How strong was Tien post King Kai?

mrkaizoku · Post by **mrkaizoku** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:55 pm

How in the world could that filler be accurate? Even if all of the humans made exceptional strides running the snake road, and training with Kaioh there is no way they would grow so much. For them to reach power levels of the Ginyuu Force they would have to make the most progress out of any characters we have seen. The highest estimate I've seen for Tenshinhan's battle power was 1830 (seems pretty accurate). Gohan and Kuririn's power while fighting the Ginyuu Force was (according to scouter readings) beyond 10,000. Vegeta's battle power was (again according to scouter readings) beyond 20,000. All three of them get decimated by Recoome. So at the high end Vegeta's battle power might be around 27,000, and that would put Recoome over 30,000 since he more than easily destroyed Vegeta, Gohan, and Kuririn. Tenshinhan and the rest have only been at Kaioh's planet a few days. There is absolutely no way that they would be able to make the kind of leaps they would have to to fight the Ginyuu Force. All of them together wouldn't be able to beat Recoome.

Hell, how much could Kaioh teach them in that time anyway?

USSJed · Post by **USSJed** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:03 pm

Anime Filler=Ignored.

If you want to believe the Filler, go for it, it shows Tien and Co beating the Ginyu Force so if you believe the Anime over the Manga theres nothing anyone can do to disprove that 50,000 increase.

Also, King Kai said a few thousand years.

Now, for the open minded, the same list I posted on the other sites. Choose your own Tien PL!

-------------------------------------
So here it is, the most accurate levels for Tien the net has ever seen!

Dragon Ball-Teinshinhan Saga
186
Daizenshuu

Dragon Ball-Piccolo jr Saga
250
Daizenshuu?

Dragon Ball Z-Raditz Saga
250
Probably his relaxed power, Manga Quote

Dragon Ball Z-Vegeta Saga
1830
Daizenshuu

Dragon Ball Z-Frieza Saga
55,000
Anime Estimate
1830
Manga Estimate

Now you all knew thoses ones, so here's the new stuff. You can choose your own Power Level for Tien.

First Number is Tien(Back from King Kai)
Second Number is Tien(Arrival of Mecha Frieza)
Third Number is Tien(Android Saga)
Fourth Number is Tien(Majin Saga)

Now keep in mind, this is only 1.5x increase per year. Tien could possibly be below that, or more likely above it.
-
10,000
15,000
50,625
894,975
-
16,000
24,000
81,000
1,383,961
-
20,000
30,000
101,250
1,729,951
-
25,000
37,500
126,562
2,162,438
-
30,000
45,000
151,875
2,594,926
-
35,000
52,500
177,187
3,027,414
-
40,000
60,000
202,500
3,459,902
-
45,000
67,500
227,812
3,892,390
-
50,000
75,000
253,125
4,324,877
-
First Number is Tien(Back from King Kai)
Second Number is Tien(Arrival of Mecha Frieza)
Third Number is Tien(Android Saga)
Fourth Number is Tien(Majin Saga)
-
55,000
82,500
276,437
4,757,365
-
60,000
90,000
3,034,750
5,189,853
-
70,000
105,000
354,375
6,054,830
-
75,000
112,500
379,687
6,487,316
-
90,000
135,000
455,625
7,784,780
-
100,000
150,000
506,250
8,649,755
-
120,000
180,000
607,500
10,379,707

Take your pick

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:19 pm

I totally disregard the filler and am not using it to prove any one's power level in any way.

Here's what I know (I am posting it so that you all can read it and tell me if I'm wrong anywhere because I'm sure I am in a few spots).

-Tien's power level went up approximately 1500 in the one year between the Raditz fight and the Nappa fight.

-One year of training under King Kaio is equal to several thousand (minimum 3000) years of training on earth.

-One day of training on King Kaio's planet equals 3000 x one day of training on Earth, or more.

-One day of training on earth for Tien will raise his power level approximately 4 points.

-So one day of training on King Kaio's planet for Tien will raise his power level about 12,000 points.

So all we need to know is exactly how many days Tien trained on King Kaio's planet. Please feel free to ask me how I came up with all of this information. Also please help me by pointing out any errors in my theory.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:37 pm

SSj_Rambo wrote:So all we need to know is exactly how many days Tenshinhan trained on King Kaio's planet.

265 days. 5 days while Goku was traveling to Namek, 260 days until he was revived.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:42 pm

Tyro wrote:
SSj_Rambo wrote:So all we need to know is exactly how many days Tenshinhan trained on King Kaio's planet.
265 days. 5 days while Goku was traveling to Namek, 260 days until he was revived.

Ya, and it seems that Goku's power level went up more like 10% each day as apposed to King Kaio's original statement, which (if the same for Tien) would be about 185 points per day. But since Goku is a Saiya-jin and Tien is a human I would say his would go up about 75-100 per day.

So [85 x number of day's Tien was on Kaio's + 1830=Tiens power after training with King Kaio].

mrkaizoku · Post by **mrkaizoku** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:46 pm

SSj_Rambo wrote:
-So one day of training on King Kaio's planet for Tenshinhan will raise his power level about 12,000 points.

