Akira Toriyama Quitting Dragonball

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Bussani
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Post by Bussani » Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:51 pm

Bejiita wrote:(just an excuse for Toriyama to bring in the fusions and a way to make the Buu sage a bit longer and better).
Just an excuse? I'd say it was a pretty valid one. He could have destroyed Buu, but then the kids wouldn't have learned anything. Goku could only be around for 1 more day, he wasn't planning on coming back. It's not too different to how Roshi wanted to beat Goku and Kuririn so they would continue their training, Goku hoped that the kids would take up the mantel. Besides, if things had stayed as they were (just Fat Buu), they probably would have managed just fine.

Goku's running out of energy was a miscalculation on his part, because SSJ3 wastes more energy than it can build up when you're alive.

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Post by Rory » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:18 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:We hate on them because Son Gohan, Kakarrot and Son Goten suck Ôzaru size ass. :)
I can understand disliking Goten.. Gohan gets a LOT of character development, but still, you're allowed to dislike him.. how the hell can Son Goku " suck ass "? He's the single strongest fighter in the entire manga, every single ounce of strength he has, he gained himself. He used ONE power-up to defeat Piccolo Daimao, and that's it for the entire manga, when he was just a boy. He's a fighter, through and through, plays by the rules, and becomes the single most powerfuly trained character in the entire series.

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Post by Bussani » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:22 pm

Rory wrote:I can understand disliking Goten.. Gohan gets a LOT of character development, but still, you're allowed to dislike him.. how the hell can Son Goku " suck ass "? He's the single strongest fighter in the entire manga, every single ounce of strength he has, he gained himself. He used ONE power-up to defeat Piccolo Daimao, and that's it for the entire manga, when he was just a boy. He's a fighter, through and through, plays by the rules, and becomes the single most powerfuly trained character in the entire series.
It all comes down to the fact that Goku (and Gohan) always saves the day despite being a bit of an idiot (or a major idiot, if you don't mind insulting him) and Vegeta always comes out on bottom just so someone else can save the day. At least, that's how Vegeta fans put it.

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Post by Rory » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:40 pm

Bussani wrote:It all comes down to the fact that Goku (and Gohan) always saves the day despite being a bit of an idiot (or a major idiot, if you don't mind insulting him) and Vegeta always comes out on bottom just so someone else can save the day. At least, that's how Vegeta fans put it.
Because Vegeta is an absolute prick, who always gets what he deserves, he even says his heart is " pure evil ", you think that should be rewarded? Don't get me wrong, I friggin' love Vegeta, he's a really great character, with a great backstory, and so much development, yet still, he deserves everything he gets. Goku on the other hand, is pure, and fights just for the enjoyment of becoming stronger, and protecting those he loves. In a shonen anime, that is the kind of character who will be rewarded in the long run, I mean, in all honesty, how do you expect Dragonball to end, with Vegeta killing Goku, and reclaiming his "pride"?
Most people who are Vegeta fanboys to the extent of mocking Goku, have never read the first 16 volumes of Dragonball.

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Post by Saiyan-Professor » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:48 pm

Rory wrote:
Bussani wrote:It all comes down to the fact that Goku (and Gohan) always saves the day despite being a bit of an idiot (or a major idiot, if you don't mind insulting him) and Vegeta always comes out on bottom just so someone else can save the day. At least, that's how Vegeta fans put it.
Because Vegeta is an absolute prick, who always gets what he deserves, he even says his heart is " pure evil ", you think that should be rewarded? Don't get me wrong, I friggin' love Vegeta, he's a really great character, with a great backstory, and so much development, yet still, he deserves everything he gets. Goku on the other hand, is pure, and fights just for the enjoyment of becoming stronger, and protecting those he loves. In a shonen anime, that is the kind of character who will be rewarded in the long run, I mean, in all honesty, how do you expect Dragonball to end, with Vegeta killing Goku, and reclaiming his "pride"?
Most people who are Vegeta fanboys to the extent of mocking Goku, have never read the first 16 volumes of Dragonball.
There are a number of instances where Kakarrot did idiotic things and he should have paid for it but no one mentions it, they always point at Vegeta. There was instances where Vegeta should have been stronger but somehow Kakarrot and Son Gohan did (Room of Space and Time during the Cell Saga). There was more to Vegeta’s actions besides being a “prick”. Overall Kakarrot is an annoying main character at least Naruto is more entertaining.
The Saiyans are very much like the Klingons and Jem'Hadar.

