"I will get my revenge, Kakkarot!"

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:19 pm

Thanos6 wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:Tragedy of its snuffing out?

It's a relief.

About the only way to redeem the Saiyans would be to slaughter/imprison the adults and raise the kids from scratch.
Like the humans in Dragon World was peaceful and was kind to everyone. Piccolo-Daimo would not have even born if the humans had not done what they did to the Nameccian child that became Kami and Piccolo. if you would ask him all of the humans could not have been redeemed and needed to snuffed out.
I never said humanity was perfect. It's nowhere near it. But it's also nowhere near the same scale of genocidal evil.

Because they lacked space travel, if they had it I bet they would have just as bad as the Saiyans.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:20 pm

I really, really, really disagree with that.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:24 pm

Thanos6 wrote:I really, really, really disagree with that.

You can disagree many more times over but the humans in Dragonball are not too different from real world humans and you know how we (that is humanity) are.

Zuhalter2000 · Post by **Zuhalter2000** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:28 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:I really, really, really disagree with that.
You can disagree many more times over but the humans in Dragonball are not too different from real world humans and you know how we (that is humanity) are.

Humans are not as ruthless as Saiyans. Yes, there are bad people that would do that but I believe that there are more good than bad, the bad just seem more prominent than they really are.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:28 pm

Thanos6 wrote: I never said humanity was perfect. It's nowhere near it. But it's also nowhere near the same scale of genocidal evil.

Individually? Probably not. Taken as a whole? There is some evidence for that..

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:28 pm

Indeed. But the Saiyans have the genetically built-in urge to fight and the culturally built-in urge to kill. Unless humanity actively tried to be space-faring murdering bastards, I doubt they could match up. Anyway, from what we've seen, there's plenty of good and neutral humans to cancel out the evil ones. Son Goku aside, we don't see any good or even neutral Saiyans.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:32 pm

Thanos6 wrote:Indeed. But the Saiyans have the genetically built-in urge to fight and the culturally built-in urge to kill. Unless humanity actively tried to be space-faring murdering bastards, I doubt they could match up. Anyway, from what we've seen, there's plenty of good and neutral humans to cancel out the evil ones. Son Goku aside, we don't see any good or even neutral Saiyans.

Yes, but who are we to judge? Can we as individuals really condemn an entire race as evil? Toriyama portrayed the Saiyajin's as aggressive and brutal, but who is to say that Nappa was totally evil, or that Bardock was totally evil?

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:33 pm

Thanos6 wrote:Indeed. But the Saiyans have the genetically built-in urge to fight and the culturally built-in urge to kill. Unless humanity actively tried to be space-faring murdering bastards, I doubt they could match up. Anyway, from what we've seen, there's plenty of good and neutral humans to cancel out the evil ones. Son Goku aside, we don't see any good or even neutral Saiyans.

Because there were generations of indoctrination or brainwashing, yet there is evidence that change can occur. Tarble is an example and Vegeta at the end of Z and in GT, he made the most dramatic change of all.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:34 pm

Horgus wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:Indeed. But the Saiyans have the genetically built-in urge to fight and the culturally built-in urge to kill. Unless humanity actively tried to be space-faring murdering bastards, I doubt they could match up. Anyway, from what we've seen, there's plenty of good and neutral humans to cancel out the evil ones. Son Goku aside, we don't see any good or even neutral Saiyans.
Yes, but who are we to judge?

I'm me.

And the one thing I share with Vegeta is pure arrogance, lol.

EDIT:

Saiyan-Professor wrote:
Thanos6 wrote:Indeed. But the Saiyans have the genetically built-in urge to fight and the culturally built-in urge to kill. Unless humanity actively tried to be space-faring murdering bastards, I doubt they could match up. Anyway, from what we've seen, there's plenty of good and neutral humans to cancel out the evil ones. Son Goku aside, we don't see any good or even neutral Saiyans.
Because there were generations of indoctrination or brainwashing, yet there is evidence that change can occur. Tarble is an example and Vegeta at the end of Z and in GT, he made the most dramatic change of all.

Indeed. And that was what, 20 odd years for both of them? And note that both were alone and "shacking up" with members of other species. You can help them one at a time, but I don't think you can on a species-wide level.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:35 pm

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:43 pm

I added Tarble in the list because we do not know as of yet if his story is in main continuity or would fall in the movie universe.

Thanos6 wrote:Indeed. And that was what, 20 odd years for both of them? And note that both were alone and "shacking up" with members of other species. You can help them one at a time, but I don't think you can on a species-wide level.

That proves that if they had access to those that could have a positive influence on them then they could change for the better. Now since the Saiyans respect power and those that are stronger than they are. How do you think the Saiyans would have turned out in the long run if someone at Freeza’s combat power or greater came along and aligned with them but this individual had the temperament of Kakarrot, Kami or later Piccolo?

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:45 pm

That would be a very good thing. But again, it would take an entire generation, for old Saiyans to soften and young Saiyans to grow up as good guys.

Now, it might be hard for even "good Freeza" to keep this plague of monsters under control for that long.