So all we need to know is exactly how many days Tenshinhan trained on King Kaio's planet. Please feel free to ask me how I came up with all of this information. Also please help me by pointing out any errors in my theory.

Tyro wrote:
SSj_Rambo wrote:So all we need to know is exactly how many days Tenshinhan trained on King Kaio's planet.
265 days. 5 days while Goku was traveling to Namek, 260 days until he was revived.

That would put Tenshinhan after leaving Kaioh's planet according to your calculations SSjRambo at 3,180,000. No way in even the highest estimates could that possibly be right.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:24 pm

Why not? Piccolo, after training with Super Saiyan Goku for three years, had power that rivaled the Super Saiyans (implied by Kuririn, and combined with the fact that he easily bested #20). That puts him at at least 100,000,000, if you follow the Daizenshuu power level for Super Saiyan Goku. Why is a mere 3,000,000 a stretch for Tenshinhan, who came to fight the Jinzôningen, knowing that they were stronger than Freeza?

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:33 pm

SSj_Rambo wrote:-Tenshinhan's power level went up approximately 1500 in the one year between the Raditz fight and the Nappa fight.

This shows that Tenshinhan's powerlevel increases a lot faster than he gets credit for. This is more progress than Goku has ever made in a year up until this point. All the other Z fighters improved dramatically in that year too. So they would have improved at a similar rate in later sagas (not quite as high though, since Toriyama wanted to keep the Saiyans as the main focus).

mrkaizoku · Post by **mrkaizoku** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:22 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:Why not? Piccolo, after training with Super Saiyan Goku for three years, had power that rivaled the Super Saiyans (implied by Kuririn, and combined with the fact that he easily bested #20). That puts him at at least 100,000,000, if you follow the Daizenshuu power level for Super Saiyan Goku. Why is a mere 3,000,000 a stretch for Tenshinhan, who came to fight the Jinzôningen, knowing that they were stronger than Freeza?

Piccolo also fused with Nail on Namek, and later with God. You really can't compare him with Tenshinhan.

How in the world would Super Saiyajin Goku be at 100,000,000? Second form Freeza was only 1,000,000. Yes Freeza's power does get much stronger than that, but I highly doubt it gets in the 100,000,000 range. That's just ludicrous.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:26 pm

mrkaizoku wrote: How in the world would Super Saiyajin Goku be at 100,000,000? Second form Freeza was only 1,000,000. Yes Freeza's power does get much stronger than that, but I highly doubt it gets in the 100,000,000 range. That's just ludicrous.

If I remember correctly, didn't Freeza state his full power in his first form was "Around one million"?

I think the Daizenshuu is pretty accurate in this case, when you take Goku's Kaio Ken into account, Super Saiya-jin Goku's BP of 150,000,000 doesn't seem so outlandish.

mrkaizoku · Post by **mrkaizoku** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:35 pm

Captain Awesome wrote:
mrkaizoku wrote: How in the world would Super Saiyajin Goku be at 100,000,000? Second form Freeza was only 1,000,000. Yes Freeza's power does get much stronger than that, but I highly doubt it gets in the 100,000,000 range. That's just ludicrous.
If I remember correctly, didn't Freeza state his full power in his first form was "Around one million"?

I think the Daizenshuu is pretty accurate in this case, when you take Goku's Kaio Ken into account, Super Saiya-jin Goku's BP of 150,000,000 doesn't seem so outlandish.

Freeza's full power in his first form fighting against Nail was 530,000. After his first transformation his power level jumps to 1,000,000. After that they don't mention power levels by number any more, but it's pretty inconceivable that Goku and Freeza's power levels jump into the 100 million range.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:49 pm

You can actually work out the math for yourself easily.

Piccolo is over 1,000,000 after merging with Nail, since he bested second form Freeza, who's battle power was said to be "over 1,000,000." Third form Freeza is considerably stronger than that, as is his initial level of power when he reaches his fourth form. Vegeta is the only one who can see Freeza's movements when he powers up after being healed by Dende, so I'd put him at 2,000,000 at the very minimum.

Now, Freeza kills Vegeta with no effort at all, so he has to be at least at 3,000,000 at this point. When Goku is powered up after being healed in the healing tank, he is stated to be fighting evenly with Freeza. So, Goku's base level of 3,000,000 given in the Daizenshuu isn't a stretch at all.

From there, it's simple. Going by these rough calculations, Goku's Kaiô-Ken x20 attack would give him a battle power of about 60,000,000, as stated in the Daizenshuu. Freeza easily blocks Goku's Kaiô-Ken x20-enhanced Kamehameha with one hand, only saying that "That really hurt!!" This means that Freeza at 50% power would have to be over 60,000,000, meaning that at 100% power, he'd have to be over 120,000,000.

Goku's Super Saiyan reading of 150,000,000, therefore, is probably pretty spot-on. Meaning Piccolo, who could defeat a person somewhere near Super Saiyan Goku's level (who, at this point, is much stronger from his training), would have to have a battle power of at least 100,000,000 after his training.