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Post by Bussani » Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:57 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote:There are a number of instances where Kakarrot did idiotic things and he should have paid for it but no one mentions it, they always point at Vegeta.
I still say they're all idiots in different ways. Except Piccolo. Piccolo knows everything.

I mean, people have pointed out in this thread that Goku made the mistake of not finishing off Buu when he probably should have. Vegeta made the same mistake with Cell, albeit for different reasons. Gohan made the exact same mistake as Vegeta.
There was instances where Vegeta should have been stronger but somehow Kakarrot and Son Gohan did (Room of Space and Time during the Cell Saga).
Well, he did take a totally different approach to reaching greater strengths than they did. But I don't really know how much stronger Goku and Gohan were meant to be than him at that point. They still didn't stand much of a chance against Cell, really. The only reason Goku lasted so long against Perfect Cell was because Cell was holding back, and the only reason Gohan did any better was because Cell pushed him over the edge into SSJ2.

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Post by Rory » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:07 pm

Saiyan-Professor wrote: at least Naruto is more entertaining.
This is where I contradict myself:
You LIKE Naruto? Holy shit, how'd you manage that?!
Yeah, of course Son has done some stupid things, it's Dragonball, everybody fucks up, Goku lets Vegeta fly away when he should've had him killed, it's the Saya-Jin within him that couldn't watch someone so powerful die without having another shot to prove himself.. that's probly' the only truely selfish thing Goku has ever done.. except Oob. Vegeta on the other hand has lived a life of selfish decisions, most which we don't even see in the story of Dragonball.

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Post by Saiyan-Professor » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:11 pm

Rory wrote:
Saiyan-Professor wrote: at least Naruto is more entertaining.
This is where I contradict myself:
You LIKE Naruto? Holy shit, how'd you manage that?!
Yeah, of course Son has done some stupid things, it's Dragonball, everybody fucks up, Goku lets Vegeta fly away when he should've had him killed, it's the Saya-Jin within him that couldn't watch someone so powerful die without having another shot to prove himself.. that's probly' the only truely selfish thing Goku has ever done.. except Oob. Vegeta on the other hand has lived a life of selfish decisions, most which we don't even see in the story of Dragonball.
You need to check the archives because we went over this whole issue not too long ago on a number of occasions. Bussani touched on some of them and I am not about to go over them again. For the record, I like Naruto a lot more than Kakarrot.
The Saiyans are very much like the Klingons and Jem'Hadar.

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Post by Bussani » Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:19 pm

Rory wrote:that's probly' the only truely selfish thing Goku has ever done.. except Oob.
Also agreeing with Vegeta about not destroying the androids before they were active, because he wanted to fight them.

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Post by Deep Thought » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:23 am

Vegeta is a horrible, horrible character. On another forum, someone said that he should be impaled by a rock.I agreed. Text wall time.

The only thing that goes on in that pea-brain sized noggin of his is "DEFEAT KAKARROT, TRAIN, NEED TO KILL KAKARROT BECAUSE THAT WILL SOLVE ALL OF MY INSECURITIES AND I WILL BE THE BEST!" Ugh, it makes me cringe, it really does. In the Freeza saga, that wasn't his only goal, but in the Freeza Saga, Vegeta was actually alright. I'll get into that later.

One of the problems that I have with Vegeta is that his role is uninspired. Piccolo already had the "Villain who wants revenge on Goku." The only thing is, Piccolo's reasons were much deeper than Vegeta's. Piccolo wanted to take revenge on Goku because his father died and it was his last dying wish then their would be an heir to destroy Goku. Vegeta wanted to kill Goku because he was butthurt over losing to him. That's basically it.

