in that, at all. The Saiyaman arc was blast. You didn't like it, but that doesn't mean it was bad, bland, or uninteresting. I enjoyed it, Kendamu apparently enjoyed it, and others did as well. And I've seen people cite it as one of their favorite parts.

Hence why I said "For all we KNOW". As in, the situation I just presented is JUST AS possible as the one he presented. Not any more so, nor any less so. That's kind of what "for all we know" really means. For all we know, this could be possible. Or that. Or that. Etc. Etc.

Anyway... still patiently waiting for the interview.

[caejones]

You know, it would be sort of stupid for Toriyama to build up Gohan with Saiyaman, relationship with Videl, Kai Powerup, beat the hell out of the main villain...and then get eaten.

Though I think Gohan got shortchanged... Toriyama has been known to pull unexpected plottwists out of thin air that work vaguely well. It's entirely possible that he decided to change the direction there for that. *shrug*

[FindKenshi]

You know, it would be sort of stupid for Toriyama to build up Gohan with Saiyaman

...riiight, Gohan wearing a goofy outfit, that even other in-universe characters made fun of, and be established as a weakling who had slacked on his training, and almost got bested by his 7 year old brother is a "build up"..

relationship with Videl

Two, maybe three pages at the most, covering this...

Kai Powerup,

He sat around on his butt for hours, while a silly old man danced around him. This kind of "Build up" screams "epic failure in near future." And guess what, he sits around stuttering and stammering while Buu absorbs his brother and mentor, and then fails to catch a darn earing. There is your epic failure, for you.

beat the hell out of the main villain...and then get eaten.

More like got outsmarted by the main villain, because he was too arrogant and foolish. But, then, Gohan has a track record of folding against opponetns who were much weaker then he was. Just look at what happened with Cell. He was far, far beyond Cell, but his own stupidity, incompetence, and arrogance led to his own father dieing, and Cell getting powered up and nearly beating him.

All Gohan could do is cry like a little baby, and pound the ground, as Cell prepared to self destruct. He failed. Again, in an epic way.

Gohan = Epic Failure.

Nappa, he cried, hid, was called coward by Piccolo.
Recoome, he tried, and failed, got his neck broken. His neck broken.
Freeza, he tried, and failed, got stepped on. You understand me?
Freeza stepped on his head. AND threw his full power blast back at him!

What has Gohan ever done that has not ended in Epic Failure. Thanks to the horror that is Dragonball GT, we can even say that having Pan ended in Epic Failure. His own daughter became one of the most annoying and useless characters in anime history.

[Victator Supreme]

He was the one who killed Cell in the end. If he not for him Cell would have definately destroyed the planet (not to mention the rest of the universe.) Not to mention there are various times he saved one of his friends life in battle.

Also he was not almost beaten by Goten. Thats just a ridiculous statement to take. He was briefly caught off guard by how advanced Goten was. They then had a brief sparring session which had to be called off to teach him to fly.

Nappa, he cried, hid, was called coward by Piccolo.
Recoome, he tried, and failed, got his neck broken. His neck broken.
Freeza, he tried, and failed, got stepped on. You understand me?
Freeza stepped on his head. AND threw his full power blast back at him!

All these examples can be dismissed with "HE WAS FIVE YEARS OLD." Not to mention he stood up to Recoome knowing he could not win. But was desperate to bring his friends back. He managed to actually hurt Nappa in an attempt to avenge Piccolo.

Thats heroic and its a central part of the Dragonball story. Trying to keep a scorecard of wins and losses misses the whole damn point.

[Xyex]

Hence why I said "For all we KNOW".

No. What you said was "For all we KNOW for FACT". That "FACT" changes the statement, it makes it a declaration, not an assumption. You stated that it is fact that:

Toriyama himself shifted the focus away from Gohan, because lets face it--the Great Saiyaman arc was not exactly the pinnacle of good storytelling. It was bland and uninteresting.

Which it is not. That is your opinnion and far from fact.

...riiight, Gohan wearing a goofy outfit, that even other in-universe characters made fun of, and be established as a weakling who had slacked on his training, and almost got bested by his 7 year old brother is a "build up"..

Your dislike of the arc does not change the fact it was build-up. It established Gohan as the main character. As was mentioned elsewhere Gohan wasn't almost bested by Goten. Goten just shocked the hell out of Gohan that he was already that strong. Also, have you forgotten that Dragonball was a comedy long before it became an action story? Hell, the entire Saiyaman arc was a parody in the first place, it's supposed to feel ridiculous.

Two, maybe three pages at the most, covering this...

Even you pointed out that Toriyama steers away from romance stuff for various reasons. Goku and Chi-Chi got all of "Marry me." "Ok." so I fail to see your point.

He sat around on his butt for hours, while a silly old man danced around him. This kind of "Build up" screams "epic failure in near future." And guess what, he sits around stuttering and stammering while Buu absorbs his brother and mentor, and then fails to catch a darn earing. There is your epic failure, for you.

Again, your dislike of something does not work as supporting facts. Simply because you don't like the means through which Gohan obtained his powers doesn't mean that he wasn't intended to use those obtained powers to defeat Buu.

And if you want to talk 'epic failure', how about the fact Goku let the Earth get blown up when he could have just stopped Buu before he'd even become Super Buu?

[The rest of the post]

See, when this whole discussion started I assumed that it was a legit discussion. That you, like most normal people, just wanted some sort of evidence to back up a claim. My mistake. I have since realized that this is not the case. You're just in denial that it's even a possibility because you don't like the idea. And obviously if you don't like it then it just isn't possible that's what was intended.