This is reinforced by a statement by Kuririn:

"H-he's strong...! What kind of training did Piccolo do...? H-he's not even a Super Saiyan..."

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:09 am

Yeah. Freeza and Goku's powers were pretty damned high at the end of their battle. I take issue with the Daizenshuu's numbers, though, as I don't find them accurate. They fail to account for a few things and are a little high, IMO. My numbers, just for comparison:

Vegeta - 220,000
+ Zenkai - 1,760,000
Piccolo - 6,000
+ Fused with Nail - 1,200,000
+ W/out weights - 1,400,000
Goku - 2,000,000
+ KKx10 - 20,000,000
+ KKx20 - 40,000,000
+ Kamehameha - 45,000,000
+ SSJ - 100,000,000
Freeza - 530,000
+ 2nd Form - 1,060,000
+ Power-up 1 - 1,160,000
+ Power-up 2 - 1,300,000
+ 3rd Form - 1,590,000
+ Final Form - 2,120,000
+ 50% Power - 47,500,000
+ 100% Power - 95,000,000

As for Piccolo, I don't buy that he compared to the powers of SSJ Trunks, Goku, or Vegeta when he fought Gero. I figure he's closer to 30 million or so as I also don't think 19 or 20 are that powerful in and of themselves (which is why they have the absorption systems).

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:26 am

Xyex wrote:As for Piccolo, I don't buy that he compared to the powers of SSJ Trunks, Goku, or Vegeta when he fought Gero.

I agree. SSj power for Piccolo would be way too much. In fact, I find it really hard to believe that Piccolo could be anything other than equal(or possibly a little over) Goku's base form, considering that Goku was stronger than Piccolo when they began training.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:33 am

In response to everyone who quoted my original statement.

It would seem that King Kaio's statement of "one year of training on his planet equals several thousand years of training on Earth" must have been an exaggeration, a script error, or another one of king kaio's jokes. This proves my original statement to be incorrect.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
With this new information I present my new theory to how strong Tien was after training on King Kaio's planet.

-In 158 day's of training on King Kaio's planet Goku's power level increased approximately 20x.

-That means Goku's power level increased .1265x a day.

-So I predict that Tien's power level would increase about .0949x a day (75% as fast as Goku's, since he's only human).

-Since Tien trained for 265 days and his power increased by about .0949x each day and his original power level was 1830, his power level must have been around 46,021 after his training.

This is what I believe to be true and is not being presented as actual cannon, so don't take it as anything other than a suggestion to the origional question.

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:36 am

SSj_Rambo wrote: If anyone can confirm the number of days Tenshinhan trained on King Kaio's planet (from a Daizenshuu or some other cannon Japanese source) we can mathematically, and realistically prove what Tenshinhan's approximate power level would be post King Kaio's.

No you can't, because you're just taking a guess at Tenshinhan's progression and then just multiplying it by the number of days.

You're not going to prove anything, because in the end you're still just speculating.

Chibi Mystic Gohan · Post by **Chibi Mystic Gohan** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:37 am

He trained for about 265 and a half days, assuming that he trained each and every day. The numbers are in the manga.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 2:42 am

Captain Awesome wrote:No you can't, because you're just taking a guess at Tenshinhan's progression and then just multiplying it by the number of days.

You're not going to prove anything, because in the end you're still just speculating.

I actually believe that I am making a good assumption that is directly based on the proven increase that Goku achieved. Everything is based off of that, I don't see that as a guessing or speculating.

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:He trained for about 265 and a half days, assuming that he trained each and every day. The numbers are in the manga.

Thanks for the help, i edited it into my post.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:34 am

Hmm.
I like the stuff you came up with, SSJ_Rambo (it makes good RPG designing material, at least.

). Though that 0.75 estimate is a bit presumptuous (believable, maybe, but still on the arbitrary side).
If we want to compare Ten's training to Goku's, let's compare their Kami training as well.
Do we have Goku's increases between the fight with Daimao and the fight with Raditz?
Goku trained with Kami three years between the Piccolo Daimao battle and the 23rd tournament.
Tenshinhan trained for at most a year with Kami, but had the other humans there (Goku didn't).
Likewise, in the first few days on Kaio's, Ten could train with Yamcha, Chaozu, and maybe Piccolo.
But not for the rest.
I dunno, maybe trying to work in that information would help. Or maybe it'd just make the topic more confusing and mathy.

Though really, the around 46000 estimate doesn't seem too far-fetched...

Captain Awesome · Post by **Captain Awesome** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:05 am

SSj_Rambo wrote: I actually believe that I am making a good assumption that is directly based on the proven increase that Goku achieved. Everything is based off of that, I don't see that as a guessing or speculating.

You're basing your calculations on a figure you just made up (0.75)

That sounds like speculation to me.

*edit* I'm not trying to dissuade you from trying to figure things out, I just don't agree with your claims to your estimates being "realistic"

Kanzenshuu

How strong was Tien post King Kai?

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