Another thing that I hate about Vegeta is his premature mood swings. Remember the end of the Freeza Saga? Where Vegeta tells Goku that Freeza NEEDS to die by Sayajin's hands. It's a somewhat touching scene for us all, especially if you saw it for the first time. Then, in the Trunks Saga, Vegeta rages over the fact that Goku beat Freeza by becoming a Super Sayajin. That's pretty fucking annoying, but that's not all. Towards the end of the Cell Saga, Vegeta admits that he could never surpass Goku. Then, in the Buu Saga, he goes on about how he is going to beat Goku! If that wasn't enough, then at the end of the Buu Saga he again admits that he could never surpass Goku. BUT, at the end of the Kazenban manga, Vegeta goes on about how he is going to defeat Goku! FUCK!

Another thing that annoys me is that he is responsible for a lot of bad things. In the Freeza Saga, he cockily urges Freeza to transform. However, this is kind of minor and can be debated. However, in the Cell Saga, Vegeta let Cell turn Perfect. Pretty fucking unacceptable. However, the core of this shit pile lies in the Buu Saga. Vegeta HELPS Buu hatch, puts lives at risk, and sells his soul. Why? TO FIGHT GOKU! That's it. Not only that, but they might've fought anyway. However, Vegeta was too impatient to wait. Sounds like we're dealing with a brat that wants to go to the amusement park really badly to me.

Another thing that annoys me about Vegeta is his motivations, because they are untrue. Goku never even beat him in the Sayajin Saga. Vegeta beat him as soon as he transformed into an Oozaru. It was technically Kurrin's fault for throwing the Genaki Dama (keep in mind that I doubt that Vegeta even know that that Genkai Dama belonged to Goku), and Gohan's fault for finishing the job. One could say that Vegeta was pissed at Goku because he went Super Sayajin before he did, but look at the Freeza Saga. When Vegeta's dying, he wants to believe REALLY REALLY badly that Goku will beat Freeza and that he is the Super Sayajin. So, what the hell?

Some other things that annoy me about Vegeta is his appearance. The midget look, I'm neutral towards midgets, but the looks is very annoying on Vegeta. That impudent fucking smirk annoys me to all hell, as well. In addition to his bad motivations, pre-mature mood swings, and lackluster character, another thing that annoys me is his fighting style. Vegeta lacks any unique moves. Galick Gun is a purple Kamehameha that's even harder to prepare, Big Bang Attack is a circular Galick Gun and Final Flash is a yellow Galic Gun. Cmon, Toriyama, you can do better than that.

So, yeah, really shitty character doesn't deserve any love in the main story. I do agree that Piccolo and Tien are under-appreciated, though.

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Post by Bussani » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:48 am

Deep Thought wrote:The only thing that goes on in that pea-brain sized noggin of his is "DEFEAT KAKARROT, TRAIN, NEED TO KILL KAKARROT BECAUSE THAT WILL SOLVE ALL OF MY INSECURITIES AND I WILL BE THE BEST!" Ugh, it makes me cringe, it really does. In the Freeza saga, that wasn't his only goal, but in the Freeza Saga, Vegeta was actually alright. I'll get into that later.
In the Freeza saga he couldn't care less about Goku. He was focused on defeating Freeza. He disliked Goku for being so close to his strength despite being a low class Saiyajin, but that's about it. His obsession with surpassing Goku didn't really kick in until Goku surpassed Freeza, I think, because that was really the moment that Vegeta realized Goku had surpassed him too. Before that, with kaioken, Goku had been able to scratch Vegeta. Then he went overboard and became an Oozaru. Even if he hadn't done that, he was still stronger than Goku already.

[quote[One of the problems that I have with Vegeta is that his role is uninspired. Piccolo already had the "Villain who wants revenge on Goku." The only thing is, Piccolo's reasons were much deeper than Vegeta's. Piccolo wanted to take revenge on Goku because his father died and it was his last dying wish then their would be an heir to destroy Goku. Vegeta wanted to kill Goku because he was butthurt over losing to him. That's basically it.[/quote]