Though if he can, he's basically got himself an entire planet of super-Jedi to enforce justice through the cosmos, lol.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:54 pm

Thanos6 wrote:That would be a very good thing. But again, it would take an entire generation, for old Saiyans to soften and young Saiyans to grow up as good guys.

Now, it might be hard for even "good Freeza" to keep this plague of monsters under control for that long.

Though if he can, he's basically got himself an entire planet of super-Jedi to enforce justice through the cosmos, lol.

I would think that it would take more than a generation but the point still stands. Moreover, why would the Saiyans as a whole still be considered monsters, if they were progressing towards change? I think one of the themes or morals we learn in Dragonball is that change and redemption can occur no matter what a person’s past was like. Kakarrot, Vegeta and I guess now Tarble is the living embodiments of said theme. We should not be quick to judge anyone and one of the best ways to understand another individual’s point of view is to walk a mile in his or her shoes.

Addendum: The whole Saiyan-Jedi concept is not a bad idea.

Thanos6 · Post by **Thanos6** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:56 pm

*slips on Saiyan combat boots*

Because in all the time it takes to change them, for the vast majority of that time, they're still going to want to kill stuff, so he'll have to find someway to interdict them to Vegetasei and then keep them from killing each other in frustration.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:08 pm

Thanos6 wrote:*slips on Saiyan combat boots*

Because in all the time it takes to change them, for the vast majority of that time, they're still going to want to kill stuff, so he'll have to find someway to interdict them to Vegetasei and then keep them from killing each other in frustration.

True, but that is possible, there are many ways in which one can alleviate aggression.

I am getting back on topic:

Sprite Satan wrote:So what gives? Does Vegeta mean that Goku gave him the most trouble, if so, why not say that? Is Kakkarot the new short hand for "Goku, his son, the bald guy and the fat guy with the sword"? Is he simply skipping over Gohan and following the DNA line back to its source; is he really blaming Goku's sperm, and by extension, Goku himself for his woes? Perhaps if he had a copy of the family tree at hand, he'd be cursing Bardock for fathering Goku for fathering Gohan. Is it because Vegeta's pride is so much that even attempting to comprehend a non pure Saiyan defeating him (or at least playing a role) would cause him to combust in his pod?

I believe that it was personal between him and Kakarrot and then because of what happened at the Cell Games especially in light of Vegeta’s closing statements at the end, Son Gohan was added to the list. However, after the 7 years Son Gohan was not viewed as a threat to his Saiyan pride anymore because of Son Gohan’s lazy attitude towards training, which made his combat power slip. Thus, it was back where it began with Kakarrot. Reread the statements made during the second fight between Vegeta and Kakarrot in the manga and watch the anime with the Japanese subs during the Buu Saga, I believe that it will shed some light on the situation.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:10 pm

Thanos6 wrote: raise the kids from scratch.

Or drop them all headfirst into ravines.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:53 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Thanos6 wrote: raise the kids from scratch.
Or drop them all headfirst into ravines.

Boy, you people are no better than Saiyans with that attitude. Looks like someone been watching Quigley Down Under.

Horgus · Post by **Horgus** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:26 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote: Yes. 1000% agreed there, for everything except for the part about the Saiya-jin race getting wiped out as being a "tragedy". I'd call that less of a tragedy and more "good riddance to a bunch of homicidal psychos."

It's a tragedy in the sense that any time that life is taken, it is a tragedy.

Thanos6 wrote:That's not a tragedy. It's like Stalin dropping a nuke on SS headquarters. It's evil but at the same time I'm not going to be shedding a tear.

For example, the self righteous amongst us who believe that we can instantly ascertain who deserves to live and who does not might agree with this, but a question I would ask to someone of the above sentiment is this:

in order to 'nuke the SS HQ', how many innocent children were caught in the blast, how many neutral and unoffending bystanders had to die so that a perceived evil could be eliminated?

My point is is that we should not be so quick to declare the Saiyajin's to be totally evil. They committed numerous evil and barbaric acts, and spread Freeza's influence. Their eventual destruction may in a certain sense have been justified, however, in my eyes it was a tragedy all the same.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:30 pm

A tragedy that their thirst for battle eventually led to the deaths of other and of themselves?

One wonders how things would have turned out had they found ways to take part in planetary tournaments or something like so.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:42 pm

Horgus wrote:For example, the self righteous amongst us who believe that we can instantly ascertain who deserves to live and who does not might agree with this, but a question I would ask to someone of the above sentiment is this:

in order to 'nuke the SS HQ', how many innocent children were caught in the blast, how many neutral and unoffending bystanders had to die so that a perceived evil could be eliminated?

My point is is that we should not be so quick to declare the Saiyajin's to be totally evil. They committed numerous evil and barbaric acts, and spread Freeza's influence. Their eventual destruction may in a certain sense have been justified, however, in my eyes it was a tragedy all the same.

You are correct to a degree those that judge in the manner that you spoke of are no better than the Saiyans. To see any act of genocide and cheer about it or applaud the ones that did it are taking the same attitude that they claim is evil.

JulieYBM wrote:....One wonders how things would have turned out had they found ways to take part in planetary tournaments or something like so.

This is an example of what I was talking about in a previous post concerning how the Saiyans could have assuaged their aggression if a positive force influenced them.