As I said, it started out more like, "That low class Saiyajin became the legendary Super Saiyajin rather than Saiyajin royalty!?" Once he became a Super Saiyajin as well he was satisfied until Cell surpassed him. Then he was arguably more worried about getting stronger than Cell than anything else, until Gohan showed him that there was still something beyond the power of a Super Saiyajin.
Another thing that annoys me is that he is responsible for a lot of bad things. In the Freeza Saga, he cockily urges Freeza to transform. However, this is kind of minor and can be debated. However, in the Cell Saga, Vegeta let Cell turn Perfect. Pretty fucking unacceptable. However, the core of this shit pile lies in the Buu Saga. Vegeta HELPS Buu hatch, puts lives at risk, and sells his soul. Why? TO FIGHT GOKU! That's it. Not only that, but they might've fought anyway. However, Vegeta was too impatient to wait. Sounds like we're dealing with a brat that wants to go to the amusement park really badly to me.
Yep, he makes some pretty bad, selfish choices. But so does Goku, and Gohan to an extent.
Another thing that annoys me about Vegeta is his motivations, because they are untrue. Goku never even beat him in the Sayajin Saga. Vegeta beat him as soon as he transformed into an Oozaru.
Like I said above, he was angry at Goku, but more concerned about Freeza at that point. That was the whole reason he came to Earth in the first place. Oozaru was overkill, Goku had wrecked his body just doing a big enough kaioken to make Vegeta bleed a little. Vegeta would have won in the long run.

In short, Vegeta isn't perfect. He's an asshole really, obsessive, selfish. But hey, being an unlikable bastard doesn't necessarily make you a bad character. :)

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Post by Mr. Announcer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:00 am

I wouldn't consider Vegeta a bad character either, but I wouldn't give him more credit than Gokuh or Gohan. Sure they may make some of the same mistakes as Vegeta but when it comes to being a total ass about it, Vegeta wins the prize.

Does having good intentions along with wanting to get stronger make them bad characters? I mean, Vegeta "shining" would pretty much consist of him bragging and parading around. He kind of needs people putting him down, otherwise he wouldn't have much of a role as the broody rival character, and without that what does he have?
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Post by Rocketman » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:21 am

Deep Thought wrote:However, in the Cell Saga, Vegeta let Cell turn Perfect. Pretty fucking unacceptable.
How come nobody ever mentions/hates on Krillin letting Cell become Perfect?

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Post by Bussani » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:38 am

Rocketman wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:However, in the Cell Saga, Vegeta let Cell turn Perfect. Pretty fucking unacceptable.
How come nobody ever mentions/hates on Krillin letting Cell become Perfect?
I guess because Kuririn letting Cell become perfect was a side effect of not wanting to kill 18 -- Kuririn didn't want Cell to become perfect. Vegeta, on the other hand, wanted it.

But yeah, add Kuririn to the list of people that make questionable decisions. Pretty ironic since he's the one who thought they should have killed Vegeta when they had the chance, but...well, that's what a pretty face and figure does to a guy I suppose.

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Post by Ex-Dubbie369 » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:40 am

Rocketman wrote:How come nobody ever mentions/hates on Krillin letting Cell become Perfect?
Because we realize that Kuririn had become useless fodder at that point. Plus, his motive was slightly more justifiable than Vegeta's.

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Post by Rocketman » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:54 am

Ex-Dubbie369 wrote:Plus, his motive was slightly more justifiable than Vegeta's.
Lust more justifiable than pride?

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Post by Bussani » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:56 am

Rocketman wrote:
Ex-Dubbie369 wrote:Plus, his motive was slightly more justifiable than Vegeta's.
Lust more justifiable than pride?
If his lust was for Perfect Cell and he purposely let him attain that form then we'd blame him for it just as much.

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Post by Rocketman » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:08 am

Bussani wrote:If ... he purposely let him attain that form
Well...

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Post by Mr. Announcer » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:19 am

Well the difference is this: We can understand Kuririn because while he wanted to stop Cell, he didn't want to do it an "innocent" person's expense whereas Vegeta was just curious and didn't care if everyone got screwed over. For Kuririn to match that he'd have to literally offer #18 up to cell and be like "Please, absorb her," (which I suppose one could argue he did by being freaking weak) but hey, he genuinely tried to prevent it by helping her escape.
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Post by Rocketman » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:23 am

Mr. Announcer wrote:Well the difference is this: We can understand Kuririn because while he wanted to stop Cell, he didn't want to do it an "innocent" person's expense
No, he didn't want to do it because she kissed him on the cheek once. If it had been 17 there, Krillin woulda whacked the button with no problem.

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